Christopher Ambler wrote:
There have been some very interesting and impassioned arguments both for and against escorts presented on this site. Here's why I don't allow escorts anymore - those of you who insist that escorts should be allowed, I invite you to help me overcome this hurdle.

Simply put, my liability insurance does not cover them if they're not my employee or a contractor under my pay. Even in a trade shoot, the model is covered as we have a contract that specifies compensation, even if that compensation is prints. The model is a party to my business. I've specifically asked my insurance agent if the model's escort is covered, and the answer I got is, quite clearly, no. Makeup and hair artists under my pay are covered as are my assistants.

So there's your answer, and there's why I don't allow escorts: I'm not prepared to risk my business and my personal assets on the chance that an escort might slip and fall.

I'd purchase more expensive coverage that would include non-shoot personnel, but when I ask the escort to pay their pro-rata portion of that premium, they'd look at me funny, don't you think?

If you have a solution to this that doesn't involve my purchasing more liability insurance or taking the risk of paying the escort and making them a contractor, I'm all ears.

You're the reason why there's so much anger around on MM -_- you keep making escort topic stuff...you must really hate escorts

Fiona 90 wrote:
You're the reason why there's so much anger around on MM -_- you keep making escort topic stuff...you must really hate escorts

I've never started an escort topic before this one. You must have me confused with someone else.

215 Studios wrote:
Pay the escort $1.00 as a contractor and then charge a "set fee" or what ever you wanna call it from all the contractors of $1.00.  Charge this to all contractors.  MUAs, Stylists, models, everyone.  Just make sure you increase your payment to the affore mentioned contractors by $1.00 to cover this "set fee."

Unfortunately, such an arrangement will quickly be found to be fraud if an insurance claim is ever actually made. It is a micropayment for the specific purpose of creating insurance coverage, and not actually making an employee or contractor out of the escort.

I see the logic in your suggestion, but it would create more risk, not less.

Jean-Philippe Martin wrote:
...l and it falls under your liability coverage.

How do you figure that part?

The escort walks through the door of my studio and slips. There's no coverage. Giving someone money to go and get coffee does not make them an employee or contractor.

Seriously, I'm not asking for a "how do I get around this" answer. I'm looking for an honest, legal solution to the problem.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Seriously, I'm not asking for a "how do I get around this" answer. I'm looking for an honest, legal solution to the problem.

I think that if a random person comes in to your studio to ask for help for a jump start and trips or slips, this person isn't covered... I think you should consider changing insurance. That's the solution.
Because it means that you'd have everyone sign the contract before stepping in... and I am sure that you don't have the people signing contracts outside the door.
Therefore they are not covered until they sign, you are deep in big legal dilemna here.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Unfortunately, such an arrangement will quickly be found to be fraud if an insurance claim is ever actually made. It is a micropayment for the specific purpose of creating insurance coverage, and not actually making an employee or contractor out of the escort.

I see the logic in your suggestion, but it would create more risk, not less.

Then the same when you are not paying models... it does not cover you.
Make the sign and pay them a dollar. Take a shoot of them. They just became your light test model. You are cover. Already?

Christopher Ambler wrote:

I've never started an escort topic before this one. You must have me confused with someone else.

Oh I just noticed you didnt start it -_- But you were very active in it...

Sigh I think if you search escorts on MM you'll see like 1000000000000000 topics on it...I swear Tyler should just make a forum part just for it.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
The escort walks through the door of my studio and slips.

Clumsy freakin escorts...

Christopher Ambler wrote:
I'd purchase more expensive coverage that would include non-shoot personnel, but when I ask the escort to pay their pro-rata portion of that premium, they'd look at me funny, don't you think?

If you have a solution to this that doesn't involve my purchasing more liability insurance or taking the risk of paying the escort and making them a contractor, I'm all ears.

What about :
1. Have them sign a TFP agreement - then they are covered, same as the model. Or have them hold a reflector as "Intern" training for a future career?
2. Have them sign a waiver.

I have no idea if #2 will actually work , and #1 might be morally ambiguous - but there are two options.

Ric

Personally, I like the idea in the first part, bill them for the additional cost (Snap a picture of the funny look when you explain what "pro-rata" means! It might make a good book)

Ric

Christopher Ambler wrote:
If someone comes in to my studio to ask for a jump start, they're covered under blanket liability - but if a model brings an escort and s/he stays beyond the casual entry, that creates a very different liability profile.

They don't stay long if you send them out for coffee. Your claim is not valid.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Paying them does not create an employee/contractor relationship and would be seen by an insurance company as an attempt to create coverage where none was paid-for.

Paying someone that does something that is useful during your shoot and having them signing a form covers you. Your point is not valid.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Even a trade shoot, as I said, is compensation for bona fide purposes (modeling). Having the escort sign a release and contract for a trade shoot would, again, be seen as a way to get around the insurance unless it were, indeed, an actual shoot. Clearly, it would not be.

It is not how it is seen, it is a fact. If you sign a TFP release and you do ONE picture the contract is bidding and you are covered.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
So again, these are all great suggestions as to how to "get around" the liability situation, but that's all they are. I've even had this discussion with my insurance agent who came up with even more ways to get around it, all of which we agreed would be great, in theory, until I had an actual claim, at which point the claim would be denied, at best, and I'd be found to be acting in a fraudulent manner, at worst.

None are fraudulent unless you are simply trying to have NO escort on the shoot.
You are trying to justify NO escort by a legal way and you are managing to justify. That's why any suggestion that anyone will propose will look suspicious.

If you want no escort, just choose model with no escort. Tell them of course you can bring an escort but they will have to wait outside the door. If they don't mind waiting in the car, no problem. You don't need to give them legal blabla or personnal reasons. If they really want to shoot, they'll go with no escort - or with an escort that waits outside.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
If you have a solution to this that doesn't involve my purchasing more liability insurance or taking the risk of paying the escort and making them a contractor, I'm all ears.

I was going to mention for you to make up a separate contract for them, but it seems as if that isn't what you want to do. Therefore, I have no idea what to tell you. Sorry.

~Chantelle~
www.simplychantelle.com

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Furthermore, if an escort showed up and I sent them out for coffee, do you expect they'd be gone for the full three to four hours of the shoot? What would I have them do when they come back with the coffee?

Tell them that you wanted a cappuccino, not a latte... send them back... hahaha. LOL.

I don't know what to tell you... maybe, find a state where escort are illegal... Hahahaha LOL!!!!!

What if the model pays the escort????

Jean-Philippe Martin wrote:
What if the model pays the escort????

A contract between the model and the escort isn't binding on me, or my insurance company.

Ania.K wrote:
I just think you like being alone with naked models... but what do I know... lol. I mean, I'd be curious to hear the statistics on photoshoot fatalities...

We'll never know, since I have two assistants and usually a hair and/or makeup artist at every shoot.

When I want to be alone with a naked model, I simply go home - my wife is a model, and she'll get naked for me any time I ask.

Ania.K wrote:
Which one is she on your site?

She's in my current avatar, actually. Also, this image https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=551356

Christopher Ambler wrote:

She's in my current avatar, actually. Also, this image https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=551356

Well, I hope she cleans the kitchen once she is done cooking....
Is she the one that asked for an escort?

Christopher Ambler wrote:

She's in my current avatar, actually. Also, this image https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=551356

LMAO.Guess thaqt blows any chance of you just being a GWC..

Heres a thought...

Big sign

NO ESCORTS PERIOD

My insurance is the same, though even if it covered them, I still wouldnt allow escorts.

I simply dont like them...

Simple and plain..no explaination required...

It's nice to be the boss...

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Or, more accurately, my agent tells me that I would not be covered.

Furthermore, if an escort showed up and I sent them out for coffee, do you expect they'd be gone for the full three to four hours of the shoot? What would I have them do when they come back with the coffee?

Time for a change of insurance companies... I just talked to mine because you put a shred of doubt in my policy, and according to my agent it was unwarranted doubt. I have a very basic policy, but anyone that wanders into my studio is covered, regardless of what they are there for. That, as my agent explained it to me, is what an insurance policy is all about. Why have the insurance if it doesn't cover that... seems to me like you are throwing your money away. As long as the escort does not come into the "work area" where I am shooting, and stays in the reception area, I am covered. I never allowed them in the studio while I was busy  shooting anyway... tried that once, but they were too much of a distraction. They may stay in the lobby all day for all I care though, just as long as they stay out of my friggin way and don't ask me stupid questions like "what equipment do you use?".

Ever walked into a mechanic's shop and seen that sign warning customers that they need to stay out of the work area? It is a very simple solution.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Furthermore, if an escort showed up and I sent them out for coffee, do you expect they'd be gone for the full three to four hours of the shoot? What would I have them do when they come back with the coffee?

I think you'd also be responsible for them while they are gone because they are doing business for you.  Meaning, if they have a car accident, than file a claim against you instead of their own insurance.

I have State Farm, but if I have an accident while driving my car for business purposes, my work is responsible for my car.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
Please don't hate me!

Hahaha, I DO NOT allow that kind of escort in my reception area!

Fiona 90 wrote:

You're the reason why there's so much anger around on MM -_- you keep making escort topic stuff...you must really hate escorts

No, this is a topic of strong interest to everyone.  Chris doesn't express anger nor does he express hatred.  We need to communicate about this.

215 Studios wrote:
Pay the escort $1.00 as a contractor and then charge a "set fee" or what ever you wanna call it from all the contractors of $1.00.  Charge this to all contractors.  MUAs, Stylists, models, everyone.  Just make sure you increase your payment to the affore mentioned contractors by $1.00 to cover this "set fee."

-Major

Excellent!  I like your progressive and positive thinking!   

I would ask Chris this ... what about those of us photographers who do not have insurance?  I have been shooting for over 20 years without it.  I have not had a single accident, nor problem with models or escorts.  I do know an acquaintance who sadly lost his wife to electrocution when she was shooting in a hot tub.  She was the professional photographer and fell in with the light.  This happened years ago. 

Because I don't have insurance, I take extra precautions.  Am I a time bomb with a foreseeable problem?  With as long as I've been in business, would I qualify for a better rate?  Isn't this kind of insurance gambling against yourself if you are in a lower income bracket?

Christopher Ambler wrote:

Unfortunately, such an arrangement will quickly be found to be fraud if an insurance claim is ever actually made. It is a micropayment for the specific purpose of creating insurance coverage, and not actually making an employee or contractor out of the escort.

I see the logic in your suggestion, but it would create more risk, not less.

No Chris, you need a better insurance person.  My family has insurance covering any person on our property who should injure themselves.  I don't personally have insurance, but the property I shoot on has.

Plus I don't have a single employee paid on an hourly basis, and by tax law because I pay everyone on a contract basis.  I do not wish to have to pay for insurance nor take out taxes for hourly employees which are the only ones I know of that I would need to provide insurance for.

Christopher Ambler wrote:

How do you figure that part?

The escort walks through the door of my studio and slips. There's no coverage. Giving someone money to go and get coffee does not make them an employee or contractor.

Seriously, I'm not asking for a "how do I get around this" answer. I'm looking for an honest, legal solution to the problem.

Seriously, you have screwed up insurance coverage!  If someone breaks into your studio and hurts him or herself, they could sue you!

Jean-Philippe Martin wrote:

I think that if a random person comes in to your studio to ask for help for a jump start and trips or slips, this person isn't covered... I think you should consider changing insurance. That's the solution.
Because it means that you'd have everyone sign the contract before stepping in... and I am sure that you don't have the people signing contracts outside the door.
Therefore they are not covered until they sign, you are deep in big legal dilemna here.

I agree!  His insurance sucks!

Adler Photographic wrote:
Get a new insurance policy, or, get a new insurance agent. I have never heard of anything so ridiculous. Property and liability insurance should cover you. Workers comp covers enployees.Hell if a burglar breaks into your studio and injurs himself in some states he or she can sue. For over thirty years clients have showed up to shoots and waited in the reception area or even on the set. If there is a dangerous element to the shoot have them stand back. Everyone who enters your premesis doesn't have to be employed or compensated. If that was the case how could productions have a studio audience?

I hope he pays attention!