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Paying a model and expected usage rights...
Ummm....I model full time, and do not expect that...however my rates are standard and negotiable.... It's always nice when a photog wants to give me a copy of what we've shot...but when you're being paid, you shouldn't demand it....that's IS what tfp/cd is for, which alot of us forget.... If you really like a shot, then go on and send it to her, with the understanding that she can't resell the image....have that on the release...worded perhaps "if photographer agrees to give x images to model must only be used for promotional purposes" The only thing I can understand her wanting to put in the release in terms of selling the images is that 1. you "attempt" to notify her if an image sell...doesn't mean you'll reach her....for tear sheet purposes only, not additional payment 2. that it is not sold to any adult content sites, mags, ect....just for her peace of mind... In my opinion, anything else just seems like a lack of experience and knowledge about contacts, tfp, real world, ect....hope my scatterbrained opinion helps! Jan 12 07 02:36 am Link its always been my philosophy that anything i shoot i will retain use of. granted, i also generally give use of images for personal and self-promotional materials, but i retain the commercial use. if a client wants to do a complete buy out of a shoot, that can be negotiated. however, the price it will cost them will be enough that i will be happy to let the images go. Jan 12 07 02:56 am Link I just wouldn't work with her. And I would tell her why. Period. Jan 12 07 03:03 am Link Pay her in "model dollars", that are redeamable to you for prints! Jan 12 07 04:18 am Link lilmissroxy99 wrote: That's not scatterbrained at all. It's good business sense. I've shot models who had non-competing clauses with websites they worked with (suicidegirls) and I wrote in the release no images would be sold or provided to or shown on any website that competed with suicidegirls, in the opinion of suicidegirls. Jan 12 07 04:26 am Link I once set up a session with an out of town model for pay. The rates were discussed well in advance, When she arrived to California she was carless the whole time she was here. She relied on friends to drive her to and from session sor asked that the photographer pick her up. I was'nt bothered by the lack of transportation, but it irked the hell out of me when she pulled a fast one and said her rates and time started the moment she got in my car! I wasn't born yesterday! Needless to say I cancelled the session via phone . Your model wants rates and restriction of usage? Find another model !!!! Jan 12 07 04:31 am Link If I was getting paid for a shoot I wouldn't demand images.... I would *hope* that if the photographer and I were in good standing that maybe they would send me a high res file with the best photo for my port....but I wouldn't expect it. If the photographer said no- i'd just take the money I made from him and pay for another great photographer to test with. Jan 12 07 04:32 am Link If you are paying her, (as with any other contracted job) terms need to be worked out before-hand and set in writing, before the shoot. You cannot rely on just a release, unless you are tailoring it to include the terms of your specific shoot. You need a formal agreement. Work it out before hand, and if she wont negotiate, you dont have to work with her, but if she does, tell her what you are comfortable with and what your requirements are, and find out what she needs to come away with...write up an agreement and make sure it is signed before-hand, along with the release. It will free up her mind and yours so you can both concentrate on making excellent images during the shoot. It's good business. Finally, it is usually common practice that if a model is being paid, he or she needs to understand that that is it. Images given, a share of sales, etc, is icing on the cake, and you retain copyright. That's not to say you shouldnt do everything you can to keep a good working relationship going, and make someone happy, so they CAN have those shots for their portfolio, but different situations warrant different ways of doing things. You obviously cannot release the images from a shoot that will be used in ad copy as part of an ad agency campaign, or in some proprietary manner such as with some corporate/industrial content that will be used for whatever manner of product literature. Magazine's can also be skittish on what they buy- in most cases it wont be publish-able if she is trying to sell it in some competing way... You are paying her for a reason. Personally, if I was being given a hard time for what amounts to *PAID* TFP/TFCD, I would find another model. You are going above and beyond. Jan 12 07 04:58 am Link Some models are so ego-centric that they forget that they are competing for YOUR business if they want to get paid. Keep this in mind at all time when it comes to compensation for models: Models make money from modeling Photographers make money from the use of the images that they control. That implies that you need some exclusivity over the images if you hope to make money from them. It's time to apply the Golden Rule - he who has the gold makes all the rules. You call the shots here buddy. Also remember that models need images to continue to book gigs. If they can't continually update their portfolios with images then they are less competitive with other models that do. Use this leverage to your advantage. if your images have value, say so. Be firm with your offer and confident that it's fair. In fact don't be afraid to counter offer. Always be in talks with potential substitutes. After all they are competing for your business. Full time models get this; newbies and wannabes don't - let them suffer in their ignorance. I was in recent negotiations with a model that wanted to be paid. She kept haggling and dragging the negotiations on and on counter-offering and never settling on a deal. Well another model became available (a better deal) and was willing to work for trade. I had a plan usage so I needed this to be a paid shoot and i made her an offer and she was thrilled. So now I had a choice. Model A who seemed to not be satisfied until she rung every last concession she could from me and Model B who was wanted to work with me enough to do it for free and had a more marketable look. This was a no-brainer. I stop negotiation with Model A and book the shoot with Model B. The Model A was angry that she got better dealed by another model's offer. Welcome to the free market. The same could go for her, if we had not committed to a shoot and the model got a better offer then she would be well within her rights to book the higher paying gig. I'm always looking for the best value and I expect that models do as well. Unless her look is not easily substitutable, you should not have a problem getting someone who will be more reasonable. ------ As to the expectation that a model can expect images from a shoot. I am very clear on this with models - don't expect them. With that said they should set their rates according to the intended usage per industry norms and the value of the shoot experience. Why no expectation of images to models that I pay? Well when it becomes a shoot where I pay a model to shoot for me there is a profit motive along with my artistic one. Therefore I am looking to make a return on investment. Usually that return means money, but it could mean marketing purposes or my portfolio development. In any case, I need to see an potential benefit from paying the model if I don't then the obvious question that needs to be asked is why am I shooting with them. Does this mean I don't give images to models that I pay. No. At times, I do depending on the situation. If I'm looking to maximize my ability to make money from the images, then I will likely not share the images. I need to maintain the integrity of the session and if images from a session are floating around the internet it lessen the value of those images. Keep in mind that just because I decide well AFTER the shoot that I want to share an image or two doesn't mean that a model can EXPECT me to share images with them if I pay them. This is a courtesy and in my mind bonus compensation. Also if it's a popular model, the marketing exposure is worth letting them have a few web size images. Jan 12 07 07:43 am Link Julia wrote: Because she's dictating to him that he CAN'T use the images and he's PAYING HER! Jan 12 07 08:04 am Link Kevin, I'm going through the same thing right now with an 18 year old, fairly new llama. I offered to pay and asked what she would charge for a 3 hr shoot. She replied with the standard $75 to $100 per hr depending on the kind of shoot. This is in Florida and I want swimwear so she initially said $300. Then she asked for the tfcd release giving her the control over the images. I replied to set her straight with the same stuff you've heard from other photogs, but listened to her reasons why she wanted it. She does not know me. My port is clean and I do decent stuff, but she still does not know me. She made it clear she did not want the images posted in some "sleezy" way or in a "men's" magazine. That's not my style, I liked her look, so while I said alterations to my comm release are rare, I was willing to do it in her case. Again, I wanted to work with her. The result, negotiation. I countered with a $150 flat rate and offered to add a clause to my commercial release that I would not sell the images to a men's magazine. She accepted. Moral - Find our what the llama's concern is and try to make it a "win,win" for both parties. Jan 12 07 08:24 am Link Maybe it is just me, but I never understand when someone wants to work with someone else SO BAD that they will accept what they personally deem ridiculous terms to do it.. I hear photogs on here saying this all the time and just cringe each time.. I have yet to see or meet or hear about ANY llama that would make me jump thru hoops to take a pic of her.. But "to each his reach" - George Clinton.. Jan 12 07 08:24 am Link What she said. Malloy is a very professional llama - great to work with and easy on the eyes. Her ideas are right in line with what I would call best practices in the industry. From my perspective, any llama that made demand like those described by the OP would be shooting with someone other than me. (and sadly there are photographers that will hire her under those conditions) David p.s. Looking forward to working with you again soon Malloy. You going to the VI in June? lilmissroxy99 wrote: Jan 12 07 08:27 am Link wel fr me it depends on the general compensation. If I'm being paid my fullrates I don't expect an image back. sometimes i get some, othertimes not. If I'm being paid a lower than usual rate this is usually because I've cut a deal wherby part of the compensation is photographs for my use. If I'm paying a photographer their full commercial rate i expect the pictures to be mine and copy right signed over to me As do wth togs soem may cut me a deal wherby they use some images froma shoto and I pay them a reduced fee. TFP/ Time for images - We both give time, we both get images. _____________ I wouldn't be horrified at people askign what you're able to offer, since this is all a delicate negotiation process. Say that for her full rates you wont pay wth those image restrictions. If you were paying less would the image restrictions be a problem? (if not may be worth offering her les smoney and images as compensation). If you want to work with her and you want greater use of the images, may be wirth skign what she'd expect in cmpensaton to remove the image use limitations she is stipulated? if you can't come to an aggreement that is mutually acceptable - best to hunt down another llama. Good luck  hope it turns out well!Jan 12 07 08:52 am Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: Dear llama, Jan 12 07 10:35 am Link part paid perhaps? jordan Jan 12 07 10:39 am Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: You do what you feel best interests you. Jan 12 07 10:41 am Link J Merrill Images wrote: Cheap is an opinion. Jan 12 07 10:43 am Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: You're giving her $125/hr for implied? Jan 12 07 10:45 am Link phoeniXXX wrote: I agree completely here. If there are some great shots and the llama uses those shots (with copyright in your name) it is benefical to you as well. I don't think the llama should get all the pictures. I think maybe 5,at most,that you both agree on. Jan 12 07 10:50 am Link Tim Baker wrote: Never, ever, put yourself in a position of working to someone else's contract. NEVER! EVER! Jan 12 07 10:53 am Link I have to agree with the poster below. It is highly unreasonable for the llama to EXPECT high res. edited photos as well as payment. lilmissroxy99 wrote: Jan 12 07 11:04 am Link Lets see now, she is dictating terms, sounds like she got confused (some llamas sometimes do) My guess, SHE'S PLANNING ON PAYING YOU!!!! there ya go, that 'll work fine. I'd take the $500 bucks for the 1/2 day shoot and smile. But if She's not that confused, then she's that confused. Confusing isnt it. Jan 12 07 04:47 pm Link So if I pay someone to paint flames on my car, and they said, 'okay, you can pay me to paint flames on your car, but you are not allowed to drive down Roosevelt Road, or any street ending in the letter N. Also, I reserve the right to drive your car any time I want. If you go to a car show or a Cruise Night you must park facing North and send me more money.' --- huh? Jan 12 07 06:23 pm Link Daniela V wrote: No...I'm not paying her $125/hour...period. I said in my earlier post that I wasn't actually interested in shooting implied images with her, not for that kind of fee. It IS crazy high. Jan 13 07 07:03 pm Link Next! Jan 13 07 08:04 pm Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: Then it should be tfp. Jan 13 07 09:16 pm Link Julia wrote: Because the implication is that the model deserves a freebie -- even after being paid by the photographer -- meaning the photographer's work has no value and doesn't even deserve the compensation of trade for their work. That's incredibly insulting to the photographer..."you're making me pay, AND you want me to give you the work, for FREE?" Remember, outside the TFP/CD world, photographers get paid to shoot for models portfolios. Photography services have a monetary value, also. Jan 14 07 12:50 am Link I spent months arranging a shoot with a model, I spent 600 on mua and another 400 on 4 hours of lighting, on the day of the shoot after the model reniged on letting me stay at her house and I was robbed at great loss to myself, the model decides she needs to charge me 50 more per day when we had agreed on tfcd. I was allready in so deep that I had no choice but write a check that I had no money to cover till the following friday........ the images we took were great, could have been better but just the same. now I hear how I didnt even take the images, I have no model release [ big mistake] so I cant use the images and she wants all of the images....hmmmm, I feel better now Jan 14 07 12:59 am Link Retro Photo wrote: very well put, wish it was you in her ear rather than the clown that told her to charge me Jan 14 07 01:00 am Link Almost all of my paid shoots I booked myself (not through my agent) I have been mailed a CD in addition to prints. The only problem is, half of them weren't even worth putting in my book (all shoots I booked myself. I never asked for them either, and some of the time, I never even knew I was getting them. I think she a little out of line about the model release, it all depends though. Is she worth it? I say go through an agency and you know they will turn out and you don't have to pay so you both are trading your time. Or, just tell her she has to sign it if you are paying or no shoot and she what she says. If she doesn't go for it, it all depends on how well you think she can deliver at the shoot and if her look fits your clients needs. All the best, Britt Edit: in going through an agency, she will have to pay you! Jan 14 07 01:10 am Link jonathan ledeux wrote: If she cashed the check as a model. You might have a talk with a lawyer. You might have some rights. Jan 14 07 01:12 am Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: Blow her off, tell her you'll sell her the rights or she can pay you for the shoot. Jan 14 07 03:30 am Link stan wigmore photograph wrote: Agreed. Call off the shoot. Tell her what YOUR policy is about release rights. I shoot mostly nowadays with pro models who quickly skim the release and sign it. They know what a release is. It RELEASES the photographer from obligation or liability in connection with use of the photos. You could tell her, either pose for free or accept the terms of your release, but I wouldn't even do that. Just dump her and get a more reasonable model. Jan 14 07 03:55 am Link ED Edmonds wrote: Good point. A photographer who uses his camera, his media and his skills is assumed to own the copyright on the images in the camera. The release just serves as evidence backing up that assumption. But the lack of a release doesn't mean you don't own the copyright. It's just harder to prove. Jan 14 07 03:58 am Link Vivus Denuo wrote: I have been at this long enough to remember when copyright ment something. Jan 14 07 04:04 am Link LISTEN HOME BOY!!!!! my release is the same for paid shoot and non paid shoot............. in this particular case its a paid shoot right............ you are pushing out the money for her and all the other bits...... i repeat do not!!!! DO NOT ALTER YOUR RELEASE.............. in a minute you going to say she wants have images as well............ do not change a thing funny enough i have a folder with all my releases so that something with over 10 releases they all signed it and i expected everybody to do the same.... you make the rules.........since i ve been into this thing i only paid one model.... LET THE JOKER GO!!!!! Jan 14 07 04:08 am Link Anyone ever consider the 'smokescreen' idea behind both photographers and models for 'pay' jobs??? IE: if they want to work with you, its free and/or easy, if they don't want to work with you, they make it difficult in one respect or another.. 'they' is interchangeable for model or photographer You know, its a crappy device to let people work with only people they want to work with. ehh... good luck Jan 14 07 04:20 am Link JK Views wrote: yeaaaaaaaaaa good try price went down and everything still expensive for a new model.......... glad it worked out 4 u Jan 14 07 04:27 am Link Kevin Langevin Photo wrote: I work as a fulltime model ~ i get paid Jan 14 07 05:49 am Link |
