JSouthworth wrote:
I
Meanwhile in Gaza, the Israeli military are still killing a lot of civilians, alienating world opinion without achieving much in military or political terms.

The Palestinians have been launching rockets into Israel for over 20 years targeting civilians.   
Should the Brits not have responded bombing German cities killing civilians after Germany was launching V1 and V2 rockets into London?
BTW - What if Edward VIII, Hitler's buddy, was still king of the U.K. in 1939?

rxz wrote:
The Palestinians have been launching rockets into Israel for over 20 years targeting civilians.   
Should the Brits not have responded bombing German cities killing civilians after Germany was launching V1 and V2 rockets into London?
BTW - What if Edward VIII, Hitler's buddy, was still king of the U.K. in 1939?

The Israeli government displaces, oppresses and discriminates against the Palestinians. The Palestinian militia groups respond with terrorism and guerrilla warfare. Israel responds with air strikes and more arrests, assassinations and oppression. The Palestinians respond with suicide bombings. The Israelis respond with raids and air strikes. The Palestinians respond with terrorism and rockets. The Israelis respond by bombing Gaza...and so it continues.

The Israelis have much greater financial resources, they can afford expensive aircraft and armoured vehicles, you would think this would give them a huge advantage but particularly over the last two decades, organisations like Hezbollah and HAMAS have developed ways of reducing or negating the effectiveness of these weapons, they've studied military history (the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa for example) and they've learned to construct defensive fortifications, tunnels and bunkers to high standards. Their training has become much more thorough than previously.

The rocket has been a favourite weapon of Palestinian militia groups since the 1960s because it's portable, it can be fired from a simple lightweight launcher and yet it can be as destructive as a shell or aircraft bomb. HAMAS have learned to make their own rockets, they do that using ordinary steel tubing and common chemicals.

LightDreams wrote:
Ignoring JSouthworth's posts...

As if a pompous Brit  has any credibility on the Middle East.

Rule, Britannia!

LightDreams wrote:
“The only way to break out of this horrific cycle of violence is through two states,” Blinken said. “We have no illusions about how hard” that is, he said.

Barack Obama advocated a two state solution as well, but his presidency did not bring any real progress towards that goal. I think a single state would be better anyway. We have the successful example of South Africa.

JSouthworth wrote:
Without Israel, would 9/11 have happened? Not all Islamist or anti-US terror groups are Palestinian. But every such organisation from Al Qaida to the Baader-Meinhof gang has cited the Palestinian cause as justification. Objectively, the state of Israel is a liability to the US and UK in a political sense.

It's impossible to say for certain whether 9/11 would have happened without Israel. But the idea that Israelis die so that Americans don't have to is demonstrably false. Effective counter-terrorism depends on sound intelligence work and effective defensive measures, not human sacrifice.

Useful article here about the ongoing situation in Gaza;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr … stract.com

JSouthworth wrote:

It's impossible to say for certain whether 9/11 would have happened without Israel. But the idea that Israelis die so that Americans don't have to is demonstrably false. Effective counter-terrorism depends on sound intelligence work and effective defensive measures, not human sacrifice.

Useful article here about the ongoing situation in Gaza;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr … stract.com

"Without Israel, would 9/11 have happened? Not all Islamist or anti-US terror groups are Palestinian"

"It's impossible to say for certain whether 9/11 would have happened without Israel. "


Old chap, it's one thing to start a thread for the purpose of disgorging your opinions and fantasies based on your opinions and fantasies, but arguing with yourself is next level.

Focuspuller wrote:

JSouthworth wrote:
It's impossible to say for certain whether 9/11 would have happened without Israel. But the idea that Israelis die so that Americans don't have to is demonstrably false. Effective counter-terrorism depends on sound intelligence work and effective defensive measures, not human sacrifice.

Perhaps that's over-simplifying things. Terrorism, the use of violence by an organisation to create terror for political purposes, is a continuation of politics, like conventional warfare. So an initiative to solve a problem of terrorism must include an effort to address the political issues involved.

Over the last 75 years, the Israelis have tried repeatedly to suppress Palestinian resistance to their policies through the use of violence and failed every time. Particularly over the last year, they have in fact made the problem worse with actions calculated to provoke resentment among the Palestinian population, hence the title of this thread.

The actions of HAMAS on October 7 were terroristic in that they were intended to destroy the Israeli people's faith in their government. Israel's bombing of Gaza is terroristic for the same reason, because it's objective is to alienate the Palestinian people from HAMAS.

Mainstream UK politicians are supporting the US in it's opposition to demands for a ceasefire in Gaza on the grounds that it would represent a victory for HAMAS and by implication a victory for terrorism, ignoring the fact that the existence of Israel and it's racist, sectarian policies are de facto a principal cause of terrorism. It's also clear from past experience that Israel's military campaign will never defeat Palestinian resistance, even if it destroys HAMAS, which is not likely in my view.

Israel has already lost this war. Their illusion of military superiority has been broken, and the actions of their military against a civilian population have quite rightly alienated public opinion the world over.

JSouthworth wrote:
Jake Sullivan, Biden's national security adviser, has been on television trying to justify the Israeli military's attacks on hospitals in Gaza by saying that there are HAMAS tunnels underneath them. No good, because if the tunnels are deep underground, artillery, drone strikes and sniper fire will not have any effect, therefore there is no justification.

This is the basic problem the Israelis have in Gaza; the HAMAS tunnel system negates the effects of most of their weaponry while making it possible for the HAMAS fighters to move unseen and attack them from the rear, leading to paranoid Israeli soldiers shooting at anything that moves.

Has it not occurred to you that tunnels have entrances and if they're blocked or destroyed those inside will effectively be incarcerated and if they don't surrender will eventually die?
Well?

JSouthworth wrote:
Interesting Wikipedia article here about an episode during WW2 which could be compared with what the IDF have been attempting to do in Gaza:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_bombing_directive

Here's another article with useful statistics;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_o … r_II#Notes

Area bombing attacks on civilian populated areas are now prohibited under international law. But governments still resort to indiscriminate or speculative bombing when they don't have better military options.

"I simply must bomb Tanzania"- Idi Amin.

Here's a different view of the legality of Israel's military activities in Gaza, this one from an international lawyer who I imagine has a deeper understanding of the relevant issues than you do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdW6ISElci4

JSouthworth wrote:
Some Israelis like to refer to HAMAS as "Nazis", but if we are making comparisons between what is happening in Gaza and historical events such as the Warsaw uprising in 1944, or the earlier uprising in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw in 1943, we can see that it is the IDF who are playing the Nazis, in the first place because they are acting with an apparent total disregard for the safety of a civilian population who they appear to consider racially inferior, and also in the tactical sense, in that they are using tanks, aircraft and artillery against a guerrilla force which must rely on concealment and surprise.

The battle of Berlin in 1945 is another classic example of how determined defenders can delay and inflict heavy losses on a superior attacking force in urban warfare. The urban environment provides ample cover and concealment for the defenders, offsetting the attacking force's superior firepower.

Benjamin Netanyahu may have made the classic mistake of giving his army a task which is beyond it's capability.

Justification. Your overtly anti-Israeli narrative neglects to consider the atrocities committed against Israeli civilians immediately prior to military action being taken in Gaza. For your comparison to be remotely valid there would need to be, amongst other things, atrocities committed against Nazi Germany prior to the Nazi invasion of parts of Europe. Perhaps there weren't any - do let me know..

As for Israeli military capability - I expect it's more than adequate to deal with Hamas in Gaza. What's less certain is how much international political capital they're prepared to expend before they consider the job 'adequately done'.

P R E S T O N wrote:

Here's a different view of the legality of Israel's military activities in Gaza, this one from an international lawyer who I imagine has a deeper understanding of the relevant issues than you do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdW6ISElci4

The US and Israeli governments probably have the edge on HAMAS when it comes to hiring expensive lawyers to justify killing women, children and babies. But the conflict in Gaza is undermining the credibility of the UN and US foreign policy.

JSouthworth wrote:
The US and Israeli governments probably have the edge on HAMAS when it comes to hiring expensive lawyers to justify killing women, children and babies. But the conflict in Gaza is undermining the credibility of the UN and US foreign policy.

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Hamas is financed by Iran, which I have no doubt is also able to afford the funding of expensive lawyers.

P R E S T O N wrote:

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Hamas is financed by Iran, which I have no doubt is also able to afford the funding of expensive lawyers.

The Iranians don't need expensive lawyers, because the IDF are winning the arguments for them.

JSouthworth wrote:

The Iranians don't need expensive lawyers, because the IDF are winning the arguments for them.

Iranians? For god's sake. The Iranians are sponsoring a proxy war - you clearly do not understand what that entails.

Anyway, it's you who stated Hamas were disadvantaged in their ability to fund expensive lawyers, not me. Keep up dude.

JSouthworth wrote:
Some Israelis like to refer to HAMAS as "Nazis", but if we are making comparisons between what is happening in Gaza and historical events such as the Warsaw uprising in 1944, or the earlier uprising in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw in 1943, we can see that it is the IDF who are playing the Nazis, in the first place because they are acting with an apparent total disregard for the safety of a civilian population who they appear to consider racially inferior, and also in the tactical sense, in that they are using tanks, aircraft and artillery against a guerrilla force which must rely on concealment and surprise.

The battle of Berlin in 1945 is another classic example of how determined defenders can delay and inflict heavy losses on a superior attacking force in urban warfare. The urban environment provides ample cover and concealment for the defenders, offsetting the attacking force's superior firepower.

Benjamin Netanyahu may have made the classic mistake of giving his army a task which is beyond it's capability.

Nazi Germany ceased to exist in 1945, so to imagine that HAMAS are "nazis" is a paranoid delusion.

Invoking the Holocaust to justify an attack on the Palestinian civilian population might make sense to someone who believes that the rest of the world was complicit in the Holocaust, a popular idea among right-wing Israelis but again, paranoid and delusional.

JQuest wrote:
Godwin's law on full display here. This thread deserves/merits a mercy lock.

Any thoughts about the conflict in Israel? If so, this is the place to express them.


Good article from Reuters here;

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/wi … &ei=23

JSouthworth wrote:
Nazi Germany ceased to exist in 1945, so to imagine that HAMAS are "nazis" is a paranoid delusion.

Dude, you just labelled yourself as a paranoid delusionist in yet another act of dorkism; having stated yourself, earlier in your own thread, that 'it is the IDF who are playing the Nazis'! One just has to laugh at the self-annihilating stupidity of the things you come out with LOL:

JSouthworth wrote:
Some Israelis like to refer to HAMAS as "Nazis", but if we are making comparisons between what is happening in Gaza and historical events such as the Warsaw uprising in 1944, or the earlier uprising in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw in 1943, we can see that it is the IDF who are playing the Nazis, in the first place because they are acting with an apparent total disregard for the safety of a civilian population who they appear to consider racially inferior, and also in the tactical sense, in that they are using tanks, aircraft and artillery against a guerrilla force which must rely on concealment and surprise.

On the subject of stupidity resulting in self-annihilation, I'm confident that if you were to rock up in Gaza and offer your services to your terrorist mates, Darwin will get you within moments of you being provided with an AK by Hamas. Everyone knows you have an unhealthy fascination with weaponry, especially guns, but don't let that tempt you dude - you won't live to regret it.

JQuest wrote:
Godwin's law on full display here. This thread deserves/merits a mercy lock.

Unfortunately, anything short of a coup de grâce would just result in further hijacks and a plethora of new threads being spawned.

JSouthworth wrote:
... but no senior members of HAMAS as far as we know.

Well, sherlock, that's because they're all leading billionaire lifestyles in places like Qatar, not Gaza. They're much too smart for you who seems to expect the principal promoters of Hamas terrorist and fanatical ideology to place themselves at mortal risk, in the thick of it.

You obviously dismiss anything which doesn't fit with your overtly anti-Israeli and anti-US invective, but you really ought to properly consider and understand the full facts before pontificating. Lest you continue to look like a chump.

P R E S T O N wrote:
Well, sherlock, that's because they're all leading billionaire lifestyles in places like Qatar, not Gaza. They're much too smart for you who seems to expect the principal promoters of Hamas terrorist and fanatical ideology to place themselves at mortal risk, in the thick of it.

Do you have anything intelligent to say about anything? It doesn't look that way to me. HAMAS (an acronym for Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, or Islamic Resistance Movement) is a Palestinian organisation with a Palestinian leadership and agenda, the idea that they operate under orders from Iran or Qatar is nonsense. They receive financial support from a number of sources internationally, mainly governments sympathetic to their cause;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Ideologically, they are committed to opposing the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the sectarian and racist policies of the Israeli state, directly through armed resistance and actions designed to publicise the Palestinian cause internationally. Some of their actions can be described as terroristic, but so can those of the IDF in Gaza and the West Bank, if your definition of terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians to create terror for political purposes. In this context, most accusations of terrorism seem hypocritical or redundant.

The Palestinian Authority based in the occupied West Bank is widely regarded among Palestinians as being a corrupt and collaborationist organisation, I don't think they can or will take over control in Gaza anytime soon.

jSouthwood wrote:
Do you have anything intelligent to say about anything?

Do you think the majority of participants believe that your posts measure up to this lofty goal?

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

Do you think the majority of participants believe that your posts measure up to this lofty goal?

How would I know? Let me know how your survey turns out.