Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages?

Wow! This is something new!

Prez Photo wrote:
this is just incredibly discouraging and frankly makes me want to quit shooting if I have to deal with this level of ignorance.

I feel your pain.

Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages?

It seems to me that there is this old stereotype of a guy asking a girl out and she replied, "Oh, I am sorry.  I am washing my hair that night.  Maybe some other time."  The urban dictionary politely explains this as, "A typical excuse given when someone doesn’t want to attend a function but has no legitimate reason not to."  It also explains it as, "A polite alternative to telling someone to 'fuck off' when asked on a date."  Of course, this has never happened to me. 

I think we have moved forward significantly since those days, now that we can count on the adage that "no reply is a reply," even if it is still a "polite alternative to telling someone to 'fuck off'"

When I started ballroom dancing, we were told that it is social faux pas to refuse a dance when you are asked.  What the brain dead guys failed to realize was that this gorgeous and talented dancer was dancing with them out of politeness and it did not give him permission to go sit with her and give dirty looks to the other guys, the ones who were also gorgeous and talented dancers, when they came by and asked her to dance.  More than once I have walked out onto the dance floor after a song has ended and politely nodded to the gentleman as I asked the lady to dance whilst I TOOK her hand from the obnoxious creatine that had tied up a gorgeous and talented dancer for multiple songs when his dancing skills were limited to stomp, stomp, stomp and the only frame* he had contained a picture of his wife or mom back home.  I long ago learned that the truth of the matter is there is an asterisk after the protocol expressing it is social faux pas to refuse when someone asks you to dance, and I can assure you that good dancers know when to employ the asterisk.  They have no obligation to dance with someone who sucks and certainly not someone who is likely to cause an injury. 

More on that note: This lecherous late, middle aged fart didn't know it but I saved the guys life by taking the gorgeous 17 year old competitive dancer's hand out of his.  Her father was watching him, I was watching her father watch him and her father was headed for the floor as the next song was coming up.  This was a guy you didn't want to mess with.  The father thanked me later for helping him avoid prison time.  . He was joking of course, but the little man dancing with his daughter would still have needed to change his pants.

Another perspective comes from a friend of mine who recently decided to retire early.  She asked a similar question as you when she said, "When are men going to have the common decency and professional courtesy to stop thinking that they can flirt with me, touch me and ask me out at work." 

I think you will find that the reasons that women act the way they do is directly attributable to the fact that men act the way they do.  Perhaps some understanding is in order and understanding would serve you better than the chagrin?

* frame is a dancing term.

Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages? It doesn't take that long to answer simply that you are not interested in an offer. Where did manners and culture go? Is this really how this industry functions? Maybe I'm old school, but this is just incredibly discouraging and frankly makes me want to quit shooting if I have to deal with this level of ignorance. Thoughts?

I have been wondering if the people that complain about not getting responses from every model they cold solicit also respond to all the spam mails that show up in their mailboxes on a daily basis? Receiving no reply from an unsolicited offer indicates that the recipient is not interested in your offer, and that is all it means. It does not mean they are devoid of common decency, or are unprofessional. It casts no light upon their manners or cultural identity. What rants like this do show is the privilege and arrogance of individuals who think others owe them their time responding to something they have no interest in.

You sent a message, you didn't get an answer, move on.

Ivan123 wrote:
I am a photographer, not a model, so don't know from first-hand experience but some models have told me that their in-boxes are flooded, mostly with spam and other uselessness so it becomes a chore to respond.  The serious offers get buried in the noise.

Yep. I was photographing a model in her home once and we sat down at the table where her laptop was logged into her MM account. I don't remember the exact amount of messages she had sitting there unread, but it might as well have been a million.

Dea and the Beast wrote:



For the umpteenth time, dudes:


1 either our inboxes are a shit show and we cannot possibly politely turn down every offer, all the while making sure we don't damage those fragile egos.
2 or we are tired of y'alls psychotic retaliation to rejection so we just don't even open the door to that
3 or we simply don't feel like it because there are legit 49272 other things we'd rather be doing than to waste time saying No thanks. (YES, it's a waste of time for most of us for the aforementioned reasons).

Now grow a fucking pair. Jesus on a pogo stick.

Ermagherd the moddel left MY message on ReAd ehrmegehrd why are they doing that to meeee

Who hurt you?

EdBPhotography wrote:
Who hurt you?

Cute. 

Obtuse, but cute.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

Cute. 

Obtuse, but cute.

No, I'm serious...who hurt you?  I've read many of your comments over the years and it seems, from my perspective, you've grown increasingly angry and bitter towards this community.  That response to the OP was demeaning and snarky, which made it appear as if you're very frustrated, impatient, and pretty much fed up with anyone who doesn't reach your high level of expectation or experience.

I get it, to a certain degree.  Anyone who's been here a while has seen these threads over and over again.  Why give it any more of your energy though, instead of just rolling your eyes and scrolling onto the next topic?  Also, why stay in this business if it's filled with so many people you seem to detest?

EdBPhotography wrote:

No, I'm serious...who hurt you?  I've read many of your comments over the years and it seems, from my perspective, you've grown increasingly angry and bitter towards this community.  That response to the OP was demeaning and snarky, which made it appear as if you're very frustrated, impatient, and pretty much fed up with anyone who doesn't reach your high level of expectation or experience.

I get it, to a certain degree.  Anyone who's been here a while has seen these threads over and over again.  Why give it any more of your energy though, instead of just rolling your eyes and scrolling onto the next topic?  Also, why stay in this business if it's filled with so many people you seem to detest?

Since you seem sincere in your questions, I will take the time to PM you when i have a free minute to compose a reply that will be fruitful.
For the fora sake, I do "give it more energy" to help a future generation of emerging/ aspiring/ etc models and "models" a bite of reality,  unlike what everyone else is trying to feed the youth.


I cannot count the times I have been assaulted, in any way imaginable, and even after careful screening, only shooting with recommendations, serious firms and companies,  well established members of this and other networking sites.


In short,  it doesn't matter what you do, someone will take advantage and someone will take offense.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I cannot count the times I have been assaulted, in any way imaginable, and even after careful screening, only shooting with recommendations, serious firms and companies,  well established members of this and other networking sites.

That there, that's a damned shame.
And incredibly infuriating.

EdBPhotography wrote:

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Cute. 



I get it, to a certain degree.  Anyone who's been here a while has seen these threads over and over again.  Why give it any more of your energy though, instead of just rolling your eyes and scrolling onto the next topic?  Also, why stay in this business if it's filled with so many people you seem to detest?

That is well put........ Also very nice work you have (Don't mind me I'm new here)

EdBPhotography wrote:
Who hurt you?

Wow. Responses like this are more than enough to answer the OP's original question.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I cannot count the times I have been assaulted, in any way imaginable, and even after careful screening, only shooting with recommendations, serious firms and companies,  well established members of this and other networking sites.

Aisbarika wrote:
That there, that's a damned shame.
And incredibly infuriating.

+1     Incredibly infuriating

EdBPhotography wrote:
Who hurt you?

Dan Howell wrote:
Wow. Responses like this are more than enough to answer the OP's original question.

+1

Dan Howell wrote:
Wow. Responses like this are more than enough to answer the OP's original question.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying my questioning a model's harsh response (quote: "Grow a fucking pair", followed by condescending ridicule) to a rather benign question, which was posed by a photographer who has only posted in the forums 6 times since 2015, is the cause for the model's attitude...even though I haven't been on this site much over the past 3 to 4 years?  Does that about sum it up?

Ask yourself, are you really looking at this objectively?  Did you even read my follow up to her response?

The forums are the main reason I stopped visiting this site.  Over recent years, whenever I took an occasional peek at the very limited traffic that has gone on here, I would see the same small group of people posting responses to topics that moved at a snail's pace.  Dea happened to be one of those people.  And over time, I noticed her comments have become increasingly harsh towards others.  If you think I'm partially responsible for that, you might want to explore a little deeper.

By the way; Dea has shown she's very intelligent and articulate.   She's perfectly capable of holding her own in a debate, so I don't think she's needs anyone to come to her defense.  She already said she would talk to me directly about it in a private message, and also expressed some of her frustrations and traumas.  I'm pretty sure my comment wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back.

Dea and the Beast wrote:



For the umpteenth time, dudes:


1 either our inboxes are a shit show and we cannot possibly politely turn down every offer, all the while making sure we don't damage those fragile egos.
2 or we are tired of y'alls psychotic retaliation to rejection so we just don't even open the door to that
3 or we simply don't feel like it because there are legit 49272 other things we'd rather be doing than to waste time saying No thanks. (YES, it's a waste of time for most of us for the aforementioned reasons).

Now grow a fucking pair. Jesus on a pogo stick.

1000%

OP is entitled.  Knuckledraggers defending OP is not a model.  And, those same dum dums don't know what's going on.

I remember a couple years back, I was trying to setup a beach shoot with a model.  In the end she thanks me, "Thank you for not asking me to get naked."  I asked, "WUT?". "Almost every photographer keeps trying to get me to do a nude shoot", she replies.  And, she has No for nudes in her portfolio.

HiResPhotographs wrote:
1000%

OP is entitled.  Knuckledraggers defending OP is not a model.  And, those same dum dums don't know what's going on.

I remember a couple years back, I was trying to setup a beach shoot with a model.  In the end she thanks me, "Thank you for not asking me to get naked."  I asked, "WUT?". "Almost every photographer keeps trying to get me to do a nude shoot", she replies.  And, she has No for nudes in her portfolio.

(sigh)

Apparently you missed the point of my comments.  I'm not defending the OP's original post in any way.  My comments are related to the way someone responded to the OP, which I felt was unnecessary and unwarranted. 

Maybe MM's forum policies have changed since I've been gone, but personal attacks ("Knuckledraggers", "Dum dums (sic)", for example) and harsh responses were not allowed here several years ago.  They're fruitless, and, if left unchecked, can lead to a hostile environment that pushes members away from this site. 

Now, if I had a fragile ego I might take your comments and respond in an equally condescending and obnoxious manner, but what would that accomplish; other than possibly making potential models reluctant to work with me because I can't conduct myself like an adult in a public forum.  It could also lead to you, me, and others posting futile back-and-forth comments filled with insults and attempts at one-upmanship.

Unfortunately, this has become the nature of the beast.  Social media and the internet have taught us (Generally speaking) to make broad assumptions about someone's character and intelligence, based solely off a simple comment.  Human beings are far more complex and multifaceted than that, but we reduce them to basal creatures with ulterior motives because we THINK we're SO MUCH more aware of the world and so much better than "Them." 

News flash:  You're not, despite the anecdotal evidence you provided.

EdBPhotography wrote:
So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying my questioning a model's harsh response (quote: "Grow a fucking pair", followed by condescending ridicule) to a rather benign question, which was posed by a photographer who has only posted in the forums 6 times since 2015, is the cause for the model's attitude...even though I haven't been on this site much over the past 3 to 4 years?  Does that about sum it up?

Ask yourself, are you really looking at this objectively?  Did you even read my follow up to her response?

Your statement was insulting and minimizing to her. Your statement implies that she could not hold those opinions on her own, that her opinions could only be held by someone who had been emotionally damaged and not someone who had come to those opinions through experience.

Do you really want to stand behind that? I guess you thought it was funny.

EdBPhotography wrote:
Maybe MM's forum policies have changed since I've been gone, but personal attacks ("Knuckledraggers", "Dum dums (sic)", for example) and harsh responses were not allowed here several years ago.  They're fruitless, and, if left unchecked, can lead to a hostile environment that pushes members away from this site.

You might want to look up the distinction between personal attacks and general attacks.

Dan Howell wrote:
Your statement was insulting and minimizing to her.
Your statement implies that she could not hold those opinions on her own, that her opinions could only be held by someone who had been emotionally damaged and not someone who had come to those opinions through experience.

Do you really want to stand behind that? I guess you thought it was funny.

Well, she didn't think he was being condescending.
She answered his question.
And it appears that, YES, she did come to that perspective through experience.
So...yup.

Dan Howell wrote:
Your statement was insulting and minimizing to her. Your statement implies that she could not hold those opinions on her own, that her opinions could only be held by someone who had been emotionally damaged and not someone who had come to those opinions through experience.

Do you really want to stand behind that? I guess you thought it was funny.

In my experience, emotional and physical traumas can affect our perception of the world around us and manifest itself outwardly in the way we respond to others.  It's like the old saying, "Hurt people hurt people."

So while my initial question was curt, the intention behind it was genuine.  I didn't expect her to answer as openly as she did, but I appreciate her willingness to share some of her traumatic experiences and am saddened that some disrespectful photographers have caused her pain.

I simply posed a question, but apparently you know how to read both of our minds and tell us what we think, feel, and intend.  I'd suggest sticking to photography; you do better in that realm.

Dan Howell wrote:
You might want to look up the distinction between personal attacks and general attacks.

Maybe your mind reading abilities also helped you decipher what this comment implied.  Personally, I had a little trouble understanding his comments, because he kept mixing plural nouns with singular verbs.

So his statement, "KNUCKLEDRAGGERS (plural) defending OP IS (singular) not a model.  And, those same DUM DUMS (Plural, but also misspelled...unless, of course, he's referring to those small lollipops in the dentist's office.  But I digress.) DON'T KNOW (plural) what's going on.", can be interpreted as a personal attack; especially considering I'm the only one who addressed her comment.

You know what everyone thinks though, so I'll trust you and not take it personally.

EdBPhotography wrote:
Maybe MM's forum policies have changed since I've been gone, but personal attacks ("Knuckledraggers", "Dum dums (sic)", for example) and harsh responses were not allowed here several years ago.  They're fruitless, and, if left unchecked, can lead to a hostile environment that pushes members away from this site.

Ohh....m.....geee.  The hilarity of it is, I didn't even direct it at anyone specific.  The fact you rose to accept that honor, that's on you.

Now, if I had a fragile ego

Really?  Your triggered and long-winded holier than thou responses confirms it.

HiResPhotographs wrote:
Ohh....m.....geee.  blah, blah, blah...

(Heavier sigh)

Thanks for proving my point about online debates.

Congratulations, you won the forums today.  Please DM me your home address so I can mail you your cookie.  I think if you reach out to the mods, they might also give you a badge that you can add to your profile to show you're one of MM's most skilled debaters.

As for me, I'm going to go back to focusing my energy on my photography, instead of wasting it in these forums.   

Keep on rockin' on, dude.  You're so cool.

EdBPhotography wrote:
As for me, I'm going to go back to focusing my energy on my photography, instead of wasting it in these forums.

Okie dokie.  Should you decide to pay a visit in the future, don't forget to put on your big boy pants.

And, don't be such a hypocrite.  From your portfolio:

RETOUCHERS
Please stop.  You come across like that desperate guy sitting at the bar at 1:30am begging anyone to just talk to him...
.
...Stop begging for handouts like some homeless guy at a freeway off ramp, pick up a camera, and learn how to shoot your own content.

dictionary/thesaurus wrote:
benign
adjective
1 he adopted a benign grandfatherly role: kindly, kind, warmhearted, good-natured, friendly, warm, affectionate, agreeable, amiable, good-humored, genial, congenial, cordial, approachable, tender, tenderhearted, softhearted, gentle, sympathetic, compassionate, caring, considerate, thoughtful, helpful, well disposed, obliging, accommodating, generous, big-hearted, unselfish, benevolent, gracious, liberal, indulgent; rare benignant. ANTONYMS unfriendly, hostile

OP's post was not benign.  EdB's posts were not benign either.

EdBPhotography wrote:
In my experience, emotional and physical traumas can affect our perception of the world around us and manifest itself outwardly in the way we respond to others.  It's like the old saying, "Hurt people hurt people."

So while my initial question was curt, the intention behind it was genuine.  I didn't expect her to answer as openly as she did, but I appreciate her willingness to share some of her traumatic experiences and am saddened that some disrespectful photographers have caused her pain.

I simply posed a question, but apparently you know how to read both of our minds and tell us what we think, feel, and intend.  I'd suggest sticking to photography; you do better in that realm.

Haha stopped reading after the first sentence. My perception (of assault) is not unreliable because *I'm* damaged, inside or outside. My "perception" of being assualted happens  because people (in these cases male people, photographers, their assistants etc), commit fucking assault, and you ARE being obtuse, and we are done here. Who don't you go back to whatever it is you "create" (other than high blood pressure in others, but then again I'm no medical professional, so my perception of that might be off, who knows, i dont live in this body or this reality ) , and I'll do the same.

(BTW that was totally condescending, so nobody has to wonder about my tone there).