Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
A question for women models, reasons below.
How do you effectively turn down a photographer’s request to shoot you again after a session where you felt uncomfortable?
A model friend introduced this concern in conversation and I suggested that others may have faced the same challenge. My empathy is genuine but being neither woman or model my understanding can simply never be complete.
That said I offered to ask others for their thoughts and report back to her with methods that worked.
So, women models of MM, what suggestions do you have?
Thanks.
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11725
Olney, Maryland, US
rGlenndonShoots wrote:
How do you effectively turn down a photographer’s request to shoot you again after a session where you felt uncomfortable? rGlenndonShoots wrote:
How do you effectively turn down a photographer’s request to shoot . . . Just say "No".
I'm not going to beg the model.
I'm sorry for posting in this thread.
Edit: My wife has a book "How to Say It."
"Choice words, phrases, sentences & paragraphs for every situation."
I just couldn't resist. <grin>
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Mark Salo wrote:
Just say "No".
I'm not going to beg the model.
I'm sorry for posting in this thread.
Edit: My wife has a book "How to Say It."
<grin> - For better or less that catchphrase didn't really catch on outside of standup comedy because its super simplistic nature is simply ineffective.
- No you aren't, nice shameless plug though. DM me where the book is available online.
My immediate thought was similar. But I'm unqualified to give her a working answer realizing that I don't hesitate to fill up at 2am at even a sketchy gas station. My world, it's interactions and reactions from others is different than hers.
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I notice that models don't always participate in the forums. For reasons, of course.
Open invitation: If you're a model that's faced a similar situation, found a solution that works but don't want to reply here, for reasons, feel free to hit me on my IG.
Thanks
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11725
Olney, Maryland, US
I don't think of "No" as a catch phrase. I hope that the model won't feel compelled to insult me. I don't figure that it has anything to do with buying gasoline.
The book is available on Amazon. I'm really not plugging it, I've never read it and I doubt that my wife has read it either.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Your first 3 words immediately brought to mind the failed anti drug ad campaign. A slogan where actual study and comprehensive, in depth solutions were needed. Not strangely but perhaps arguably, more long term harm than good resulted.
Just last week I just said no to a model’s request for a shoot. Bad vibes. She simply didn’t respond. But just maybe allow that the chances of some level of negativity is more likely where genders are switched. While you and many of us won’t beg or harass the model several others might and do that and more. Every day. That is her very legitimate concern, especially given the vibes at her only other shoot with that photographer.
I don’t carry that concern. I don’t fear the 2am gas station in the “valley of the shadow of death”-sic. Because I’m the baddest MF in the valley. Lol, couldn’t resist.
But you see my point, yes? While mindless abuse of males by female perps does exist and should not be trivialized, the reverse is arguably more prevalent (sorry I don’t have numbers for that well accepted …fact).
So, call it male privilege. Maybe. But it makes the knee-jerk male solution of less value than one coming from someone in the same shoes as she.
Btw- I misread you, thinking your wife was the author. Apologies.
Forum chat is not my native language. I tend to say too little or too much. One-one conversation is my home.
C’est la vie… Here’s hoping for a model’s voice on the subject
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
rGlenndonShoots wrote:
Your first 3 words immediately brought to mind the failed anti drug ad campaign. A slogan where actual study and comprehensive, in depth solutions were needed. Not strangely but perhaps arguably, more long term harm than good resulted.
....
Here’s hoping for a model’s voice on the subject You are the one who titled your post "Saying no" and I agree that it is a failure.
The reason we see so few models mosting is more complex. It has to do with communication.
I would love to hear more from the models, but the vast majority of models I've worked with are no longer on Modelmayhem or last logged in many years ago.
Go here to post where more might read; https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/983359
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
You are the one who titled your post "Saying no" and I agree that it is a failure.
The reason we see so few models mosting is more complex. It has to do with communication.
I would love to hear more from the models, but the vast majority of models I've worked with are no longer on Modelmayhem or last logged in many years ago.
Go here to post where more might read; https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/983359 I did. It is. Though my my reply wasn’t intended to be an attack.
I understand complex. Sad that communication is preempted, it’s the primary road to understanding and ultimately, improvement. I’d sorely miss the MM heydays if I’d been there. Actually, in a way I miss them because I wasn’t.
Holding out for replies. I did get one dm, but it also sought an answer :::sigh::: The original model has become a friend and short of presenting myself as her agent … hmmm
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
rGlenndonShoots wrote:
I did. It is. Though my my reply wasn’t intended to be an attack.
I understand complex. Sad that communication is preempted, it’s the primary road to understanding and ultimately, improvement. I’d sorely miss the MM heydays if I’d been there. Actually, in a way I miss them because I wasn’t.
Holding out for replies. I did get one dm, but it also sought an answer :::sigh::: The original model has become a friend and short of presenting myself as her agent … hmmm I understand that you meant not as an attack. Communication can be "preempted" when someone thinks they already know what is meant before the true meaning is realized. As a photographer, I wish to listen to the models and by staying out of Model Colloquy or at least acknowledge models. When there are so few people posting, I continue to post in hopes of getting them to come back.
Model
Dea and the Beast
Posts: 4796
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
rGlenndonShoots wrote:
But I'm unqualified to give her a working answer realizing that I don't hesitate to fill up at 2am at even a sketchy gas station. My world, it's interactions and reactions from others is different than hers. Please, repeat this. On every platform you use. When we scream this at the people who need to hear it, they ignore us.
We are hoarse.
Model
Nat the droid
Posts: 95
Sacramento, California, US
Yeah...
"Just say no" totally works and I don't have multiple burner numbers "just in case", am vague about where I am and when with the exception of a few trusted people.
That was very extreme sarcasm.
My mom taught me a secret code word and to always carry coins in case I needed to use the payphone to let her know some guy was following me. My grandma used to sneak attack me to see if I could defend myself and get out of a headlock. When I was a child.
Having a network of models to check references with is good, but not perfect. I've had people use me as a "good reference" and went on to assault other models.
There's no simple answer but I appreciate you asking OP.
Photographer
Al_Vee Photography
Posts: 111
Asheville, North Carolina, US
I was a pro level arts and glamour model for more than a decade. This is my photographer account, as I'm now a photographer primarily. But, I am female and I started out as a model.
I'd just politely decline and say something like, "Unfortunately, I'm already booked up for this trip through your city/state, but I hope you have a wonderful day and thanks for reaching out!"
You really don't need to say anything else.
I had a few bad experiences over the years, but it was extremely uncommon. I let other traveling models know about my experiences with those individuals, so they could avoid them. That being said, I never made an issue about anything except the rare instances where someone behaved in a WILDLY inappropriate fashion.
I once had a photographer walk around with his privates hanging out of his pants and he was touching himself. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, kept my eyes straight ahead and hoped he'd get the message and that situation might have "never happened." I'd have let it go entirely. But, then he asked me straight up if I'd sleep with him. At that point, I knew it was a situation where I needed to let others know this individual was just gross.
Stuff like that only happened maybe 5ish times, in something like 12 years. It's rare, but if someone is just straight up nasty with you, warn others.
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Nat the droid wrote:
My mom taught me a secret code word and to always carry coins in case I needed to use the payphone to let her know some guy was following me. My grandma used to sneak attack me to see if I could defend myself and get out of a headlock. When I was a child.
Having a network of models to check references with is good, but not perfect. I've had people use me as a "good reference" and went on to assault other models.
There's no simple answer but I appreciate you asking OP. You’re right, there really is no simple one size fits all answer. But thanks for the awareness and preventive steps Nat.
Funny, not funny thing after my shoot with the model I’m asking this for… Everything went so well that we ran an easy, comfortable and friendly 45 minutes overtime. Walked back to the parking lot and as we sat in the grass to wrap up a car screeched to a halt at the exit making a loud, urgent u-turn. Turns out it was a family member that hadn’t got the all clear and had beelined it to the site (which was a last minute choice after security denied access to the planned location) to check up on things when time kept moving on without word.
Keeping at least one person informed of where the shoots take place and having agreed on check-ins are great ideas. Maybe also actually talking to that friend at breaks as a subtle tell that someone out there is aware also helps.
Suddenly a reel ran through my mind of a head over heels grandma giving a thumbs up as a 9 yo breaks a headlock with an over the shoulder judo flip!
It’s been a long day forgive me :::smiling:::
Model
Nat the droid
Posts: 95
Sacramento, California, US
rGlenndonShoots wrote:
You’re right, there really is no simple one size fits all answer. But thanks for the awareness and preventive steps Nat.
Funny, not funny thing after my shoot with the model I’m asking this for… Everything went so well that we ran an easy, comfortable and friendly 45 minutes overtime. Walked back to the parking lot and as we sat in the grass to wrap up a car screeched to a halt at the exit making a loud, urgent u-turn. Turns out it was a family member that hadn’t got the all clear and had beelined it to the site (which was a last minute choice after security denied access to the planned location) to check up on things when time kept moving on without word.
Keeping at least one person informed of where the shoots take place and having agreed on check-ins are great ideas. Maybe also actually talking to that friend at breaks as a subtle tell that someone out there is aware also helps.
Suddenly a reel ran through my mind of a head over heels grandma giving a thumbs up as a 9 yo breaks a headlock with an over the shoulder judo flip!
It’s been a long day forgive me :::smiling::: Oh she was still going strong surprising me in the aisles at Walmart a year before she passed lol
Yeah I had to do the "hey my boyfriend just texted me, i need to call him" thing where I texted a male friend to come over (usually just SOS) because some dumbass who wanted to hire me for art nudes got the brilliant last minute idea that he wanted to be nude and me to stay clothed.
In those situations my options are limited. I try to plan for ways out of anything, but sometimes you have a naked old dude staring at you and need to wait a few minutes before help arrives.
Photographer
rGlenndonShoots
Posts: 89
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Nat the droid wrote:
Oh she was still going strong surprising me in the aisles at Walmart a year before she passed lol
Yeah I had to do the "hey my boyfriend just texted me, i need to call him" thing where I texted a male friend to come over (usually just SOS) because some dumbass who wanted to hire me for art nudes got the brilliant last minute idea that he wanted to be nude and me to stay clothed.
In those situations my options are limited. I try to plan for ways out of anything, but sometimes you have a naked old dude staring at you and need to wait a few minutes before help arrives. I'm sure I would've liked your G-Ma! People should Live the kid inside as long as the flesh outside allows.
I think I'm going to offer her the choice of telling him herself or forwarding his number to me or any other friend for a business like, matter of fact denial.
For the record and in behalf of the majority of shooters who conduct business correctly, sorry that these things are real concerns to be aware of.
Photographer
Adventure Photos
Posts: 123
Palos Park, Illinois, US
The model has the right to choose. If the model is uncomfortable, has she thought of bringing an escort along on shoots? IF the money paid by this photographer is beyond average and hard to pass on. you might check to see if he allows a friend to be present, silent and out of the way during the shoot. Much depends on how eager a model is for making money if the photographer is known for paying big time But your personal comfort and choice do come first. Best of luck
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 431
Seattle, Washington, US
A lot of photographers might not like this response (judging from threads I've seen in the past), but my go-to in the situation is to not answer at all. If a photographer made me VERY uncomfortable, I've usually blocked them altogether. In the rare event that they get back in touch, I simply ignore the message.
Photographer
Photos_by_Stan
Posts: 287
Youngstown, Ohio, US
To be HONEST ....
I do not think the model "should" explain themselves as to why ...
This "could" give a ""bad vibe" kind of person a chance to change tactics on the NEXT person ....
IF you as a model didn't "feel right" ,, then do NOT give any reason that they could adapt for the next "victim"
I am fine knowing that models can and SHOULD ask other models how a certain person was to work with ......
( Yet, models should know that ANY online contact could / might actually be the "wrong" person to be talking to )
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Liv Sage wrote:
A lot of photographers might not like this response (judging from threads I've seen in the past), but my go-to in the situation is to not answer at all. If a photographer made me VERY uncomfortable, I've usually blocked them altogether. In the rare event that they get back in touch, I simply ignore the message. Just want you to know that I greatly appreciate your input. You just might be the only model actively using the forums. With a membership here where photographers out number the models 3 to 1, I'd think that everyone would be nicer to models. However the forums have become a deserted, haunted shadow of itself from the early days. It is a FACT that you are not obligated to respond!
If someone advertised in Casting Calls on here and they don't get a response, there is no one to blame. If someone sends a message to a model, and gets no response, don't take it so damn personal. Maybe change your presentation? I have a friend on Facebook who is also a model. She markets products but has become frustrated with the nasty attitudes. Something is wrong with the society who uses the marketplace section of this website or Facebook, Craigslist, or Ebay .. it has been getting to the point where using the Internet is a huge challenge. I don't understand why such high expectations, anger and rudeness?
Photographer
GSmithPhoto
Posts: 749
Alameda, California, US
Adventure Photos wrote:
The model has the right to choose. If the model is uncomfortable, has she thought of bringing an escort along on shoots? But your personal comfort and choice do come first. Best of luck I don't really like "escorts" on shoot locations. I'm perfectly happy with voice-activated reflector holders, lens carriers, lookouts and equipment holders. My wife comes along to hold reflectors, help scout new locations, and be helpful - and no one has complained.
YMMV - but I feel that if you're concerned for your safety, pass on the opportunity and find someone else who you are comfortable working with.
Photographer
Lallure Photographic
Posts: 2086
Taylors, South Carolina, US
The answer to that is easy, and it is "no thanks". That's all you need to say.
Yes, ZERO response, is STILL highly unprofessional behavior. You should always have the courtesy to reply, at least "no thanks".
Rick
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