Rowen wrote:

Really? Damn! I'd much rather be weird than creepy!  LOL!

-R

Yeah, me too. I'm definitely one of those weird but non-creepy kind of guys. There are people who do creepy far better than me.

  -P-

  PS -- I like beer.

StudioMona wrote:

I'm kinda at the opposite in that since I do mostly TFP/TFCD at the moment that I'd rather not deal with escort issues. If someone wants to pay me in the future, they can bring a battalion of escorts with them to the shoot

My personal preference is no escorts.  As a TFP/CD photographer I don't have an iron clad rule against escorts, but feel that they are an unnecessary complication.  Good rapport with a model requires trust.  A model that brings an escort immediately is telling me that she doesn't have trust in me, yet.

Ann Marie wrote:
B. They are easily distracted by BOYFRIENDS.  Not girlfriends, not styists, not makeup artists...but ___BOYFRIENDS___.  Even if the MODEL isn't distracted by her BOYFRIEND, THEY are...what does that mean?

Girlfriends, stylists, and MUAs don't typically make the model look to them for approval, give disaproving looks at certain poses or outfits, blow up in the middle of the shoot because the model is looking "too sexy" and haul her out of there, lose his cool when the photographer says "You look hot" and punch him 3 or 4 times in the face, or any of he other regular problems boyfriends & husbands cause.  Theese're all VERY good reasons why even most photographers who're OK with escorts and even PRO escort say no BFs or husbands.

Ann Marie wrote:
This is why I post, though!  The IMPRESSION I get from photographers who don't allow escorts is that:

A. They want the model all to themselves in a personal way (ick!)
B. They are easily distracted by BOYFRIENDS.  Not girlfriends, not styists, not makeup artists...but ___BOYFRIENDS___.  Even if the MODEL isn't distracted by her BOYFRIEND, THEY are...what does that mean?

I'm not worried about getting raped.  I'm worried about being murdered.  I'm worried that somebody is leading me to believe they are doing something for mutual benefit and then jerking off like an acne-ridden 13-year-old boy to the photos afterwards.

I'm not going to be there - why should I care?

Well - It's CREEP FACTOR.  Pure-and-Simple.

I chose not to shoot with them.  So what?  It's STILL creepy.

a.  It's called complete unbridled attention.  No distractions for either party and trust that each is contributing their best effort in getting good results.

b.  A murderer is not going to be stopped by any escort.  If you are that afraid, you are in the wrong profession.

c.  So it is perfectly okay for every other person who sees the final results of the session to masturbate, just not the photographer?

Here’s how it work’s:

The RIGHT way

1. Photographer sees my portfolio, gets inspired, makes a decision to
contact me
 
2. Photographer sends me an e-mail stating same

3. I get e-mail, read, think, then go to portfolio of said photographer

4. I make a decision based on what I see as to whether or not I want to work with them

5. I send e-mail back saying can we exchange references so we both can perform our due diligence audits on one another

6. Based on that exchange being a positive I call 5 of their references, not 1 through 5 on the list, but 2, 6, ,8, 9, and 10, just in case they have loaded the top

7. Providing that they are all positive, and I mean all of them, then I e-mail back and provide phone number and names of contacts (Manager, Agent, Parent, Legal Guardian)

8. We enter into telephone conversation to build chemistry between us so BOTH of our comfort levels and familiarity with one another are high

9. We schedule a shoot, exchange ideas, discuss wardrobe, makeup, hairstyles, and basic shoot map

10. We shoot, get good photos the FIRST time, have fun, they provide the photos, and we discuss working together again.

The WRONG way

1. Photographer sees my portfolio, gets wood, makes a decision to fondle me

2. Photographer sends me an e-mail stating different intentions

3. I get e-mail, skim over the high spots, text boyfriend, then go to portfolio of said photographer and look at the first 2 photos

4. I make a decision based on how I intend to use this artist to my advantage

5. I send e-mail back saying we can shoot but only if I am ESCORTED

6. Photographer provides references that I ignore because I am late for my boyfriends 1 day hunting trip going away party

7. Photographer e-mails back with suggested schedule and gives his phone number

8. I make him wait for 3 days before I answer on the night before he wishes to schedule and I refuse to call him because I don’t want some creepy guy having my cell number

9. I send back a different day the following week when I am not busy, tell him what outfits I will be bringing, what I want to shoot, how I want it shot, and what kind of shit I don’t put up with at a shoot (looking at me, thinking about me, trying to talk to me, or not snapping fast enough because I have shit to do and I don’t wanna hang out with his creepy ass all  day)

10. The shoot is a disaster and I immediately label the photographer as a GWC and begin dropping this label on anybody within earshot

And from the sister/assistant of a handicapped model responding to a pro-escort model:

“ As I sat here with my jaw on the floor reading your bs, it struck me exactly why my baby sister, who is disabled, has had so many offers from the truly great photographers in this forum, on this website, and from around the country.

You.

You are handing over all of the brilliant talent to models such as her. You have ruined your short and feeble career as a model in one felled swoop. You can change your mind, you can change your port, but you can’t erase the disrespect you have for all artists by posting it here in public for everyone to see.

You have no idea what your talking about and no idea what this industry is about. You are a vain young woman who likes taking pretty pictures. Nothing more.

Nor will you ever be…”

Habenero Photography wrote:
a.  It's called complete unbridled attention.  No distractions for either party and trust that each is contributing their best effort in getting good results.

b.  A murderer is not going to be stopped by any llama herder.  If you are that afraid, you are in the wrong profession.

c.  So it is perfectly okay for every other person who sees the final results of the session to masturbate, just not the photographer?

lmao @ C.

Habenero Photography wrote:
My personal preference is no escorts.  As a TFP/CD photographer I don't have an iron clad rule against escorts, but feel that they are an unnecessary complication.  Good rapport with a model requires trust.  A model that brings an escort immediately is telling me that she doesn't have trust in me, yet.

I hear you. And for me, tfcd/tfps are collaborations between the photographer/model and when applicable, muas and others who are there working on a concept. An escort (to me) is not part of the creative process so he/she is free to drop off the model after quickly meeting with me, then kill time someplace else, then come back after the shoot or wait in the reception/waiting room and read magazines, but I will no longer allow an escort to be in the same room as myself and the subject while we are shooting. I am not putting on a "show" for the escort LOL

I never push anyone to go outside of their limits beyond what we have agreed upon for the shoot. We talk about the concept beforehand, and I would expect the model to know what the shoot would entail and work together to achieve our goals.

StudioMona wrote:

I hear you. And for me, tfcd/tfps are collaborations between the photographer/model and when applicable, muas and others who are there working on a concept. An escort (to me) is not part of the creative process so he/she is free to drop off the model after quickly meeting with me, then kill time someplace else, then come back after the shoot or wait in the reception/waiting room and read magazines, but I will no longer allow an escort to be in the same room as myself and the subject while we are shooting. I am not putting on a "show" for the escort LOL

I never push anyone to go outside of their limits beyond what we have agreed upon for the shoot. We talk about the concept beforehand, and I would expect the model to know what the shoot would entail and work together to achieve our goals.

Collaborative art is difficult at times, escorts make it more so.  I have always been upfront about what a shoot entails and never have tried to coerce any model into anything beyond the original agreed upon limits for the shoot.  Mutual respect and trust make better pictures.

Pat Thielen wrote:
Also, and escort will not protectyou from being raped, nurdered, or magically cause the photographer to not start "jjerking off like an acne-ridden 13-year-old boy to the photos afterwards." If a photographer is evil and wants only to do you harm they will desptie the escort; they'll just be fed into the wood chipper first.

So, in other words....women are safe whereever they go...and NEVER need escorts.

Because the only harm a person can do to you is to rape or murder you?

SLE Photography wrote:

Girlfriends, stylists, and MUAs don't typically make the model look to them for approval, give disaproving looks at certain poses or outfits, blow up in the middle of the shoot because the model is looking "too sexy" and haul her out of there, lose his cool when the photographer says "You look hot" and punch him 3 or 4 times in the face, or any of he other regular problems boyfriends & husbands cause.  Theese're all VERY good reasons why even most photographers who're OK with escorts and even PRO escort say no BFs or husbands.

Maybe, just maybe, THOSE are the models who don't belong in the biz.

Habenero Photography wrote:
c.  So it is perfectly okay for every other person who sees the final results of the session to masturbate, just not the photographer?

Masturbation isn't the issue.

SLE Photography wrote:
I'd just like to throw 2 comments out there. 
First, I have very good specific personal reasons for saying "No" to s, including having been robbed at gunpoint by one after a shoot.  However, I was always very "live and let live" about it until I came here and saw all the people, models and photographers both, trumpeting the "need" for them

SLE Photography wrote:
Frightened little bunny rabbits will never make it in the rough, tough world of modeling.  So, if you are too scared to be alone with a photographer, you should cut your losses, quit while you're ahead.

Please, call an agency or someone who provides REAL work for models.
I'm sure they'll agree 100% with you.

Ann Marie wrote:

This is why I post, though!  The IMPRESSION I get from photographers who don't allow escorts is that:

A. They want the model all to themselves in a personal way (ick!)
B. They are easily distracted by BOYFRIENDS.  Not girlfriends, not styists, not makeup artists...but ___BOYFRIENDS___.  Even if the MODEL isn't distracted by her BOYFRIEND, THEY are...what does that mean?

I'm not worried about getting raped.  I'm worried about being murdered.  I'm worried that somebody is leading me to believe they are doing something for mutual benefit and then jerking off like an acne-ridden 13-year-old boy to the photos afterwards.

I'm not going to be there - why should I care?

Well - It's CREEP FACTOR.  Pure-and-Simple.

I chose not to shoot with them.  So what?  It's STILL creepy.

Your paranoia is a little...creepy.

Here are some statistics for you to chew on:

"Contrary to the belief that rapists are hiding in the bushes or in the shadows of the parking garage, almost two-thirds of all rapes were committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger – 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative."

--National Crime Victimization Survey, 2005

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html

I will quote SLE Photography here. He makes a great point:

I'd just like to throw 2 comments out there. 
First, I have very good specific personal reasons for saying "No" to escorts, including having been robbed at gunpoint by one after a shoot.  However, I was always very "live and let live" about it until I came here and saw all the people, models and photographers both, trumpeting the "need" for them & telling people they should always have them.  I'm PERFECTLY happy to say "models and photographers should set their own limits and if they don't agree they shouldn't work together."  But what gets my goat & sets me to ranting in these threads are the twin attitudes that seem to underly this whole mess:
#1, all photographers are likely to be dangerous predators.  This's FALSE and the idea is demeaning to the profession of photography.  The idea of it undermines the photographer/model relationship by causing models to operate with a distrustful attitude towards photographer.
#2, all (female generally) models are helpless weak creatures who can't defend or think for themselves and need someone (a man usually) to come along & "comfort" or "protect" them on photo shoots.  That idea on the face of it is insulting to women.  I think of them as strong, capable, and able to care for themselves just fine, thank you very much.  This idea also undermines the model/photographer relationship by suggesting to photographers that the models are likely to be airheaded flakes.

Consider this: 3 models have been murdered in the last 20 years by "photographers".

And I use the term "photographers" loosely.

Linda Sobek is the ONLY one of the three where the case involved an actual model & photographer.
She answered a phone call from a photographer she didn't know but whose name she recognized and without checking on him or the job or telling anyone where she was going she went out in the desert with the guy and he killed her.  CSI based an episode on this.  That was well over a decade ago.

The other 2 cases are:
William Bradford, the serial killer who's usually cited here.  This guy was NOT a photographer.  He would approach women in bars & shopping malls & CLAIM to be one to lure them back to his "studio" where he would kill them.  Interestingly, one of the reasons he resorted to that was because he went to some locla photographic events & group shoots & all the models thought he was "creepy" and warned one another to stay away from him.  So he only got girls who didn't talk to anyone or check references or even see photos!  Additionally, one girl brought an escort & he killed them BOTH.  Most of the recent TV shows about "The Dangers of Photographers!!!!" have been about this one psycho from over 20 years ago.

The porn actress Nadal King, who came to the US to shoot with a guy.  She specifically IGNORED her talent agency's rule against going on shoots with random people who contacted her and bypassed their screening process.  Part way thru the shoot, she went in the dressing room with her cell phone & called a friend to say the photographer was "freaking her out" and she wasn't sure if he was going to "pay or kill" her.  DESPITE THIS, they "finished" the shoot and the MUA the man had hired left, and Nadal got in her OWN car & voluntarily followed the guy back to his house (as witnessed by the MUA and another call to her friend) where he killed her.

Not only was there a COMPLETE lack of due diligence and safety precautions in all of those cases, but in the Bradford & King cases the women had opportunities to escape!
The idea that the majority of us put this sort of time & effort in to creating fake profiles to "lure" women from the internet (leaving tracks in the process!) when both the Bradford case & a current rapist working in England using his MO demonstrate that all we have to do is go up to a chick at a bar & CLAIM to be photographers & leave no tracks is patently ridiculous.

Ann Marie wrote:
Most photographers are dicks or pervs

Well, that says it all right there.  She clearly is hostile toward photographers.

Ann Marie wrote:

So, in other words....women are safe whereever they go...and NEVER need escorts.

Because the only harm a person can do to you is to rape or murder you?

You mentioned rape and murder; I was responding to your post. And shouldn't you be safe where-ever you go? Do you bring an escort to your day job? Did you bring an escort to your job interview? Do you bring an escort when you go to the grocery store? People can get injured or even murdered at grocery stores. Do you bring an escort to the bank because there might be a robbery? Do you bring escorts when you go on a date with someone you just met? The doctor? The dentist? How about if you go to Disney Land in case Tigger attacks you?

  Modeling is a job, and it should be looked at that way. If you feel too frightened to go to a photo session unescorted then you really shouldn't be modeling (at least in my opinion). You can also do a bit of research before booking a modeling assignment with a photographer you haven't worked with before:

  * Ask for references
  * Contact other models who have worked with the photographer before
  * Check the photographer out online -- do a Google search and see what comes up
  * Let people know where you're going to be and provide them with the photographer's studio address and phone number
  * Meet with the photographer before scheduling any photo sessions

  And there are other options as well. An escort will not protect you from someone planning to do you harm. Due diligence on your part is far more effective to not get in  a bad situation in the first place. And the vast majority of photographers are not going to do you any harm. You may have been watching to much TV to become as paranoid as you seem to be.

  While I do not have a "no escort" policy, I do not see them as necessary when working with me because I know for a fact that I will not attack the model. I find them to be a distraction and I don't like people not associated with a photo session to be on set. And I also don't like strangers hanging out for no reason -- who's going to protect me from the model's escort if they decide to rob me or punch me because they're feeling jealous? If you want to find out how I am to work with you have nothing more to do than contact the models I've worked with in the past (linked on my MM portfolio).

  Anyway, my opinion. Do what you will.

LarryB wrote:

Well, that says it all right there.  She clearly is hostile toward photographers.

I think she meant to type "Most photographers are not dicks or pervs, but there are some."

  Still, the Freudian slip is most telling.

LarryB wrote:
Well, that says it all right there.  She clearly is hostile toward photographers.

Pat Thielen wrote:
I think she meant to type "Most photographers are not dicks or pervs, but there are some."

  Still, the Freudian slip is most telling.

Maybe so, but she'd just posted, so surely shes around.  I've called her on it and she hasn't edited it yet.

Based on the totality of her posts on this thread, I'd say the sentence as written reflects her true feelings.  After all, she did say that photographers who don't allow escorts only do so in order to get with the model in "a personal way".  Her thoughts on the matter are pretty clear.

Ann Marie wrote:

Masturbation isn't the issue.

Then why did you say this?

Ann Marie wrote:
I'm worried that somebody is leading me to believe they are doing something for mutual benefit and then jerking off like an acne-ridden 13-year-old boy to the photos afterwards.

Ann Marie wrote:
And...BTW, on 4 seperate occassions I've been flat-out solicited for sex at shoots.  I don't want to be solicited at a professional shoot.  Shoots that were *supposed* to be PROFESSIONAL.  Would have an escort have stopped it?  ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, YES.

You know, I shouldn't have to say, "No." 
It just shouldn't happen.  I dealt with all cases evenly at the time, and moved on...with new rules.

Most photographers are dicks or pervs, but there are some.  And I'm willing to bet that anyone can find 2-3 models to give as references saying they aren't.

Sweet Baby Jesus... you would have served yourself so much better if you would have just ended this with your apology for starting it in the first place on page one.

Ann Marie wrote:
And...BTW, on 4 seperate occassions I've been flat-out solicited for sex at shoots.  I don't want to be solicited at a professional shoot.  Shoots that were *supposed* to be PROFESSIONAL.  Would have an escort have stopped it?  ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, YES.

You know, I shouldn't have to say, "No." 
It just shouldn't happen.  I dealt with all cases evenly at the time, and moved on...with new rules.

Most photographers are dicks or pervs, but there are some.  And I'm willing to bet that anyone can find 2-3 models to give as references saying they aren't.

On those 4 seperate ocassions you checked references in advance?  You were sure to end the shoot imediately upon the solicitation? 

You either had extremely bad luck or were naive in your selection process.

Ann Marie wrote:
And...BTW, on 4 seperate occassions I've been flat-out solicited for sex at shoots.  I don't want to be solicited at a professional shoot.  Shoots that were *supposed* to be PROFESSIONAL.  Would have an escort have stopped it?  ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, YES.

You know, I shouldn't have to say, "No." 
It just shouldn't happen.  I dealt with all cases evenly at the time, and moved on...with new rules.

Most photographers are dicks or pervs, but there are some.  And I'm willing to bet that anyone can find 2-3 models to give as references saying they aren't.

Up until the last paragraph I completely agree with this -- no-one should be solicited at a photo session for anything (this goes for both models and photographers). This is obviously very unprofessional and shouldn't be tolerated. At this point the model should say "no thanks" and leave. End of story. Of course we have no way of knowing if these photographers were serious or were just "flirting" or trying to be funny.

  How many different photographers have you worked with, though? If this is 4 out of 4 that's a lot. If it's 4 out of 20 then it's not as common as you would imply. Also, you may have been able to avoid this had you done some research on the photographers beforehand. Not always, but more times than not a photographer who's known to solicit models will be known to the local community.

LarryB wrote:

Well, that says it all right there.  She clearly is hostile toward photographers.

That's not what I meant to say.  I meant to say "Not all..."
Total mistake.
I don't think most photographers are dicks or pervs.

Habenero Photography wrote:

Ann Marie wrote:
Masturbation isn't the issue.

Then why did you say this?

Emphasis on LEADING ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING FOR MUTUAL BENEFIT.

Ann Marie wrote:
And...BTW, on 4 seperate occassions I've been flat-out solicited for sex at shoots.  I don't want to be solicited at a professional shoot.  Shoots that were *supposed* to be PROFESSIONAL.  Would have an escort have stopped it?  ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, YES.

ok. bad idea.

Serevende Photography wrote:
Oh, hate on me if you want but I say if somebody posts stuff as silly as this we should be able to have some fun with it!!!

Whether we should be able to or not, it's still thin ice to tread.


Question for the OP: DO you provide full references for your escort to the photographer before he or she has to risk his life and equipment in the presence of your otherwise unknown escort?

Do you have your escort with you when you pass construction sites? I mean, you don't want to hear catcalls and whistles, do you?

When you were propositioned at photo shoots did you leave on the spot, or finish the session? Have you been used as a reference by those photographers?

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Whether we should be able to or not, it's still thin ice to tread.

Wow, serious dude. I thought it was so sarcastic and absurd nobody could possibly take it seriously. Sorry if I'm wrong about that.

Habenero Photography wrote:
Collaborative art is difficult at times, escorts make it more so.  I have always been upfront about what a shoot entails and never have tried to coerce any model into anything beyond the original agreed upon limits for the shoot.  Mutual respect and trust make better pictures.

I couldn't agree with you more   That's why for me, if the model doesn't trust me enough not to bring an escort (assuming she's done her homework/research/questioning etcetera), then I'd pass No biggie (not that that has ever happened to me before lol )

Daniela V wrote:

I bring an escort to almost every single shoot that is TFP...whether I know the photographer or not.

She's called MY MAKEUP ARTIST.

Why keep posting about this? Are you THAT fearful for your safety? Do your homework and get references or don't shoot. It's so simple it's ridiculous.

AMEN

If models would spend 10 minutes doing some research and using provided referrences there wouldnt ever be a question.

Jordan May wrote:

AMEN

If models would spend 10 minutes doing some research and using provided referrences there wouldnt ever be a question.

I'd go further than that... Why depend on provided references? Ask him for the names of some of the other models in his portfolio (if they are not already linked) and ask THEM, too. Ask some other models in the area that you know. You don't have to rely on cherry-picked references if you don't want to.

Ann Marie wrote:

Emphasis on LEADING ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING FOR MUTUAL BENEFIT.

How is you getting what you want out of the shoot and the photographer getting what he wants out of the shoot not mutually beneficial?  Are you saying your ideals are the only ones that matter?  You have made poor choices.  You then try to present your escort requirement as valid for all models due to your poor choices.  Most of us are decent law abiding artists plying our craft to the best of our abilities.  Your paranoia will eventually take its toll, if you keep feeding it.

Mikel Featherston wrote:

I'd go further than that... Why depend on provided references? Ask him for the names of some of the other models in his portfolio (if they are not already linked) and ask THEM, too. Ask some other models in the area that you know. You don't have to rely on cherry-picked references if you don't want to.

This is true -- "bad" photographers and models are known in the community. All it takes is a bit of research -- it's not that difficult.