Odin's Eye wrote:

there we go. in response to shooting someone being raped.

Yeah...I'm reading through it now, and the more I read, the more disappointed I am. I would love it if people were willing to sacrifice for their art...but

a. I would never judge anyone or their commitment to their art if they didn't
b. I would ESPECIALLY never judge someone like that if I weren't willing to make sacrifices myself.
c. I would never force another person to sacrifice for my art, or judge them for not wanting to.

Odin's Eye wrote:
pretending you are a rapist or watching a rape. No, I didn't overlook it. I just still see that persona in your responses.

I didn't bring that up, I responded to a question. And then responded again to the response to my response. Too much of this is cyclical and useless.

JBPhoto wrote:
I think your idea of the process is a tad messed up.
You want edgy, shoot your interperetation of it.   You want someone to actually cut themself and bleed for you?  Shoot self portraits.

No. Read the whole thread.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Have you considered that cuts on a model's skin reduces her or his chances for future work?  Would you be willing to destroy your camera for my art?  If you say no, I'll be depressed.

Pay enough for the model's time, the time it takes for the cut to heal completely, and pay for the model's pain and suffering (as a court would award in an injury lawsuit) and you'll find your model.  Say a hypothetical $400/day for 10 days plus an additional $2000 for the pain.  Lay down $6K, and I'll do it.  Hell, I'd do it for $5K.

And for $10K, I'll break my camera.

I don't want a model to cut themself! I want a model to be willing to cut themself if asked.

Searcher wrote:

I don't want a model to cut themself! I want a model to be willing to cut themself if asked.

Okay, for $5K, I'll be willing to cut myself, but I won't do it.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
I've always been one to take chances for art, and I plan to continue that so long as I'm not truly risking my life. I've been in nothing but a corset in a shed with holes when it was snowing outside, I've stood at the top of what was probably like a 20 foot ladder, I've climbed through bushes with thorns barefoot (and gotten cut), I've sat completely immobile for 15 minutes at a stretch for light paintings, I've been tied hanging from a ceiling and gotten some nasty bruises under my arms. I'm already planning a shoot as soon as it snows where I will essentially lay naked in the snow (I'm not telling why You guys will have to wait and see). A true artist will sacrifice for their work. A few drops of blood is a small price to pay for art. If I thought it would be a good shot (which is really debeatable...cutting shots are done to death), I would certainly cut myself for it. Cuts are temporary...art is forever.

Kaitlin, we are pilgrims in an unholy land.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

That's harsh. Why aren't people allowed to live their life as they choose? Maybe David prefers to draw on suffering that's already there for his art. Or maybe he just wants to show beauty. Just because you don't want to purposely cause yourself pain for your art doesn't mean you're "sad". It just means you've got different motivations.

No, sad because he would wish me pain for my opinions.

Odin's Eye wrote:

there we go. in response to shooting someone being raped.

Yeah, and I followed up saying something along the lines of "ask a silly question, get a silly answer."

Searcher wrote:
I don't want a model to cut themself! I want a model to be willing to cut themself if asked.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Okay, for $5K, I'll be willing to cut myself, but I won't do it.

A bit more seriously, are you really expecting a model to be okay with cutting herself during a shoot where you have not forewarned her that cutting would not be part of the shoot?  I'm really not understanding the practical difference between doing something and being willing to do something during a shoot.

Anderson Artwork wrote:
You want blood? Try your own.

No, I just want a fearless model.

Searcher wrote:

No, I just want a fearless model.

It would seem that a fearless model would bore you.

Searcher wrote:
I'm thinking about art and fear, and how to force the models out of the state of mind they had when they walked in. Innocense, confusion, intelligence, grace, long moments... these things fascinate me.

Searcher wrote:

No, I just want a fearless model.

Then at the very least show your own fearlessness by actually posting some of the real art you claim to have created. I am willing to do a lot if I know it will mean creating a truly memorable image, but I'm not going to do it for someone who openly states that his own (mediocre) portfolio is just a big goof-off.

Searcher wrote:
I don't want a model to cut themself! I want a model to be willing to cut themself if asked.

Brian Diaz wrote:
A bit more seriously, are you really expecting a model to be okay with cutting herself during a shoot where you have not forewarned her that cutting would not be part of the shoot?  I'm really not understanding the practical difference between doing something and being willing to do something during a shoot.

Yes, I expect that at some point I will find a model willing to do anything for the shot. It's a leap of faith. I want the model to trust me that much so I can actually trust the model. I have gotten models to that point on a few occasions, but it is really rare. Once we're in that zone, the best images appear. The best stuff I've ever shot was when we got to that level.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
...Considering the fact that this is a 4 page thread, and the inflammatory nature of the topic, I'm sure plenty of stupid things have been said all around.

Only dangerous things by one party thus far...  It has been quit restrained...

Searcher wrote:
No, I just want a fearless model.

Catriona wrote:
Then at the very least show your own fearlessness by actually posting some of the real art you claim to have created.

I cannot. It would be recognized.

Searcher wrote:
I am willing to do a lot if I know it will mean creating a truly memorable image, but I'm not going to do it for someone who openly states that his own (mediocre) portfolio is just a big goof-off.

Of course.

Odin's Eye wrote:
I'm just going to say it simply: Put up or shut up, beacuse the pseudo-intellectual shit is getting old.

Are you sure you would recognize intellectual discourse if you encountered it? The work is immaterial. The concepts are under discussion.

Searcher wrote:
I'm thinking about art and fear, and how to force the models out of the state of mind they had when they walked in. Innocense, confusion, intelligence, grace, long moments... these things fascinate me.

forcing models out of their state of mind...
as in, scaring the shit out of them or making them really uncomfortable with your suggestions for art... doesn't quite seem like you care too much about your reputation.. I definitely couldn't see myself recommending another model to work with someone who opted to rattle me a bit...
and this is all so contradictory.. you want to force a model out of her state of mind into giving you raw fear, and yet you want someone who is fearless... would you not then want someone who is a cutter to begin with?
you already said no to that, I believe.. so....

Searcher wrote:
I cannot. It would be recognized.

As what, evidence for your trial?

Maura wrote:
forcing models out of their state of mind...
as in, scaring the shit out of them or making them really uncomfortable with your suggestions for art... doesn't quite seem like you care too much about your reputation.. I definitely couldn't see myself recommending another model to work with someone who opted to rattle me a bit...
and this is all so contradictory.. you want to force a model out of her state of mind into giving you raw fear, and yet you want someone who is fearless... would you not then want someone who is a cutter to begin with?
you already said no to that, I believe.. so....

I love fearless models. I wish more were fearless and am trying to figure out how to get them to that state. I don't want to scare anyone. I want them to trust me enough to let every bit of baggage they came in the door with fall away and just be for the camera.

Searcher wrote:

I love fearless models. I wish more were fearless and am trying to figure out how to get them to that state. I don't want to scare anyone. I want them to trust me enough to let every bit of baggage the came in the door with fall away and just be for the camera.

But why should anyone trust you when you clearly don't trust anyone here?

Searcher wrote:

Are you sure you would recognize intellectual discourse if you encountered it? The work is immaterial. The concepts are under discussion.

The concept stopped being under discussion a long time ago; you've been asked repeatedly for proof. Your response, a whiny "I can't, it would be recognized!"

So either you have no proof, as someone else suggested would be incriminating against you, or you are simply rousing us up. So again, put up or shut up.

Catriona wrote:

As what, evidence for your trial?

Amen!

Catriona wrote:
But why should anyone trust you when you clearly don't trust anyone here?

I haven't asked anyone here to trust me.

Searcher wrote:

I love fearless models. I wish more were fearless and am trying to figure out how to get them to that state. I don't want to scare anyone. I want them to trust me enough to let every bit of baggage they came in the door with fall away and just be for the camera.

So develop a d/s relationship, take a slave, and there you go, your fearless all-trusting model.

Odin's Eye wrote:
The concept stopped being under discussion a long time ago; you've been asked repeatedly for proof. Your response, a whiny "I can't, it would be recognized!"

So either you have no proof, as someone else suggested would be incriminating against you, or you are simply rousing us up. So again, put up or shut up.

I owe you nothing. I'm still talking about the concepts. You're just being nosy.

Searcher wrote:

I haven't asked anyone here to trust me.

Then why are you starting threads on what models should or should not be willing to do, if you apparently have no plans on using models from this site?

Odin's Eye wrote:
So develop a d/s relationship, take a slave, and there you go, your fearless all-trusting model.

I have to work with new models every week.

Catriona wrote:
Then why are you starting threads on what models should or should not be willing to do, if you apparently have no plans on using models from this site?

This is my dark side.

Searcher wrote:

I owe you nothing. I'm still talking about the concepts. You're just being nosy.

You are talking about the ability to abuse a model with her consent. To alter her frame of mind to trust you. Yet you offer nothing that is showing you even begin to be worthy of that type of trust.

Searcher wrote:
No, I just want a fearless model.

The Guy who ended up chopping up a model he contacted off of OMP with his girlfriend , in Philly used those same words in his weak defense........"I just wanted a fearless model"... Last we heard he was getting his 'fearless' RAMMED up 'his' in prison while he is awaiting the chair.....
There are many safe, none violent forms of finding a 'fearless" model , but then again  many of them are be alot smarter then to work with someone wanting to see blood.

Searcher wrote:

This is my dark side.

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say: You are SO full of shit.

Searcher wrote:

I haven't asked anyone here to trust me.

without even the slight bit of trust, there can be no chemistry between the model and the photographer..

in other words, if I go into a shoot thinking a photographer might hurt, exploit, or humiliate me, you'd see the discomfort in my eyes and the tension in my body if I even let myself get in front of his camera...

so maybe that's your answer... just be creepy and untrustworthy and the model will give you what you seek...

Searcher wrote:
Yes, I expect that at some point I will find a model willing to do anything for the shot. It's a leap of faith. I want the model to trust me that much so I can actually trust the model. I have gotten models to that point on a few occasions, but it is really rare. Once we're in that zone, the best images appear. The best stuff I've ever shot was when we got to that level.

During that building of trust, have you ever indicated that you want the model to cut herself?  You have to make your expectations clear if you ever expect people to live up to your expectations.

Searcher wrote:
I haven't asked anyone here to trust me.

That seems to be the problem.  If no one trusts you, they will not cut themselves on command.

Searcher wrote:

No, sad because he would wish me pain for my opinions.

That's not what you said "That's sad" in reference to.

Brian Diaz wrote:
During that building of trust, have you ever indicated that you want the model to cut herself?  You have to make your expectations clear if you ever expect people to live up to your expectations.

No, like I've said a half dozen times now, the razor blade thing is a metaphor for a leap of faith. I have no intention of asking any model to cut themselves. I do want them to let go of things in their mind that are not themselves, and that's what I'm trying to talk about if the sensationalists would calm themselves.

Searcher wrote:
I haven't asked anyone here to trust me.

Brian Diaz wrote:
That seems to be the problem.  If no one trusts you, they will not cut themselves on command.

I meant in this thread.