Dea and the Beast wrote:
Me: sees Casting call for          Art Nudes/ Lingerie              *applies*
Them: What are your limits for Erotica?
Me: I am not sure I'll be shooting Erotica with you.
Them: But you have it listed in your genres.
Me: I also have Underwater listed, does not mean I will shoot it with everyone.
Them:
Me: I would not have applied to your casting if it had mentioned Erotica.
Them:   *deleted their casting*

I won't out anyone, but I will be transcribing a lot more from now on, seeing that the mods are too biased to do their jobs correctly.

"Erotica" could mean anything from "you have sexy toes" to "midget porn featuring opossums", it depends entirely on the observer, no?
It's not a definable category and probably not something that needs to be listed. Underwater is underwater, Pregnancy or swimwear are simple. Art, WTF is Art? Fetish could mean "wearing a gorilla mask and covered in chocolate syrup" or it could mean "dressed like a little church girl holding a teddy bear".

It is reasonable to discuss what is or is not specifically wanted from a photoshoot. There's really no other way to see if everybody is on the same page.

Maybe them deleting their post is a compliment, they wanted to work with you and nobody else perhaps.
I dunno, humans are intangible...

Model MoRina wrote:
Photographer says: "what are your limits?"

Model thinks: "there is no real 'concept' he just wants to know how much naughty stuff he can get for his money"

Even if a model wanted to outline her limits, it is impossible to give an answer without a basic goal or concept for the project. I wish photographers would understand what an idiotic question it is without any prior conversation.

If the concept was art nudes, a model might say her limits are no spreads, no pink, no ultra close ups...whatever. But then she shows up at the shoot and there are sex toys as props. When she protests, the photographer can say, "well, you didn't say 'no toys' - since you don't do spreads I thought you could just use your mouth on these."

Does anyone see how ridiculous the "what are your limits" question is? You should have an outline of what you want to shoot, and the model should know ahead of time and be able to say yes or no to any elements. It's all about information and consent, people.

Totally sensible, which is why I mentioned that maybe "Erotic" and "Fetish" should not be categories on MM.
That way, the photographer will have to describe what images they are planning to create instead of just saying "Well, you do Erotic (or Fetish), true?"
Vague, oversimplified terms can be a "loophole" as you mention. I'm pretty specific about my images/ideas, I also try to honor that the model may have good ideas as well and will work to make those a reality. Collaboration is often more fun and more fruitful than going with a single vision.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
"Erotica" could mean anything from "you have sexy toes" to "midget porn featuring opossums", it depends entirely on the observer, no?
It's not a definable category and probably not something that needs to be listed. Underwater is underwater, Pregnancy or swimwear are simple. Art, WTF is Art? Fetish could mean "wearing a gorilla mask and covered in chocolate syrup" or it could mean "dressed like a little church girl holding a teddy bear".

It is reasonable to discuss what is or is not specifically wanted from a photoshoot. There's really no other way to see if everybody is on the same page.

Maybe them deleting their post is a compliment, they wanted to work with you and nobody else perhaps.
I dunno, humans are intangible...

Good.
Now read my OP again. And then read it again.
Especially the first line where I said that I did the applying to a casting call that listed one thing, but when my profile was viewed, which shows Erotica and Fetish, I immediately got groomed into Not the listed genre.

Clear bait and switch BS.

I applied for job A.
I was asked about doing Job X, since I've done job x before.

I did not apply to shoot Job x with Job A advertiser
.

j_francis_imagery wrote:
What are your limits for underwater?

Pony bottle, 10+ feet visibility, 74+ degrees water temp, and my After Care person on standby, since those shoots are extremely exhausting..
Day rates only.
No TF.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

Good.
Now read my OP again. And then read it again.
Especially the first line where I said that I did the applying to a casting call that listed one thing, but when my profile was viewed, which shows Erotica and Fetish, I immediately got groomed into Not the listed genre.

Clear bait and switch BS.

I applied for job A.
I was asked about doing Job X, since I've done job x before.

I did not apply to shoot Job x with Job A advertiser
.

I haven't said otherwise. I read your OP, the photographer tried to flip the shoot to something else - his bad, not yours.
It was wrong, not well done at all. The only thing that would have been worse is to have shown up for the shoot and have the photographer start shifting the goal markers there. He wasted your time, on to the next.

What I was talking about in my post is keeping it real with the model before hand and then if things are going well during the shoot, asking the model if they have any ideas they would like to shoot. If that is wrong and bad procedure, I'd be glad to know why.

Shadow Dancer wrote:

I haven't said otherwise. I read your OP, the photographer tried to flip the shoot to something else - his bad, not yours.
It was wrong, not well done at all. The only thing that would have been worse is to have shown up for the shoot and have the photographer start shifting the goal markers there. He wasted your time, on to the next.

What I was talking about in my post is keeping it real with the model before hand and then if things are going well during the shoot, asking the model if they have any ideas they would like to shoot. If that is wrong and bad procedure, I'd be glad to know why.

Gotcha.
Thanks for clarifying.

But, also as MoRina pointed out, those questions are a bit like.. wait, let's do a restaurant analogy here, we like those, right?
It's like going to a restaurant, the waiter coming along and making hand gestures over a plate as to how hungry you might be, instead of handing you a menu.
When we, as a society have agreed on certain semantics, and certain ways to operate.

Of course nobody is here to fulfil my expectations of a functioning exchange either.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I won't out anyone, but I will be transcribing a lot more from now on, seeing that the mods are too biased to do their jobs correctly.

Granted, the photographer was fishing, and used your response as an excuse expand on that, but if your "beef" is ultimately with the Mods, it might be more on target to explain what you think their duties would have been in the situation you've described.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

Gotcha.
Thanks for clarifying.

But, also as MoRina pointed out, those questions are a bit like.. wait, let's do a restaurant analogy here, we like those, right?
It's like going to a restaurant, the waiter coming along and making hand gestures over a plate as to how hungry you might be, instead of handing you a menu.
When we, as a society have agreed on certain semantics, and certain ways to operate.

Of course nobody is here to fulfil my expectations of a functioning exchange either.

His question might have been different if there was no Erotic category, that's pretty much my point. Especially if he had just posted what he was looking for in the first place, that's where the rubber meets the road.
If he had done that and gotten zero responses then he'd have to deal with that instead.

Nobody is here to fulfill my expectations either. Today a model from south of Seattle sent a friend request.
I accepted it and thanked her for sending it.
My car died and was towed away. Even if it ran, I doubt I would drive down there to work with her and you can be absolutely certain that I'd want to discuss exactly what we were going to try to create well beforehand.
I don't like things going belly-up, I try to avoid that entirely. The last shoot I did have I off-handedly mentioned well in advance that maybe we could place nude images into freezer bins full of meat at the grocery store. To my surprise, the model liked the idea and we did create those images. Pretty fun for being insane!!!!

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Pony bottle, 10+ feet visibility, 74+ degrees water temp, and my After Care person on standby, since those shoots are extremely exhausting..
Day rates only.
No TF.

Modelphilia wrote:

Granted, the photographer was fishing, and used your response as an excuse expand on that, but if your "beef" is ultimately with the Mods, it might be more on target to explain what you think their duties would have been in the situation you've described.

Unrelated. 
Just another of the many straws on a certain camel's back.

Maybe I'll tell you about it someday over a tasty adult beverage.

sospix wrote:
Sooooooooo, do this mean that you wouldn't be interested in shootin' some kinda underwater, underwear, semi nude, stuff with fully nude zombie male models  .  .  .  it's just an idea, we can certainly update it if necessary  .  .  .    I'm still hopin' ta entice you in front of my lens at some point Miss D, I'll keep thinkin' and get back to ya  .  .  .

SOS

Hmu when your schedule permits.

Water is getting warmer...

Adventure Photos wrote:
Good communication helps right from the start.  Clarify definitions with each model who shows an interest.   Sad to find ones who claim to shoot 'erotica' or other listed themes, then want to refine it or not do it.
    Also puzzling to see those who right off list 'NO' for nude pics, yet when you check their credits, or even some portfolios, they have several posted up.  All of models need to update their profiles so not to mislead a photographer.  That means a 'yes' or don't allow your secret life' doing nudes with specific photographers to post them up at MM on their credit link or to your profile.   Locations are about the only thing I see updated often. Many add in more cities they consider 'home' base, instead of deleting one and replacing with another.  Good to know that some do spend time in multiple locations so you don't have to wait and schedule a special date just for them.

You will find a number of threads on “nudes: no / nudes on port”. They can be long, and sometimes r get rather distracted.

Allow me to summarise: “it means they will shoot nudes, but selectively; only some photographers will be accepted”. The shorter version, less politely “it means they shoot nudes, but not with you”.

Something to consider - if a model says “nudes: yes” she can get attention from photographers she would rather not. If she says “nudes: no”, and is approached by a photographer whose work she likes, she can discuss the option.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
"Erotica" could mean anything from "you have sexy toes" to "midget porn featuring opossums", it depends entirely on the observer, no?
It's not a definable category and probably not something that needs to be listed. Underwater is underwater, Pregnancy or swimwear are simple. Art, WTF is Art? Fetish could mean "wearing a gorilla mask and covered in chocolate syrup" or it could mean "dressed like a little church girl holding a teddy bear".

It is reasonable to discuss what is or is not specifically wanted from a photoshoot. There's really no other way to see if everybody is on the same page.

The "Erotica" and "Fetish" categories are still useful as starting points for those discussions. If a model has "Fetish" listed, I'll feel free to ask about doing a bondage shoot with her, but not if she doesn't have "Fetish" listed. If "Fetish" is eliminated as a category, then I would be invited and required to be rude and ask all the models who'd I be interested in working with, based on their portfolios - including those who don't want to do any sort of fetish shoot.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Hmu when your schedule permits.

Water is getting warmer...

I like water!  Especially standin' in it whilst shootin' with a wonderfully talented model  .  .  . 

SOS

Adventure Photos wrote:
Good communication helps right from the start.  Clarify definitions with each model who shows an interest.   Sad to find ones who claim to shoot 'erotica' or other listed themes, then want to refine it or not do it.

Oh, so you think if a model checks the erotica box that she automatically has to agree with anything that any photographer terms as erotica? Let me tell you from many years of modeling experience... it can mean simply full nudes or tasteful bodyscapes to some photographers while to others it means full-on porn, or that they are free to ask the model all sorts of inappropriate questions during the shoot, like whether or not we want them to jerk off in front of us. Yes, that really happens. Or it makes them think they can touch us inappropriately.
Just because we check a box labeled fetish or erotica doesn't mean we agree to your version of it. I can't believe this needs explaining. You still need to confirm acceptance and consent for what you want to shoot... before the shoot is even scheduled.

Sablesword wrote:
The "Erotica" and "Fetish" categories are still useful as starting points for those discussions. If a model has "Fetish" listed, I'll feel free to ask about doing a bondage shoot with her, but not if she doesn't have "Fetish" listed. If "Fetish" is eliminated as a category, then I would be invited and required to be rude and ask all the models who'd I be interested in working with, based on their portfolios - including those who don't want to do any sort of fetish shoot.

Yes, this is how many fetish photographers got booted off this site... they emailed models who had not checked those categories and got reported to the mods. Some people are offended just by a reasonable question these days.

Model MoRina wrote:

Oh, so you think if a model checks the erotica box that she automatically has to agree with anything that any photographer terms as erotica? Let me tell you from many years of modeling experience... it can mean simply full nudes or tasteful bodyscapes to some photographers while to others it means full-on porn, or that they are free to ask the model all sorts of inappropriate questions during the shoot, like whether or not we want them to jerk off in front of us. Yes, that really happens. Or it makes them think they can touch us inappropriately.
Just because we check a box labeled fetish or erotica doesn't mean we agree to your version of it. I can't believe this needs explaining. You still need to confirm acceptance and consent for what you want to shoot... before the shoot is even scheduled.

Agree,, and said that knowing what is planned, is found out by good communication.  Sorry you took one part of my comment and chose to attack me with 'Oh, so you think.."  and "Let me tell you"  statements that are not what I feel or what I said.  And I am sad you  tossed in the 'porn' word, as if I was implying that is OK.  I bow to your much more vast experience .
But don't imply my total lack of,,,whatever you wanted, just to attack me.    And no, I'm not going to keep a running defense with any response to you here.  Sorry you chose me to go after .  Byeee

sospix wrote:

I like water!  Especially standin' in it whilst shootin' with a wonderfully talented model  .  .  . 

SOS

I have a skiff we can load up and fuck off to the islands to if yer want

Adventure Photos wrote:

Agree,, and said that knowing what is planned, is found out by good communication.  Sorry you took one part of my comment and chose to attack me with 'Oh, so you think.."  and "Let me tell you"  statements that are not what I feel or what I said.  And I am sad you  tossed in the 'porn' word, as if I was implying that is OK.  I bow to your much more vast experience .
But don't imply my total lack of,,,whatever you wanted, just to attack me.    And no, I'm not going to keep a running defense with any response to you here.  Sorry you chose me to go after .  Byeee

I applied to a casting that had NO mention of anything erotic.

I got a response from the creator of said casting, wanting to know my "limits for erotic".

After I told him I would not shoot erotica with him and would not have applied to the job if the casting had mentioned erotica, regardless of what that means to me or that person.

You took a bait and switch/ grooming situation and wanted to turn it into a communications issue.


That's what *I* am reading here.

goofus  wrote:
'Erotic' means nuthin - there is no definition...hell.. 'nude' doesn't mean anything either (sometimes).

at least they asked upfront (instead of on location)

see no problem here

If you're honestly arguing semantics here, you've entirely missed the point.

But I think you're just being obtuse for the hell of it.

Weldphoto wrote:
You can't get an answer unless you ask a question. I can't see any reason to be offended by being asked for clarification regarding any of the genre listed on MM. Swimsuit;  that can mean anything from skirted bottoms with  baggy tops to dental floss with postage stamp size cloth. So ask and if asked reply.  No offense either way. We need to say what me mean and mean what we say and stop assuming motives.

What seems like a truly common-sense answer that seems to be out of place on the forum...

Weldphoto wrote:
You can't get an answer unless you ask a question. I can't see any reason to be offended by being asked for clarification regarding any of the genre listed on MM. Swimsuit;  that can mean anything from skirted bottoms with  baggy tops to dental floss with postage stamp size cloth. So ask and if asked reply.  No offense either way. We need to say what me mean and mean what we say and stop assuming motives.

Did you actually read the OP ?

It's not a matter of asking about limits of any genre listed, it's a matter of Bait and Switch concerning a Casting Notice.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
Did you actually read the OP ?

It's not a matter of asking about limits of any genre listed, it's a matter of Bait and Switch concerning a Casting Notice.

That is a rather confrontational way to begin, isn't it?  Of course I read the opening and the subsequent remarks. I may have failed to see how this is a bait and switch issue. It seems more to be a photographer failing to be clear in his casting and Bea responding to an assumption he made. The thread continued to address the issue of the importance of clarity in exchanges between model and photographer.

Weldphoto wrote:
That is a rather confrontational way to begin, isn't it?  Of course I read the opening and the subsequent remarks. I may have failed to see how this is a bait and switch issue. It seems more to be a photographer failing to be clear in his casting and Bea responding to an assumption he made. The thread continued to address the issue of the importance of clarity in exchanges between model and photographer.

I think the OP summed it up really well on how this is a bait and switch issue.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I applied for job A.
I was asked about doing Job X, since I've done job x before.
I did not apply to shoot Job x with Job A advertiser
.

Weldphoto wrote:

That is a rather confrontational way to begin, isn't it?  Of course I read the opening and the subsequent remarks. I may have failed to see how this is a bait and switch issue. It seems more to be a photographer failing to be clear in his casting and Bea responding to an assumption he made. The thread continued to address the issue of the importance of clarity in exchanges between model and photographer.

You're gonna ignore the dirty delete he did after I declined to book camel toe with him?

That all of a sudden he was "gonna get back to me, a bunch of stuff came up"?

Please..

Weldphoto wrote:
You can't get an answer unless you ask a question. I can't see any reason to be offended by being asked for clarification regarding any of the genre listed on MM. Swimsuit;  that can mean anything from skirted bottoms with  baggy tops to dental floss with postage stamp size cloth. So ask and if asked reply.  No offense either way. We need to say what me mean and mean what we say and stop assuming motives.

"What are you limits?"
Is the WRONG & completely unnecessary question to be asking in the first place.

A photographer has a project, they put together 3-12 samples of the SAME  STYLE of images & cast based on that.
No need at all to ask about limits because the images are represented in the portfolio.

The 2nd dumbest question to be asking is "Do you want to book a shoot with me?"
Gee I dunno... I have NO INFO to go on...
Is she shoot local or do I have to travel, are travel expenses paid for?
How many hours?
What is the concept wardrobe?
Pay rate?

THESE all need to be outlined BEFORE we start asking about if we want to shoot or not.

Model MoRina wrote:
Oh, so you think if a model checks the erotica box that she automatically has to agree with anything that any photographer terms as erotica? Let me tell you from many years of modeling experience... it can mean simply full nudes or tasteful bodyscapes to some photographers while to others it means full-on porn, or that they are free to ask the model all sorts of inappropriate questions during the shoot, like whether or not we want them to jerk off in front of us. Yes, that really happens. Or it makes them think they can touch us inappropriately.
Just because we check a box labeled fetish or erotica doesn't mean we agree to your version of it. I can't believe this needs explaining. You still need to confirm acceptance and consent for what you want to shoot... before the shoot is even scheduled.

This is why I never get mad at the question. I had a photographer in Paris request an erotic shoot once, and when I told him I don't shoot explicit, he said he just meant a black lingerie set with thigh high hosiery. I also tend to consider lingerie erotic, but I'm okay with it. But I've found over the years that this is a pretty European view when it comes to photography.

And for some photographers, they want POV porn.

I have a list on my website that I send photographers who ask about limits now. Made shoot discussions quite a bit easier.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Pony bottle, 10+ feet visibility, 74+ degrees water temp, and my After Care person on standby, since those shoots are extremely exhausting..
Day rates only.
No TF.

If you find yourself in Australia and have brought your pony bottle and after care person, I can offer you water temperature of 80F to 93F and excellent water clarity of at least 30 feet.