JSouthworth wrote:
It would depend on the speed of the movement, but most movement would not be blurred because the duration of studio flash is usually not much more than 1/1000 second.
s.

You should look at the video posted above. Peter Coulson gets wonderful motioin blurs using studio strobes, very slow shutter and moving the camera. He is a wonderful teacher from whom we all can learn something.

Acraftman1313 wrote:
Peter does a nice capture towards the end of this video.
https://youtu.be/5fR--h9Npu4?si=dhh7E_TsqJTUgDsM

Thanks for posting this as it shows the blur technique so well. Peter Coulson is a wonderful teacher and offers so much on YouTube for free. He did a workshop this past Fall in Atlanta which I was unable to attend. I hope he comes back in the near future! He seems like a fun fellow and his work is excellent. He had beautiful. models as well.

JSouthworth wrote:
It would depend on the speed of the movement, but most movement would not be blurred because the duration of studio flash is usually not much more than 1/1000 second.

Continuous lighting is a better option is you want motion blur in your images. Be aware that fluorescent lights flicker at the mains frequency, usually 50Hz whereas tungsten lights, arc lights and LED lights are truly continuous.

It’s ok to not respond when you don’t understand the topic.

Studio NSFW wrote:
It’s ok to not respond when you don’t understand the topic.

I think I understand the topic pretty well. Most studio flash units, including the ones I use have a flash duration of about 1/1000 or less depending to some extent on power settings. There are exceptions if you want to spend a lot of money on high end flash units.

At what point does a flash unit become an arc light?

https://visualeducation.com/flash-durat … or%20t0.1.

Studio NSFW wrote:
The concept the OP is asking about could be better described as mixing flash and ambient light.

That might be your assumption, but this is what the OP wrote:

Seeking some advice , is it possible to capture portraits with varying amounts of motion blur whilst using studio flash ?

Note the absence of any reference to ambient light. Since he refers to studio flash we can assume that he is talking about indoor photography.

In my recent photoshoot with model Jayne Horror I used mixed flash and fluorescent lighting, not really with any motion effects in mind but mainly just to get adequate exposure with 50 ISO film. I switched off the flash units to do some black and white with 400 ISO film, HP5 and RPX400.

Studio NSFW wrote:
He also said “Studio strobes”.

“Studio Strobes” have these things called “Modelling lights”…which are continuous and therefore ambient light, and can work well for this technique.

So he wasn't referring to mixed flash and ambient light after all? Make up your mind. Modelling lights are usually not adequate by themselves.

JSouthworth wrote:

That might be your assumption, but this is what the OP wrote:

Seeking some advice , is it possible to capture portraits with varying amounts of motion blur whilst using studio flash ?

Note the absence of any reference to ambient light. Since he refers to studio flash we can assume that he is talking about indoor photography.

In my recent photoshoot with model Jayne Horror I used mixed flash and fluorescent lighting, not really with any motion effects in mind but mainly just to get adequate exposure with 50 ISO film. I switched off the flash units to do some black and white with 400 ISO film, HP5 and RPX400.

You should start your own thread on that breathtaking technique since you do not understand this one.

Weldphoto wrote:

Thanks for posting this as it shows the blur technique so well. Peter Coulson is a wonderful teacher and offers so much on YouTube for free. He did a workshop this past Fall in Atlanta which I was unable to attend. I hope he comes back in the near future! He seems like a fun fellow and his work is excellent. He had beautiful. models as well.

He is certainly a wonderful instructor not only of photography but also of working with models for people like like me whom are trying to learn.
Happy Holidays

JSouthworth wrote:

Modelling lights are usually not adequate by themselves.

Inadequacy I am sure you are somewhat of an authority on, but I think you mean “Lacking in intensity” as compared to a strobe….

Which would mean a longer exposure would be necessary to collect enough light on the sensor…

And of course, longer exposures can easily lead to subject blur…

But if you pop a strobe at some point during that long exposure time, that split second would be “frozen” and sharp in the midst of the blur from the long exposure….

And the topic of the thread is “Motion blur with strobes”

Congratulations for staying on topic.

Studio NSFW wrote:

Inadequacy I am sure you are somewhat of an authority on, but I think you mean “Lacking in intensity” as compared to a strobe….

Which would mean a longer exposure would be necessary to collect enough light on the sensor…

And of course, longer exposures can easily lead to subject blur…

But if you pop a strobe at some point during that long exposure time, that split second would be “frozen” and sharp in the midst of the blur from the long exposure….

And the topic of the thread is “Motion blur with strobes”

Congratulations for staying on topic.

Just one other point that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: many (not all) cameras have an option called "rear curtain sync" - this setting is used to cause the flash to be fired just before the second curtain starts. This setting is, as far I know, used exclusively for these "motion blur + sharp image" types of shots to arrange things so that that sharp (flash) section of the image comes at the end of the longer shutter interval.

For example, if you have someone running in the shot, then the run will be motion blur, and the final frozen image will be of their face and body at the end of the run.

If this "motion blur with studio strobe" style of shooting wasn't commonly understood, why do so many cameras have a setting specifically for it?

Studio NSFW wrote:

The OP doesn't say anything about using modelling lights for exposure, or ambient light. The question is whether it's possible to achieve motion blur effects using studio flash.

Frozen Instant Imagery wrote:
Just one other point that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: many (not all) cameras have an option called "rear curtain sync" - this setting is used to cause the flash to be fired just before the second curtain starts. This setting is, as far I know, used exclusively for these "motion blur + sharp image" types of shots to arrange things so that that sharp (flash) section of the image comes at the end of the longer shutter interval.

For example, if you have someone running in the shot, then the run will be motion blur, and the final frozen image will be of their face and body at the end of the run.

If this "motion blur with studio strobe" style of shooting wasn't commonly understood, why do so many cameras have a setting specifically for it?

Second curtain sync was possible with the Canon A1 and Speedlite 199A flashgun back in the 1980s. Many Canon EOS film cameras also have this capability as a custom function.

Frozen Instant Imagery wrote:
Just one other point that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: many (not all) cameras have an option called "rear curtain sync" - this setting is used to cause the flash to be fired just before the second curtain starts.

I mentioned and explained "2nd curtain" flash sync above, in the third post of this thread.

Also, as I mentioned, there are some pro compact cameras with leaf shutters (no rear/2nd curtain) that can be set to trip the flash just before the shutter closes.

The Other Place wrote:
I mentioned and explained "2nd curtain" flash sync above, in the third post of this thread.

Also, as I mentioned, there are some pro compact cameras with leaf shutters (no rear/2nd curtain) that can be set to trip the flash just before the shutter closes.

You can also use "open flash". You set the shutter on B and fire the flash manually at the right moment, without synchronisation.

JSouthworth wrote:
You can also use "open flash". You set the shutter on B and fire the flash manually at the right moment, without synchronisation.

That's an option, but that technique is more susceptible to motion streaks through and on both sides of the frozen image of the subject, as there is often a period of time between when the flash trips and when the shutter is manually closed.

The Other Place wrote:
That's an option, but that technique is more susceptible to motion streaks through and on both sides of the frozen image of the subject, as there is often a period of time between when the flash trips and when the shutter is manually closed.

Correct, with ambient lighting you would typically get motion blur on both sides of the image from the flash. You could use the 1 second or two second speeds instead of B. The advantage would be that you can fire the flash at the peak of the action. The model would begin to move on hearing the shutter open, it could work quite well I think. Most modern cameras allow intermediate shutter speeds at intervals of 1/2 stop or 1/3 stop, so you can adjust the time quite precisely to allow the model to complete the movement during the exposure.

JSouthworth wrote:
Correct, with ambient lighting you would typically get motion blur on both sides of the image from the flash. You could use the 1 second or two second speeds instead of B. The advantage would be that you can fire the flash at the peak of the action. The model would begin to move on hearing the shutter open, it could work quite well I think. Most modern cameras allow intermediate shutter speeds at intervals of 1/2 stop or 1/3 stop, so you can adjust the time quite precisely to allow the model to complete the movement during the exposure.

Generally, it's easier and cleaner to just use 2nd-curtain shutter or just shoot with normal flash sync and have the subject move backwards.

Of course, one can also just shoot without motion blur and then add the blur/streaks during editing.

The Other Place wrote:

I mentioned and explained "2nd curtain" flash sync above, in the third post of this thread.

Also, as I mentioned, there are some pro compact cameras with leaf shutters (no rear/2nd curtain) that can be set to trip the flash just before the shutter closes.

I missed that.

I do think the question is valid - if that option is not for use in “motion blur + sharp flash” images, why does it exist?

JSouthworth wrote:

Second curtain sync was possible with the Canon A1 and Speedlite 199A flashgun back in the 1980s. Many Canon EOS film cameras also have this capability as a custom function.

So you are pointing out that it has been around a long time. Doesn’t that add credence to it being a function that is used by enough photographers to make it worth including? Can you suggest any other use for it other than “motion blur + flash” images?

The Other Place wrote:
Generally, it's easier and cleaner to just use 2nd-curtain shutter or just shoot with normal flash sync and have the subject move backwards.

Of course, one can also just shoot without motion blur and then add the blur/streaks during editing.

Well it all depends on what effect you're looking for doesn't it? The point of second curtain sync is obviously that you can use it to get a different motion blur effect from first curtain sync, but you would still only get motion blur on one side of the flash image.

What you could do is set a slow shutter speed and use the self-timer to operate the shutter, enabling you to concentrate fully on timing the flash to coincide with the peak of the action.

Frozen Instant Imagery wrote:
I do think the question is valid - if that option is not for use in “motion blur + sharp flash” images, why does it exist?

No doubt, the "2nd curtain" option was developed for a motion blur and flash combination that automatically put the blur streaks behind the moving subject.

However, it could be useful for other applications.  Let's say that the key light on the subject is a strobe, and that it is necessary to "drag the shutter" to expose the rest of the set with the existing ambient illumination.  Now, suppose that the subject has phosphorescent surfaces, but it is undesirable for those surfaces to glow in the photograph.  In that scenario, it would be ideal to fire the strobe just before the shutter closes.

JSouthworth wrote:
Well it all depends on what effect you're looking for doesn't it?

Almost everyone who uses 2nd curtain sync does so for the exact same reason.

JSouthworth wrote:
The point of second curtain sync is obviously that you can use it to get a different motion blur effect from first curtain sync, but you would still only get motion blur on one side of the flash image.

The obvious point of 2nd curtain sync is to automatically have the motion streaks appear behind the moving subject.

JSouthworth wrote:
What you could do is set a slow shutter speed and use the self-timer to operate the shutter, enabling you to concentrate fully on timing the flash to coincide with the peak of the action.

Such a method would likely yield erratic results, especially if the subject is running or jumping.

In your scenario one has to separately time the "peak of the action"  and the moment the shutter closes.   Assuming that one can nail the "peak of the action" with the strobe, if that moment doesn't occur just before the shutter closes, then one could suffer motion streaks across the subject (which is easily avoided when utilizing the 2nd curtain feature).  Also, what if one fails to fire the strobe at the peak of the action?

Studio NSFW wrote:
It’s ok to not respond when you don’t understand the topic.

JSouthworth wrote:

"What you could do is set a slow shutter speed and use the self-timer to operate the shutter, enabling you to concentrate fully on timing the flash to coincide with the peak of the action."

Actually JSouthworth wrote an answer that was not only technically correct, but realistically applicable to general photography.  Sounds like JSouthworth responded to a question that s/he indeed knows something about.

shadow_show wrote:
Hi

Seeking some advice , is it possible to capture portraits with varying amounts of motion blur whilst using studio flash ?

Presumably this would partially be achieved with a slow shutter speed but Ive no idea how this would work with flash (...)

What you're shooting doesn't matter (traditional portraits, products, action portraiture, etc.) the only thing that matters is *how much action is taking place during the duration of the flash *   If the flash duration is 1/2,000th of a second and the blades of a fan rotate all the way around during that time for example, then the resulting photograph will be blurred.  If the fan blades only moved 3mm during the 1/2,000th flash duration, then the resulting photograph will look relatively sharp.  If a person's body movement is imperceptible within, say, 1/2,000th of a second - then the resulting photograph will look very sharp.

You don't need ambient light to show motion/action when using strobes - you just need relatively fast action commensurate to the flash duration... the longer the flash duration, the slower the action can be to see motion blur.  The shorter the flash duration, the faster the action must me to record the resulting motion blur.  Everything is relative.

If you have ambient lighting in the room - you can just select a relatively slow shutter speed (1/40th second for example), and the flash will typically pop when the shutter opens, and afterwards the camera is recording whatever motion may be present during the remainder of that 1/40th of a second shutter speed.

If you set your camera to rear sync, rear curtain, etc., then the camera will record the pop the flash when the shutter closes (not when it opens) which means the flash doesn't pop until the very end of the exposure... so any resulting motion blur will likely be seen before the flash pops... however if the motion is fast enough and or the flash duration long enough (e.g. 1/300th of a second) then motion blur can also be recorded during the time that the exposure is illuminated by the flash.

I'd recommend learning these basic photography concepts and understanding them well, as they can really increase your ability to use your strobes in ways that maximize your artistic pursuits.

1.  motion blur can be easily detected at 1/3,000th of a second when using strobes, which is why short flash durations of  1/7,000 and shorter are highly sought after by many photographers when photographing fast moving powders and liquids for example.

2.  you don't need ambient light to create discernible motion blur when using studio strobes... but ambient lighting in the room or outdoors, coupled with slower shutter speeds, do make it easier to create photograph depicting movement.

3.  remember that what's fast/slow is relative.  So whilst a flash duration of 1/2,000th may seem fast to one photographer, it may prove far too slow for the work of another photographer.

4.  generally speaking your flash duration will be faster when your strobe is at lower power, conversely (again generally speaking) when you turn the power up on your strobes, the flash duration becomes longer "slower".   A strobe may offer a flash duration of 1/300th of a sec at full power, and 1/4,000th of a second when the strobe is turned to it's lower power (just an example).  The associated flash durations of a respective studio strobe is usually published in the products literature/owners manual.

Teila K Day Photography wrote:
What you're shooting doesn't matter (traditional portraits, products, action portraiture, etc.) the only thing that matters is *how much action is taking place during the duration of the flash

I suspect that Teila K Day is talking about a different situation.

It appears that he is NOT talking about the more common scenario where the ambient light is deliberately used to capture (deliberate) motion blur and then the flash is triggered at the end to freeze the details of the moving subject (over top of the motion blur sequence).

He appears to be talking about any motion blur that happens within the flash duration time itself.

That's if I understand his various statements correctly...

LightDreams wrote:
I suspect that Teila K Day is talking about a different situation.

It appears that he is NOT talking about the more common scenario where the ambient light is deliberately used to capture (deliberate) motion blur and then the flash is triggered at the end to freeze the details of the moving subject (over top of the motion blur sequence).

He appears to be talking about any motion blur that happens within the flash duration time itself.

That's if I understand his various statements correctly...

This takes us back to the basic problem, that the duration of the flash is often too short for motion blur effects unless the action is very fast, or the flash equipment is designed to allow a longer flash duration than usual, as with some high end Broncolor studio flash systems.

JSouthworth wrote:
... the duration of the flash is often too short for motion blur effects unless the action is very fast...

Thanks for that insight, Cap'n.

JSouthworth wrote:
... or the flash equipment is designed to allow a longer flash duration than usual, as with some high end Broncolor studio flash systems.

Not sure if there are flashes "designed to allow a longer duration," but there certainly are strobes engineered for short flash durations.

LightDreams wrote:
I suspect that Teila K Day is talking about a different situation.

It appears that he is NOT talking about the more common scenario where the ambient light is deliberately used to capture (deliberate) motion blur and then the flash is triggered at the end to freeze the details of the moving subject (over top of the motion blur sequence).

He appears to be talking about any motion blur that happens within the flash duration time itself.

That's if I understand his various statements correctly...

Actually I (she) covered virtually every scenario in that single post with an emphasis on answering the OP's question which was predicated on creating motion blur in conjunction with flash.

OP:  "is it possible to capture portraits with varying amounts of motion blur whilst using studio flash ?"

1. I covered what it takes to create motion blur during the flash duration irrespective of the actual flash duration.
2. I covered motion blur with ambient mixed with flash.

... In answering the OP's question, those two things above cover everything regarding motion blur * in conjunction with flash.*  Because, (a) either you have only flash (b) you have flash + ambient.

What the OP is lacking is a basic understanding of what is actually causing motion blur, and how to manipulate where the blur starts and or stops, with flash (front curtain, rear curtain, etc.).    ** When the OP understands how that works, s/he can also manually pop the flash at slower shutter speeds, to get the desired artistic effect (e.g. at other points during the exposure OTHER THAN the beginning or end of the exposure).


Teila also said...

"IF YOU HAVE AMBIENT LIGHTING IN THE ROOM - you can just select a relatively slow shutter speed (1/40th second for example), and the flash will typically pop when the shutter opens, and afterwards the camera is recording whatever motion may be present during the remainder of that 1/40th of a second shutter speed.

If you set your camera to rear sync, rear curtain, etc., then the camera will record the pop the flash when the shutter closes (not when it opens) which means the flash doesn't pop until the very end of the exposure... so any resulting motion blur will likely be seen before the flash pops... however if the motion is fast enough and or the flash duration long enough (e.g. 1/300th of a second) then motion blur can also be recorded during the time that the exposure is illuminated by the flash."

I covered the basic concept that applies to EVERY situation regarding motion blur in conjunction with flash, in that single post.   Front / Rear sync with ambient+flash, and motion blur during the flash duration without ambient.

LightDreams wrote:

I suspect that Teila K Day is talking about a different situation.

It appears that he is NOT talking about the more common scenario where the ambient light is deliberately used to capture (deliberate) motion blur and then the flash is triggered at the end to freeze the details of the moving subject (over top of the motion blur sequence).

He appears to be talking about any motion blur that happens within the flash duration time itself.

That's if I understand his various statements correctly...

How did you even remotely come to that conclusion if you actually read and comprehended my post?  Did you not see paragraphs 3 & 4?   ...  because they clearly talk about...

" the more common scenario where the ambient light is deliberately used to capture (deliberate) motion blur and then the flash is triggered at the end to freeze the details of the moving subject (over top of the motion blur sequence)."

You have to comprehend what you read guys

The Other Place wrote:
Not sure if there are flashes "designed to allow a longer duration," but there certainly are strobes engineered for short flash durations..

The Broncolor MOVE pack and Broncolor Siros strobes were engineered to do just that, to EXTEND the flash duration even though Broncolor is known for their product having short flash durations.  This is when Broncolor used HS (hyper sync)  as opposed to HSS (high speed sync).  The difference is that HS uses a single flash with a relatively long flash duration, which can allow one to use faster shutter speeds beyond the manufacturer's published sync speed for a particular camera.  In contrast HSS uses fast pulses of light to SIMULATE a long flash duration for the same effect.   Each method has pros and cons.

**Broncolor has ditched HS and has gone with HSS in it's newer studio packs that debuted in the last quarter of 2023. The Satos packs, which give the photographer the ability to mix continuous temperature controlled lighting with temp. controlled flash... all from the same strobe unit for an endless breadth of artistic options whether using battery or mains power.

The Other Place wrote:
Not sure if there are flashes "designed to allow a longer duration," but there certainly are strobes engineered for short flash durations.

.......And also some that are engineered for allow longer flash durations, to enable motion blur effects and synchronisation with focal plane shutters....