Dan Howell wrote:
while I have given that methodology a thought, I have never hired a model through a large agency for a test shoot. I have always presented a concise plan for a test shoot to an agency and either received a rejection or a list of models to choose from. I would highly recommend using the money to hire a fashion stylist and MUA instead of approaching a large agency with a small modeling feel. It might be counter intuitive but I would think they would respond more to a better produced test/TFP than they would to a small modeling fee.

Thanks, Dan.

Did your outlines include more than a mood board and a general concept? Also, did you already have a website and high follower count, or did you attach a few images to the email?

I tried reaching out for test shoots with larger agencies in the past. I included a few portfolio samples when I did. I would say that I had a decent initial response rate; however, the agents that did reply either A) didn't have models in the DC area or B) asked to see work from previous test shoots in addition to work I already sent.

None of the portfolio images I sent are on this site.

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
Your question may or may not become skewed by mentioning Wilhelmina.

I don't know if they still do it but for awhile Wilhelmina licensed their name to other agencies, often small ones including shady ones.  "Wilhelmina Talent Scouting" was also one of the names associated with one of Lou Perlmans many scams that helped land him in prison.

I was not familiar with Lou or his scams before now. My intentions are pure.

G Reese wrote:
Uh well, hmmmm. It seems like that was a lifetime ago, but yes.  My choice was a mother agency first. They refered me to a booking agent. I got a break on the model's rate for 4 shots from the shoot. This was Chicago in the loop. I'd take Dan's advise as well. 
At that point I had finished 2 years shooting for the Army plus shooting with the odd model here and there. If that tells you anything.   Best of luck.

Edited for spelling :-)

Okay, thank you.

Model Sarah wrote:
No one does this. Including famous photographers I have worked with. The only time you see this is typically in larger cities and only in fashion. When I worked with Terry Richardson I asked him about this actually. He called them "clothes hangers" and said they didn't seem realistic - his words. A few other well known photographers have said similar things. While someone with my experience is not a fashion model - usually agency models - I likely have a ton more experience than someone in an agency. Unless it is a large production and you don't have the time to sift through models such as myself on a site like this, I don't know why you'd use an agency. Seems like throwing money away that could be better served by us starving artists.

Watch it lady,  you aren't all that far away. (evil ear to ear grin)  Ten years ago, I would agree. Now, no. Hard enough just getting one to respond let alone show up. I'd bet you were NEVER a no call no show.

The OP speaks of the big 3. Just isn't going to happen. Wouldn't even get passed the receptionist.

Famous photographers? I used to know one years ago, in Columbus.  You may know who I mean.

I do value your input. If a newb model asked me who to go to for advice, you would be on that list.

Be well, keep giving us hell. :-)

Certain Exposures wrote:
Thanks, Dan.

Did your outlines include more than a mood board and a general concept? Also, did you already have a website and high follower count, or did you attach a few images to the email?

I tried reaching out for test shoots with larger agencies in the past. I included a few portfolio samples when I did. I would say that I had a decent initial response rate; however, the agents that did reply either A) didn't have models in the DC area or B) asked to see work from previous test shoots in addition to work I already sent.

None of the portfolio images I sent are on this site.

i'll just deal with the most recent cases. In the cases where I did not contact the model directly, I have generally dealt with agencies were I or my client have booked models with in the past. In three of the most recent test/editorial spec.-submission shoots I have done, I did not include more than a mood board and specific information about the shoot location (one was my own studio; two were exclusive locations I had access to). I likely told them I had stylist and make up, but I don't believe I gave their links. I could have but I just don't remember.

Beyond that I would think the booker either gets it or they are not going to. More generally I doubt they have the time to chase down all of the links. When I used this type of communication I would generally get a lightbox with a dozen or more candidates to choose from.

G Reese wrote:
Hard enough just getting one to respond let alone show up. I'd bet you were NEVER a no call no show.

That is the reason I'm considering approaching more agencies. I haven't seen a correlation between the amount I pay a model and their professionalism. I.e., I've done TFP shoots with models that showed up on time, prepared as we discussed, and were a pleasure to work with.

On the other hand, I've organized paid shoots with rented studio space where models arrived late or canceled at the last minute, did not come prepared as we discussed, and were not enjoyable to work with.

Lately, I've been traveling out of state for paid studio photoshoots because there are more options. I want to reduce the uncertainty when dealing with models. Just paying hasn't done that.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
In over 40 years of having photographed models, I've never hired a model from any of the major model Talent Agencies.  Never had a reason to do so...

As for photographers going to modeling agencies, I don't see any purpose for doing that when there are plenty of potential models to photograph and pay directly to the model for their time...

I also shot many on a TFP basis and then there were some I would pay. As the years have gone by, I find that I'm paying the models more often than not...

Paying the models directly is the best way!   Avoid agencies!

Thanks. My reply above includes more context on why I was interested in agencies.

What price point are you working at when you pay models? Do you get last-minute cancelations, late arrivals, and unprepared talent often? Also, are you generally working at public locations or paying for studio time?

Thomas Van Dyke wrote:
"...I would highly recommend using the money to hire a fashion stylist and MUA..." I share the same mindset as this wisdom from Mr Howell (whom I've followed for well over a decade on MM)... Dan has been in this craft as a commercial photographer long enough to know which way the wind blows.

Myself? My entry into the "Fashion / Beauty Genre" was primarily as a Makeup Artist for other top players in my market. As such the skill and wisdom gleaned "Onset" was priceless and precious". Albeit my Studio's revenue stream came primarily from Wedding i.e. Bridal Makeup gigs... In an couple of hours or so both my assistant and I would be out the door unless or contract predicated staying for the duration for "touch ups". Recompense per hour was comparable to high end wedding shooters "net" 

To the OP... Yes agency talent are certainly worth their hire, I've worked with many... primarily before they were signed. Specifically in my market this is T.H.E. Artist Agency... many of the models on both their new faces and main board passed through our studio before being signed... Our team truly enjoyed the synergy latent within these collaboratives...  As Dan mentioned Agency Hires are simply a required "expense" passed through to the client.

Best Advice for the OP?  If you are truly sincere in seeking a path into high end fashion/beauty work... First and foremost please consider assisting other commercial shooters in your market. This has been my path and it was expedited through becoming an ASMP Associate Member at the advice of one of the gifted shooters I do Makeup Artistry for... While this worked well for me, your (and others) experience may vary.

Also you would be wise to reconsider investing any time on Mayhem and instead build a substantial IG (Instagram) presence and following... Keep in mind you'll be virtually invisible until you have at least 500+ followers... Nearly all my Fashion & Beauty Model "Talent" are now coming from my IG presence...

I'm actually rather surprised the Dan Howell is still active on MM, which has pretty much become merely a vehicle for "Soft Porn" and now is a stocking ground of female models who don't meet the height/weight agency requirements thus with literally little if any hope for Agency representation they have instead become "Fine Art" models for "Soft Porn" shooters who now dominate MM... 

My mission purpose on MM now?  At this juncture is to champion the Fashion/Beauty genres which a decade or so ago where heavily represented on Mayhem... that was until Mayhem band 16 year old talent (thus closing the door as being a potential entry portal for aspiring young talent seeking agency representation).   Candle in the wind? Possibly, albeit I seek the higher ground for a rather compelling reason...  a.k.a. I strive to honor femininity rather than exploit it... enough said...

Wishing all here much joy and success on your career journey...
Cheers! Thomas

Thanks, Thomas. Interesting commentary and points here.

I will take your advice about building up an IG. I haven't bothered with it much.

Dan Howell wrote:

i'll just deal with the most recent cases. In the cases where I did not contact the model directly, I have generally dealt with agencies were I or my client have booked models with in the past. In three of the most recent test/editorial spec.-submission shoots I have done, I did not include more than a mood board and specific information about the shoot location (one was my own studio; two were exclusive locations I had access to). I likely told them I had stylist and make up, but I don't believe I gave their links. I could have but I just don't remember.

Beyond that I would think the booker either gets it or they are not going to. More generally I doubt they have the time to chase down all of the links. When I used this type of communication I would generally get a lightbox with a dozen or more candidates to choose from.

Thanks, Dan!

Certain Exposures wrote:
Thanks. My reply above includes more context on why I was interested in agencies.

What price point are you working at when you pay models? Do you get last-minute cancelations, late arrivals, and unprepared talent often? Also, are you generally working at public locations or paying for studio time?

Due to inflation and location, it is typical for me to pay a model an average of $125 an hour .. often times it's $400 for a half day.  I do not typically pay more than that.  In the past I started out with paying models $20 for modeling back in the 1980's, so you can see the effect that inflation has.  Models get more per hour because they do not typically work fulltime as models.  With agencies, they will take a cut of the pay which means that it might be more expensive per hour. An agency will make sure that the releases are signed and that the model will show up.  If for some reason the model is not able to do the job, then someone else will be sent in place of that model. 

With going through an agency or going directly to the model, pay will depend on the location, such as West Coast verses East Coast, city verses country, and status of the model with regards to experience, appearance and the vision of the photographer.  I was able to scout models in person which makes a huge difference verses networking online.  I still have old school habits that allow me to catch red flags before booking.

I've paid for studio time just once iin LA, California.  The photographer who owned the studio acted as the booking agent for the model.  He made sure that releases were signed and the model was there.  I had a van, so I brought my own lighting equipment. This was back in the very early 2000's, and I was shooting film so I knew and trusted my own lighting over the other photographers.  Was it worth it?  Barely.  I would not do it again.  Over the years I've had my own studio, and locations I could use. 

The number of models who flaked or were late on me could be counted on one hand per year even at my busiest times when I booked with many per year.  Using multple methods of communcation helps.  I don't even consider a shoot "booked" unitl I've spoken to the model on the phone at least once.  I even had a deaf model find away to call me. I use multiple web platforms to do my vetting with MM being only one of many. If the model is traveling, I will see if it is possible to set up at least a remote chat that is visual for us both.  Being from the old days, I like to meet models in advance in person.  I used to hold my own model calls at schools, or even coffee shops as so I get to know the person. When they are really great, I like working with models on a repeat basis if at all possible. These things reduce the number of problems I've had with anyone flaking or being late.

Here is a thread I wrote as to my methods of having had so few models that flake or are late; 
>>  https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/172526  << you can still read it and ask me questions on here.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Due to inflation and location, it is typical for me to pay a model an average of $125 an hour .. often times it's $400 for a half day.  I do not typically pay more than that.  In the past I started out with paying models $20 for modeling back in the 1980's, so you can see the effect that inflation has.  Models get more per hour because they do not typically work fulltime as models.  With agencies, they will take a cut of the pay which means that it might be more expensive per hour. An agency will make sure that the releases are signed and that the model will show up.  If for some reason the model is not able to do the job, then someone else will be sent in place of that model. 

With going through an agency or going directly to the model, pay will depend on the location, such as West Coast verses East Coast, city verses country, and status of the model with regards to experience, appearance and the vision of the photographer.  I was able to scout models in person which makes a huge difference verses networking online.  I still have old school habits that allow me to catch red flags before booking.

I've paid for studio time just once iin LA, California.  The photographer who owned the studio acted as the booking agent for the model.  He made sure that releases were signed and the model was there.  I had a van, so I brought my own lighting equipment. This was back in the very early 2000's, and I was shooting film so I knew and trusted my own lighting over the other photographers.  Was it worth it?  Barely.  I would not do it again.  Over the years I've had my own studio, and locations I could use. 

The number of models who flaked or were late on me could be counted on one hand per year even at my busiest times when I booked with many per year.  Using multple methods of communcation helps.  I don't even consider a shoot "booked" unitl I've spoken to the model on the phone at least once.  I even had a deaf model find away to call me. I use multiple web platforms to do my vetting with MM being only one of many. If the model is traveling, I will see if it is possible to set up at least a remote chat that is visual for us both.  Being from the old days, I like to meet models in advance in person.  I used to hold my own model calls at schools, or even coffee shops as so I get to know the person. When they are really great, I like working with models on a repeat basis if at all possible. These things reduce the number of problems I've had with anyone flaking or being late.

Here is a thread I wrote as to my methods of having had so few models that flake or are late; 
>>  https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/172526  << you can still read it and ask me questions on here.

Thanks, I agree with your advice in your thread and follow most of those tips already. I've never done in-person casting, though. That might be worth trying out for my next paid shoot. Have you done that recently?

What sort of restrictions, if any, do you put on the model's use of your shots when you work with someone you paid $125/hourly or a $400 day rate? I've allowed all models to use the work we created in their portfolio, regardless of payment, until now. I'm reconsidering usage restrictions for various reasons. Especially in cases where I've booked a studio, traveled, and paid a day rate.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can't imagine any licensed professional agency allowing models to shoot for payment with non- vetted photographers.  The idea is to test with agency models if possible.  Take your book to the agency and see what they say.  They may have a model in their new faces division who needs to shoot.  Some may let you work with one or two to get a feel for what you can do.  However unless you show the kind of work the agency can use you won't get to shoot their models and that includes if you can pay.  I'm speaking of the agencies the OP mentioned, FORD or IMG. 

Smaller boutique agencies may be more open to payment by a photographer for their models.  Look here and Facbook and IG.  There are a lot of former agency models  who do this part time.  While doing this find a local MUA.  One way to get good looking shots is to go to some of the better workshops.  They usually have fantastic models.  You'll get to meet nice shooters and you'll learn.

Thanks, I am slowly putting together another portfolio to shop around.

Certain Exposures wrote:
Thanks, I agree with your advice in your thread and follow most of those tips already. I've never done in-person casting, though. That might be worth trying out for my next paid shoot. Have you done that recently?

What sort of restrictions, if any, do you put on the model's use of your shots when you work with someone you paid $125/hourly or a $400 day rate? I've allowed all models to use the work we created in their portfolio, regardless of payment, until now. I'm reconsidering usage restrictions for various reasons. Especially in cases where I've booked a studio, traveled, and paid a day rate.

In person casting is the same thing as a model call. You can call it a model search too.  First you'll need a place to hold it.  Check out colleges as they often have rooms available.  I look for schools that have theater arts like drama and dance, as they often need a photographer. There are some junior colleges like the one I went to that had a fashion club. Don't pass up the music department either.  People in the performing arts departments are my favorite models to work with as that is the educational curriculum that I enjoyed the most. Search online for colleges, then call and scout out the locations.

Schedule a date for your model call. Hopefully you'll find a venue that wont cost too much if anything. If my suggestion is off a bit, as you can tell from what I've written, I go more for "looks" that may not fit in the fashion realm.  So check out fashion stores that you like, and start promoting your model call via social media and person to person hand out of flyers. Be sure to have a link or two to your work.  If you are looking for fitness models, then go to the gyms and sports events. 

Okay, I think you get the idea?  It takes an extrovert who will go out there meeting people, asking questions and then finding the right people to work with.  You are scouting for talent which is something an agency would do for you if you were paying them. I have not done it in awhile, but I'm getting ready to do so soon.  I still hand out cards.  Recently I handed a card to a tall, young lady who owns a vintage clothing store in town, and she sings!  All that while standing inline at a local grocery store. We had both seen each other around town before, so striking up a conversation didn't seem weird.

If getting around town is not comfortable for you, then use social media.  You can video chat with people via on Facebook.  There are plenty of model/photographer groups there.  The Internet is a great tool, but it has it's faults. That is why I suggest video chatting because communication that way is far better than trying to figure out what someone means with texting!  Better to see and talk with a person in real time.

As for models "use of images" most experienced models in the higher pay scale do not expect to get any of the photos.  It is that way if you hire through an agency too. So I don't necessarily give any photos to them, which also means I am not giving them the rights of use.  However I make exceptions for those I've worked with before and have developed a good working relationship with.  Those models that are eager to shoot, and indicate that they will lower their fee for an exchange of photos is sort of like TFP in a way.  I talk with the potential model to find out if they are wantng to get some photos. Generally I pay even the models who are wanting to shoot for photos. especially if they traveled to me. 

What I'm saying is that it is all negotiable.  If I am covering the cost of studio rental, travel, and other expenses, then depending on what the purpose of the shoot is for, I will consider those factors into what I pay the model. So you see that going through an agency adds more costs to a shoot, but they do the foot work. I like doing my own foot work. For what you will be doing, I encourage you to have restrictions on use. If I really like a model, I'll send her a half dozen JPEGS that she can use for display and promotion, but not for sale.

Now you know that I am a writer too! 

Patrick Walberg wrote:
In person casting is the same thing as a model call. You can call it a model search too.  First you'll need a place to hold it.  Check out colleges as they often have rooms available.  I look for schools that have theater arts like drama and dance, as they often need a photographer. There are some junior colleges like the one I went to that had a fashion club. Don't pass up the music department either.  People in the performing arts departments are my favorite models to work with as that is the educational curriculum that I enjoyed the most. Search online for colleges, then call and scout out the locations.

No offense but the original question was fairly specific. I think given the photographer’s stated objective and location, your suggestions are generally misplaced or apply to different situations than the one described. He is not going to get a live casting/go-see for a test shoot—for a number of reasons. From your first post in this thread you admitted no experience on this topic. I would advise caution in attempting making suggestions on such specific topic without corresponding experience.

G Reese wrote:

Watch it lady,  you aren't all that far away. (evil ear to ear grin)  Ten years ago, I would agree. Now, no. Hard enough just getting one to respond let alone show up. I'd bet you were NEVER a no call no show.

The OP speaks of the big 3. Just isn't going to happen. Wouldn't even get passed the receptionist.

Famous photographers? I used to know one years ago, in Columbus.  You may know who I mean.

I do value your input. If a newb model asked me who to go to for advice, you would be on that list.

Be well, keep giving us hell. :-)

DON'T THREATEN ME WITH A GOOD TIME! (seriously I am retiring this year.)

No, you are half right with that but we pros still exist and are our own boss and are much easier to get to than an agency - we also aren't clothes hangers either.

You mean my old pal Chip, I assume. I just sent him a text the other night. One of the most talented photographers I have ever worked with.

Dan Howell wrote:

No offense but the original question was fairly specific. I think given the photographer’s stated objective and location, your suggestions are generally misplaced or apply to different situations than the one described. He is not going to get a live casting/go-see for a test shoot—for a number of reasons. From your first post in this thread you admitted no experience on this topic. I would advise caution in attempting making suggestions on such specific topic without corresponding experience.

You are correct that in my over 40 years of photography, I have never hired a model through an agency.  However I am providing alternatives from going to an agency.  It is not necessary to hire models through agencies to work with models that are capable of providing a photographer with excellent images.  Why couldn't the OP be able to arrange a live casting if he wanted to?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can't imagine any licensed professional agency allowing models to shoot for payment with non- vetted photographers.  The idea is to test with agency models if possible.  Take your book to the agency and see what they say.  They may have a model in their new faces division who needs to shoot.  Some may let you work with one or two to get a feel for what you can do.  However unless you show the kind of work the agency can use you won't get to shoot their models and that includes if you can pay.  I'm speaking of the agencies the OP mentioned, FORD or IMG. 

Smaller boutique agencies may be more open to payment by a photographer for their models.  Look here and Facbook and IG.  There are a lot of former agency models  who do this part time.  While doing this find a local MUA.  One way to get good looking shots is to go to some of the better workshops.  They usually have fantastic models.  You'll get to meet nice shooters and you'll learn.

If there is anyone who he should listen to, it would be you, Tony!  Chicago is a major industry fashion hub, especially for cataog work.  Being in a major city helps, but it is not easy to get an appointment with those who are in the major agencies to get them to look at your book.  It takes creative approaches to get in the door. That is why smaller boutique agencies are certainly the way to start.  I have been in a much smaller market where the local agents were far more approachable than big city.  My alternative suggestions are based on those experiences.  It was long ago, but I didn't have to pay to shoot with many of the models back in the 1980's through the 90's.  I'd help some of the models I worked with get to San Francisco or Los Angeles where they could do open calls with the bigger agencies.

Model Sarah wrote:

DON'T THREATEN ME WITH A GOOD TIME! (seriously I am retiring this year.)

No, you are half right with that but we pros still exist and are our own boss and are much easier to get to than an agency - we also aren't clothes hangers either.

You mean my old pal Chip, I assume. I just sent him a text the other night. One of the most talented photographers I have ever worked with.

Modelmayhem is a diverse place to find models to work with.  I'm glad that you are here. If a photographer is looking for a tall "clothes hanger" type model for fashion, they are here too.  I hope Chip is doing well.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Modelmayhem is a diverse place to find models to work with.  I'm glad that you are here. If a photographer is looking for a tall "clothes hanger" type model for fashion, they are here too.  I hope Chip is doing well.

No they aren't.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
If there is anyone who he should listen to, it would be you, Tony!  Chicago is a major industry fashion hub, especially for cataog work.  Being in a major city helps, but it is not easy to get an appointment with those who are in the major agencies to get them to look at your book.  It takes creative approaches to get in the door. That is why smaller boutique agencies are certainly the way to start.  I have been in a much smaller market where the local agents were far more approachable than big city.  My alternative suggestions are based on those experiences.  It was long ago, but I didn't have to pay to shoot with many of the models back in the 1980's through the 90's.  I'd help some of the models I worked with get to San Francisco or Los Angeles where they could do open calls with the bigger agencies.

And no he isn't. Tony is the type of guy that puts his comp cards in people's shopping carts. (Us models have been trying to show him the ropes for years. We just need Ken Marcus to teach us diplomacy in most cases)

Patrick Walberg wrote:

You are correct that in my over 40 years of photography, I have never hired a model through an agency.  However I am providing alternatives from going to an agency.  It is not necessary to hire models through agencies to work with models that are capable of providing a photographer with excellent images.  Why couldn't the OP be able to arrange a live casting if he wanted to?

Two things. First. He didn’t ask for alternatives to agencies. Second. He’s not going to get a live casting for a test shoot because fashion agencies are going to send a lightbox not set up a casting. There could be a number of reasons but one surely is that they don’t want their models to go to the expense of traveling g to a go see for a no or low paying project when they can create a lightbox in short order. That’s just the way it is done. I thought that’s what the OP was asking for—information from experienced practitioners.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Modelmayhem is a diverse place to find models to work with.  I'm glad that you are here. If a photographer is looking for a tall "clothes hanger" type model for fashion, they are here too.  I hope Chip is doing well.

Model Sarah wrote:
No they aren't.

Okay, so I did a search for models that fit the typical stats of models who do "fashion" shoots by height only 5'9" to 6'1" .. and there are fewer than 3,000 in the United States. I'm not even going to search in more detail by weight, etc.   Not the the website marketed towards fashion, but Modelmayhem wasn't that difficult to locate models years ago, at least I used to find fashion models who fit the stereotype pushed by the industry.  Many that I knew who fit that category have moved on.  A few are signed with agencies that wont like them being on this site.  Others I know personally have retired, had body changes from giving birth, gotten breast enhancements, or are just sick of the crap photographers give them. 

We have far fewer models here than in the past.  This forum is for discussion. I'm catching some criticism for presenting alternatives to using agencies from another person on here.  However it's good to present information regarding experiences along with alternatives to the stereotypical way of doing things.  Modelmayhem was a place to find models as an alternative to modeling agencies. I'm glad that you are still here!

You know me, I love diversity.  I photography many people of all shapes, sizes, ethicities and ages.  I'm not a fashion photographer although I might shoot fashion every once in a great while.  Agencies are not for me.  Since Tony is in Chicago, I thought he might know more about working with agencies.  I'm sure that from his vast experience, Ken Marcus can teach us all at least something.  Thus why I started the post asking about Ansel Adams camera gear in the Photographer section of the forum.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Okay, so I did a search for models that fit the typical stats of models who do "fashion" shoots by height only 5'9" to 6'1" .. and there are fewer than 3,000 in the United States. I'm not even going to search in more detail by weight, etc.   Not the the website marketed towards fashion, but Modelmayhem wasn't that difficult to locate models years ago, at least I used to find fashion models who fit the stereotype pushed by the industry.  Many that I knew who fit that category have moved on.  A few are signed with agencies that wont like them being on this site.  Others I know personally have retired, had body changes from giving birth, gotten breast enhancements, or are just sick of the crap photographers give them. 

We have far fewer models here than in the past.  This forum is for discussion. I'm catching some criticism for presenting

LA still has a lot of models here and generally around, but the model I currently shoot with I first saw in an artist's collection and asked him about her and to make an introduction. I've done that several times to find models. Some are forthcoming, others are not. Some models don't want to be known, others are down for whatever.

we're back to word of mouth, I'd recommend people optimize for that again because it really is a hybrid of pre-internet era but with email and lots of other forms of that

so although you can't filter by height, attributes, and genre comfort level, you can find what people are willing to pay for, and that still has heavy selective pressures on the female form

additionally, seeing a model in a recent project also means she showed up

so to OP and everyone here: pick up a magazine, or a digital vanity magazine, follow a couple artists that have private collectors, they do all the work of reaching out to models and filtering, and you can further filter from them