Model
Ararity
Posts: 4358
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
How come in modeling (esp high fashion), actual age is more important than age range you LOOK, as opposed to acting? Is it more about body changes as a woman's body ages (hips spreading, body fat composition, etc)? I ask because I most often get mistaken for early 20s but am just over 30. Just trying to understand the logic is all.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
I'd hazard a guess that it's because perception of age is purely subjective, while actual chronological age is not. Perception of age can be a product of pure delusion and can also be altered by makeup or Photoshop and as a photographer I like to know what the model really looks like so I'll know how much makeup and/or postprocessing will be required. I, for one, would be plenty cheesed-off to schedule a model who claims to be a pristine 20 but turns out to be 40 with the benefit of massive editing. .
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13574
Washington, Utah, US
I second what Orca Bay Images said. Chronological age is objective where appearance (age or otherwise) is very subjective. People are free to look at your portfolio and subjectively decide if you are the appropriate model for their shoot. To give a MM analogy, look at how people here categorize their experience level. We see some models with less than 20 hours of modeling experience, subjectively saying they are "very experienced", same with photographers. Whether or not a model thinks she looks 10 years younger than she is really doesn't matter, it's what the person hiring the model thinks that matters.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
That must be it.
Going back to at least the 1960s, there have been frequent studies that found that the average top agency model’s income consistently peaks at age 26.
It isn’t the agency that determines when a model’s career peaks. It’s the clients.
That’s why the REAL competition between agencies isn’t based on their current roster of models. It’s based on who’s doing the best job of recruiting of promising models between ages 14-17.
The younger a model is when they sign and train her, the more years the agency will have the model while her career is on the upswing.
Five or six years ago, a model friend moved to LA and made the rounds of the top 10 agencies there at age 24. She had the height (6’ 1”), the body type and the look that agencies are seeking.
The response that she got was almost always some variation of “Where you 10 years ago?”
It’s not how you look now. It’s how they expect that you’ll look 10 years from now (the first 6 months to a year of which will be spent getting you ready for your first go-see and the next year or two will be spent trying to build a body of work and a reputation that will begin to create demand for you.
Most top agency models don’t begin to make money (for themselves or the agency) before their fourth year after signing.
Btw, I see that you’re 5’ 8”. For years, the top agencies’ requirement (with very rare exceptions) was 5’ 9” and up. Recently, the CEO of Elite Model Management said that Elite is now focusing on models who are 5’ 10” and up.
It isn’t personal. It’s just business.
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
I can't speak to fashion, but I've never been to a go-see or audition where they didn't want an unretouched image, for the same reason. Frequently they just slap you up against a wall and take a snapshot if you don't have one
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Ive told this story and i will tell it again
Several Years ago i befriended a 26 year old Asian Fashion Model who got signed by a Top Local Agency
They Marketed her as being 19 and told her to act that age
Which proved to be an interesting experience for her - in part because at that point she had achieved a Masters Degree in Psych
Oh and She continued on with the Modelliing . moved to NYC
and abandoned her goal of becoming a Psychologist
Photographer
Al_Vee Photography
Posts: 113
South Farmingdale, New York, US
I knew a model who did get signed in her late 20s. They had her put that she was 21 on her comp card, and marketed her as such. She went on to do quite a bit.
Photographer
The Other Place
Posts: 784
Los Angeles, California, US
Ararity wrote:
How come in modeling (esp high fashion), actual age is more important than age range you LOOK, as opposed to acting? In regards to casting actors for narrative film/tv and for commercials, the variety of character ages/types needed is dictated by a story/script. So, there are plenty of opportunities for different types in that realm.
In contrast, there are general tendencies in fashion. A lot of clothing/fashion designers tend to make samples for taller slender models, largely due to the aesthetics of the way garments hang on such body types. Also, there is a general proportional aesthetic of such models that is more sought after, and there is also a greater versatility in possible proportions with a tall, slender model. I don't think age matters (it doesn't to me), as long as one has an attractive look and can fit the fashion model type and (most importantly) has modeling "chops."
Of course, there are plenty of exceptions to all of these general tendencies.
Keep up the good work!
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
The Other Place wrote:
In regards to casting actors for narrative film/tv and for commercials, the variety of character ages/types needed is dictated by a story/script. So, there are plenty of opportunities for different types in that realm.
In contrast, there are general tendencies in fashion. A lot of clothing/fashion designers tend to make samples for taller slender models, largely due to the aesthetics of the way garments hang on such body types. Also, there is a general proportional aesthetic of such models that is more sought after, and there is also a greater versatility in possible proportions with a tall, slender model. I don't think age matters (it doesn't to me), as long as one has an attractive look and can fit the fashion model type and (most importantly) has modeling "chops."
Of course, there are plenty of exceptions to all of these general tendencies.
Keep up the good work! All thiose 20 something year olds playinig highshcool kids in tv and movies
Seems to work
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Camerosity wrote:
That must be it.
Going back to at least the 1960s, there have been frequent studies that found that the average top agency model’s income consistently peaks at age 26.
It isn’t the agency that determines when a model’s career peaks. It’s the clients.
That’s why the REAL competition between agencies isn’t based on their current roster of models. It’s based on who’s doing the best job of recruiting of promising models between ages 14-17.
The younger a model is when they sign and train her, the more years the agency will have the model while her career is on the upswing.
Five or six years ago, a model friend moved to LA and made the rounds of the top 10 agencies there at age 24. She had the height (6’ 1”), the body type and the look that agencies are seeking.
The response that she got was almost always some variation of “Where you 10 years ago?”
It’s not how you look now. It’s how they expect that you’ll look 10 years from now (the first 6 months to a year of which will be spent getting you ready for your first go-see and the next year or two will be spent trying to build a body of work and a reputation that will begin to create demand for you.
Most top agency models don’t begin to make money (for themselves or the agency) before their fourth year after signing.
Btw, I see that you’re 5’ 8”. For years, the top agencies’ requirement (with very rare exceptions) was 5’ 9” and up. Recently, the CEO of Elite Model Management said that Elite is now focusing on models who are 5’ 10” and up.
It isn’t personal. It’s just business. WTF! "Most top agency models don’t begin to make money (for themselves or the agency) before their fourth year after signing." The average agency signed model lasts a year if she/he is lucky. No top agency is going to carry a model who isn't booking paid work more then a few months. Certainly not years. Generally once you're signed you go on their development board and test. If you're lucky within a few weeks you are going to go sees. A few weeks later if you have a good look you do editorials , commercial or if you're really lucky well paid shoots for clients. The testing period gives your agent a great idea of what you can do and feedback from photographers about you.
Photographer
The Other Place
Posts: 784
Los Angeles, California, US
Garry k wrote:
All thiose 20 something year olds playinig highshcool kids in tv and movies
Seems to work Who plays the the parents, teachers and kindly old aunts of the high school kids?
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
The Other Place wrote:
Who plays the the parents, teachers and kindly old aunts of the high school kids? Maybe Actors who are 10 to 15 yrs older ?
Photographer
The Other Place
Posts: 784
Los Angeles, California, US
The Other Place wrote:
Who plays the the parents, teachers and kindly old aunts of the high school kids? Garry k wrote:
Maybe Actors who are 10 to 15 yrs older ? Sounds like interesting shows.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
The Other Place wrote:
Sounds like interesting shows. I wouldnt watch anything simply based on that
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25257
New York, New York, US
Ararity wrote:
How come in modeling (esp high fashion), actual age is more important than age range you LOOK, as opposed to acting? Is it more about body changes as a woman's body ages (hips spreading, body fat composition, etc)? I ask because I most often get mistaken for early 20s but am just over 30. Just trying to understand the logic is all. From my experience, age-range is still important in the fashion industry, as the appearance and not the actual age is being looked at.
So, the opposite of what you are experiencing.
But I think there is a distinction that has to be made!
The real age of the model at the point of being signed by an agency is extremely important! Because the agency likes to develop young talent, which means a lot of investment in the beginning, but big pay off when the "shelf life" of the model is extended by 10 years once the model can easily "sold" for different requirements of the bookers.
E.g., if you are 15, but your age range is 14-21 you can be send to castings for teenage clothing and catalog work. for 14 to 16 years old girls.
With makeup and hair, you might get that model to look like 21 and can be depicted as a happy party girl, promoting either young women's clothes, lifestyle products and beauty products.
That's why age-range is very important and often also written on the comp cards of agency models.
Yet again, just as a reminder... the actual age is important to get signed as a new face.
If you are actually 21, but you look like 16/17, bookers are afraid that you may "deteriorate" at an accelerated rate and look like Benjamina Button, when you hit 25...
Hope that makes sense! 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25257
New York, New York, US
Al_Vee Photography wrote:
I knew a model who did get signed in her late 20s. They had her put that she was 21 on her comp card, and marketed her as such. She went on to do quite a bit. Models like her are an exception.
However, remember that there are also adult boards on many agencies.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Exactly!
Roughly half of the models signed by a top agency will wash out during their preparation/“training” period or during the first year to 18 months.
For those who don’t, the money the agency invested in them upfront for trainers, promotion, etc., will be deducted from their earnings over a period of time.
Rarely has the agency made back those expenses (and started making real money) through commissions on the model before the fourth year. There are a few exceptions.
Even later, the model continues to reimburse the agency’s expenses. If a model’s handler takes her to lunch, the model’s lunch is likely to be deducted from her commission check.
For those who wash out, the agency will usually forgive those expenses and write them off.
With the top agencies, their money is made over the long term, not the short term. That’s one of the main reasons why the competition to find and sign the best prospects at an early age is so intense.
Ten to twelve years of solid income from a model can wipe out a lot of expenses for those models who didn’t make it.
Having an occasional model like Gisele Bündchen, who keep bringing in the big bucks, well into their 30s, doesn’t exactly hurt an agency’s bottom line, either.
If you want to know where another goldmine is, if you refer a model (through proper channels) to an agency, and she gets signed, some agencies will send you a check for 10% of the model’s earnings as long as she’s signed and modeling.
Not bad for a phone call or an introductory meeting…
I’d like to be the guy (actually, I believe it was a couple) who referred Karlie Kloss (who now has a net worth of about $30 million at age 26 and married the brother of President Trump's son-in-law last year) to Elite Model Management’s Chicago office when she was playing basketball at Webster Groves High School (about 13 miles from me) and taking ballet lessons.
And a few more like her.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25257
New York, New York, US
Camerosity wrote:
Exactly!
Roughly half of the models signed by a top agency will wash out during their preparation/“training” period or during the first year to 18 months.
For those who don’t, the money the agency invested in them upfront for trainers, promotion, etc., will be deducted from their earnings over a period of time.
Rarely has the agency made back those expenses (and started making real money) through commissions on the model before the fourth year. There are a few exceptions.
Even later, the model continues to reimburse the agency’s expenses. If a model’s handler takes her to lunch, the model’s lunch is likely to be deducted from her commission check.
For those who wash out, the agency will usually forgive those expenses and write them off. I have to say, my personal experience with agency models and agencies... I have not seen one of those top and 2nd tier agencies carrying a not-income generating model beyond one or two years.
Four years without making money before they dump her... that sounds weird to me. Models that won't get booked by an agency, even with a rare non-exclusive contract, won't stay with an agency that won't get her booked, generating a living income for her either.
I like you, but your info is based on information that doesn't match my own experience in my market at least.
I admit that I have no idea about your regional customs and only talk about my own regional market!
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Camerosity wrote:
Exactly!
Roughly half of the models signed by a top agency will wash out during their preparation/“training” period or during the first year to 18 months.
For those who don’t, the money the agency invested in them upfront for trainers, promotion, etc., will be deducted from their earnings over a period of time.
Rarely has the agency made back those expenses (and started making real money) through commissions on the model before the fourth year. There are a few exceptions.
Even later, the model continues to reimburse the agency’s expenses. If a model’s handler takes her to lunch, the model’s lunch is likely to be deducted from her commission check.
For those who wash out, the agency will usually forgive those expenses and write them off.
With the top agencies, their money is made over the long term, not the short term. That’s one of the main reasons why the competition to find and sign the best prospects at an early age is so intense.
Ten to twelve years of solid income from a model can wipe out a lot of expenses for those models who didn’t make it.
Having an occasional model like Gisele Bündchen, who keep bringing in the big bucks, well into their 30s, doesn’t exactly hurt an agency’s bottom line, either.
If you want to know where another goldmine is, if you refer a model (through proper channels) to an agency, and she gets signed, some agencies will send you a check for 10% of the model’s earnings as long as she’s signed and modeling.
Not bad for a phone call or an introductory meeting…
I’d like to be the guy (actually, I believe it was a couple) who referred Karlie Kloss (who now has a net worth of about $30 million at age 26 and married the brother of President Trump's son-in-law last year) to Elite Model Management’s Chicago office when she was playing basketball at Webster Groves High School (about 13 miles from me) and taking ballet lessons.
And a few more like her. What you've posted simply isn't how the agencies I'm familiar with work and they include Elite, FORD, DNA and others. Agencies don't keep models who aren't booking work more then a few months. There are too many models who they can choose from (new). What training do models go through? You start shooting and either you have a look that clients like or you don't. Runway is not something every print model does well and that can take practice. While some agencies do deduct models expenses (tests, comp card and web site placement) from what they earn. Most don't pay anything and models who are independent contractors are responsible for paying for everything on their own. However I assure everyone that anything an agency pays for they aren't forgiving. Its a type of loan. It comes with interest.
However I could be wrong could you share these 'top' agencies who do as you claim. Those curious about the agency world can go here: http://model.world/directory/author/rogertalley/ Here's a brief breakdown of how this works. You send basic snaps via email or go to a agencies open call day. if they like your look they will suggest people to test with and some make-up artists. You may have to pay to shoot or if you're lucky get free tests but odds are you'll pay. Afterwards your agent will review the images and send you out to test more. Usually after four or five shoots you will be expected to get a comp card printed and also pay to appear on their website. Its not free. Here is one. http://www.dnamodels.com/
This is where ad agencies look for new faces and potential clients look also. This process usually happens over a few months at best. Not years. Commercial models are usually expected to have a commercial book and comp card. Fashion models are not. I've read several of your posts on agencies and professional modeling. Based on what I know and I won't pretend to be an expert you are simply not factual.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Based on what I know and I won't pretend to be an expert you are simply not factual. What specifically do you disagree with?
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Camerosity wrote:
What specifically do you disagree with? I'm not familiar with any ' top' agencies who keep models on their boards for multiple months or years who aren't booking work. I've shot models from Elite (when they were in Chicago) Aria, David and Lee, Mary Boncher, Factor and a few more. None of these agencies did that and Elite is still a top agency today. Fashion and commercial models who aren't making money for their agencies aren't re-signed after a year that I'm aware of. While some agencies will pay for some things for their models most simply won't. Models are independent contractors and expected to cover their tests, comp cards and website placement. Agencies tend to be cheap and if they do pay the models things the models expected to repay that loan which comes with interest even if they stop modeling.
Part of the reason agencies don't keep models who aren't booking paid work is because their are way more models then work. If clients aren't hiring them they are removed from the agency. There is no training for models. You either have a look that works which tends to mean being tall, thin and with features that are considered attractive. Clear skin, white teeth are important also but no training is needed and what would this training include? I know 16 year old models who were booking covers weeks after testing. No 'training' Runway takes a special style I'll admit. However I'm guessing you were focused on print. While I've heard that on occasion photographers who refer a model who gets signed and does well gets them some $$$. I've never heard of anyone who's cashed in on this mythical thing. Have you?
In the past you've said things about the agency world and professional models. I didn't respond but what you've said then and now doesn't match up to what I know but again I'm no expert.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm not familiar with any ' top' agencies who keep models on their boards for multiple months or years who aren't booking work. I've shot models from Elite (when they were in Chicago) Aria, David and Lee, Mary Boncher, Factor and a few more. None of these agencies did that and Elite is still a top agency today. Fashion and commercial models who aren't making money for their agencies aren't re-signed after a year that I'm aware of. While some agencies will pay for some things for their models most simply won't. Models are independent contractors and expected to cover their tests, comp cards and website placement. Agencies tend to be cheap and if they do pay the models things the models expected to repay that loan which comes with interest even if they stop modeling.
Part of the reason agencies don't keep models who aren't booking paid work is because their are way more models then work. If clients aren't hiring them they are removed from the agency. There is no training for models. You either have a look that works which tends to mean being tall, thin and with features that are considered attractive. Clear skin, white teeth are important also but no training is needed and what would this training include? I know 16 year old models who were booking covers weeks after testing. No 'training' Runway takes a special style I'll admit. However I'm guessing you were focused on print. While I've heard that on occasion photographers who refer a model who gets signed and does well gets them some $$$. I've never heard of anyone who's cashed in on this mythical thing. Have you?
In the past you've said things about the agency world and professional models. I didn't respond but what you've said then and now doesn't match up to what I know but again I'm no expert. I’m no expert either.
Let’s start with the 10% finder’s fee.
Here are five videos, including two from ABC’s Nightline, about a St. Louis area couple, Jeff and Mary Clarke. As it happens, the Clarkes own and operate Mother Model Management in St. Louis, and on their best days they “discovered” Ashton Kutcher and Karlie Kloss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_kLsu0kXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHh2cpLGzIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UigVkyFD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueu41OnAA7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yWwiALlUg
Two studios ago, my studio was a few blocks west of MMM’s offices on Locust St. (The Locust Street Business District has more photographers’ studios per square foot than any other part of the metro area.)
Over the past 7-8 years, I have met and/or talked with the Clarkes a handful of times.
Last I heard, they had discovered at least 45 fashion models who went on to bigger and better things outside St. Louis.
Here’s a probably incomplete list of models they discovered who, as the Clarkes say, have walked the top runways of NYC, London, Milan and Paris, many of whom are now represented by NYC agencies:
Karlie Kloss, Grace Hartzel, Alanna Arrington, Jay Wright, Myla Dalbesio, Jennie Runk, Bree Smith, Mae Vanderweide, Dakota Duffy, Molly Constable, Mallory Veith, Allie Fosheim, Lindsay Lullman, Jessica Felter, Betsy Volk, Abbey Reis, Ryan Penske, Rosie Newman, Sullivan Reid, Olivia Ross, Catie Greene, Hazel Crew, Briley Jones, Leah Hassett, Macara Harrison, Minnie Warren, Ashley James, Liv Hampton, Josie Moran, Katie Schmid, Jordan Strange, Chloe Robertson, Coleton Crain, Spencer James, Sam Torres, Alijah Harrison, Amelia Akerheilm, Katie Fogarty, Lauren Bigelow, Ryan Mertz, Ehren Dorsey, Jenny Sweeny, Jud Birza.
A few seconds after 7:00 in the second video, you’ll hear a brief reference to the 10% finder’s fee.
When I asked them about it, they told me that they are collecting 10% of the earnings of several of the models they’ve discovered and referred to top agencies.
I’ve also seen an interview in which the finder’s fee was discussed in somewhat more detail, although I haven’t been able to find it this morning.
They didn’t say specifically whether they were paid a finder’s fee for discovering Karlie Kloss, and I didn’t ask, but I believe it’s likely that they were.
I have no idea how widespread this practice is, but things I’ve been told by the Clarkes and others suggests to me that it’s not terribly uncommon.
I’ve discussed the things I mentioned in my above post with the Clarkes as well as a few models, most recently one who is represented by Elite NYC (she said, “Yeah, it happens.”) and one of the models who has walked in MMM’s annual Tribute show a few times, including one or both of the shows referenced in the last two videos.
These and other models also talked about their lives from being signed to becoming profitable, which I referred to in a previous post. I’m not going to name names without a model’s permission.
I’ve been told that a model who has been through a boot camp (like the Clarkes’) may have a shorter trip to profitability after signing. However, a model who is signed at age 13-16 or a model with zero modeling experience may have a longer road.
I consider information from the Clarkes and the agency models I’ve talked with to be credible. However, if you’d like more information, there’s a youtube playlist of 50 (as I recall) videos about them, including a few from Good Morning America and Entertainment Tonight. I haven’t watched all of them.
Because of a serious illness (breast cancer) in the family, I had to close my studio over two years ago, so I’ve been out of touch for a couple of years. (I’m now looking for a new studio space, probably on Locust.)
Btw, I never said that agencies carry models who aren’t working or making money for four years. I said that typically (based on what I’ve been told, at least), they don’t generate enough commissions to exceed what the agency has invested in them until about the fourth year (which means after the end of the third year) on average.
I can’t prove that one way or the other, but that’s what I’ve been told by a few models and a couple of agencies.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm not familiar with any ' top' agencies who keep models on their boards for multiple months or years who aren't booking work. I've shot models from Elite (when they were in Chicago) Aria, David and Lee, Mary Boncher, Factor and a few more. None of these agencies did that and Elite is still a top agency today. Fashion and commercial models who aren't making money for their agencies aren't re-signed after a year that I'm aware of. While some agencies will pay for some things for their models most simply won't. Models are independent contractors and expected to cover their tests, comp cards and website placement. Agencies tend to be cheap and if they do pay the models things the models expected to repay that loan which comes with interest even if they stop modeling.
Part of the reason agencies don't keep models who aren't booking paid work is because their are way more models then work. If clients aren't hiring them they are removed from the agency. There is no training for models. You either have a look that works which tends to mean being tall, thin and with features that are considered attractive. Clear skin, white teeth are important also but no training is needed and what would this training include? I know 16 year old models who were booking covers weeks after testing. No 'training' Runway takes a special style I'll admit. However I'm guessing you were focused on print. While I've heard that on occasion photographers who refer a model who gets signed and does well gets them some $$$. I've never heard of anyone who's cashed in on this mythical thing. Have you?
In the past you've said things about the agency world and professional models. I didn't respond but what you've said then and now doesn't match up to what I know but again I'm no expert. I’m no expert either.
Let’s start with the 10% finder’s fee.
Here are five videos, including two from ABC’s Nightline, about a St. Louis area couple, Jeff and Mary Clarke. As it happens, the Clarkes own and operate Mother Model Management in St. Louis, and on their best days they “discovered” Ashton Kutcher and Karlie Kloss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_kLsu0kXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHh2cpLGzIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UigVkyFD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueu41OnAA7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yWwiALlUg
Two studios ago, my studio was a few blocks west of MMM’s offices on Locust St. (The Locust Street Business District has more photographers’ studios per square foot than any other part of the metro area.)
Over the past 7-8 years, I have met and/or talked with the Clarkes a handful of times.
Last I heard, they had discovered at least 45 fashion models who went on to bigger and better things outside St. Louis.
Here’s a probably incomplete list of models they discovered who, as the Clarkes say, have walked the top runways of NYC, London, Milan and Paris, many of whom are now represented by NYC agencies:
Karlie Kloss, Grace Hartzel, Alanna Arrington, Jay Wright, Myla Dalbesio, Jennie Runk, Bree Smith, Mae Vanderweide, Dakota Duffy, Molly Constable, Mallory Veith, Allie Fosheim, Lindsay Lullman, Jessica Felter, Betsy Volk, Abbey Reis, Ryan Penske, Rosie Newman, Sullivan Reid, Olivia Ross, Catie Greene, Hazel Crew, Briley Jones, Leah Hassett, Macara Harrison, Minnie Warren, Ashley James, Liv Hampton, Josie Moran, Katie Schmid, Jordan Strange, Chloe Robertson, Coleton Crain, Spencer James, Sam Torres, Alijah Harrison, Amelia Akerheilm, Katie Fogarty, Lauren Bigelow, Ryan Mertz, Ehren Dorsey, Jenny Sweeny, Jud Birza.
A few seconds after 7:00 in the second video, you’ll hear a brief reference to the 10% finder’s fee.
When I asked them about it, they told me that they are collecting 10% of the earnings of several of the models they’ve discovered and referred to top agencies.
I’ve also seen an interview in which the finder’s fee was mentioned with somewhat more detail, although I haven’t been able to find it this morning.
They didn’t say specifically whether they were paid a finder’s fee for discovering Karlie Kloss, and I didn’t ask, but I believe it’s likely that they were.
I have no idea how widespread this practice is, but things that theClarkes and others have said suggest to me that it’s not terribly uncommon.
I’ve discussed the things I mentioned in my above post with the Clarkes as well as a few models, most recently one who is represented by Elite NYC (she said, “Yeah, it happens.”) and one of the models who has walked in MMM’s annual Tribute show a few times, including one or both of the shows referenced in the last two videos.
These and other models also talked about their lives from being signed to becoming profitable, which I referred to in a previous post. I’m not going to name names without a model’s permission.
I’ve been told that a model who has been through a boot camp (like the Clarkes’) may have a shorter trip to profitability after signing. However, a model who is signed at age 13-16 or a model with zero modeling experience may have a longer road.
I consider information from the Clarkes and the agency models I’ve talked with to be credible. However, if you’d like more information, there’s a youtube playlist of 50 (as I recall) videos about them, including a few from Good Morning America and Entertainment Tonight. I haven’t watched all of them.
Because of a serious illness (breast cancer) in the family, I had to close my studio over two years ago, so I’ve been out of touch for a couple of years. (I’m now looking for a new studio space, probably on Locust.)
Btw, I never said that agencies carry models who aren’t working or making money for four years. I said that typically (based on what I’ve been told, at least), they don’t generate enough commissions to exceed what the agency has invested in them until about the fourth year (which means after the end of the third year) on average.
I can’t prove that one way or the other, but that’s what I’ve been told by a few models and a couple of agencies.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Camerosity wrote:
I’m no expert either.
Let’s start with the 10% finder’s fee.
Here are five videos, including two from ABC’s Nightline, about a St. Louis area couple, Jeff and Mary Clarke. As it happens, the Clarkes own and operate Mother Model Management in St. Louis, and on their best days they “discovered” Ashton Kutcher and Karlie Kloss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_kLsu0kXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHh2cpLGzIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UigVkyFD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueu41OnAA7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yWwiALlUg
Two studios ago, my studio was a few blocks west of MMM’s offices on Locust St. (The Locust Street Business District has more photographers’ studios per square foot than any other part of the metro area.)
Over the past 7-8 years, I have met and/or talked with the Clarkes a handful of times.
Last I heard, they had discovered at least 45 fashion models who went on to bigger and better things outside St. Louis.
Here’s a probably incomplete list of models they discovered who, as the Clarkes say, have walked the top runways of NYC, London, Milan and Paris, many of whom are now represented by NYC agencies:
Karlie Kloss, Grace Hartzel, Alanna Arrington, Jay Wright, Myla Dalbesio, Jennie Runk, Bree Smith, Mae Vanderweide, Dakota Duffy, Molly Constable, Mallory Veith, Allie Fosheim, Lindsay Lullman, Jessica Felter, Betsy Volk, Abbey Reis, Ryan Penske, Rosie Newman, Sullivan Reid, Olivia Ross, Catie Greene, Hazel Crew, Briley Jones, Leah Hassett, Macara Harrison, Minnie Warren, Ashley James, Liv Hampton, Josie Moran, Katie Schmid, Jordan Strange, Chloe Robertson, Coleton Crain, Spencer James, Sam Torres, Alijah Harrison, Amelia Akerheilm, Katie Fogarty, Lauren Bigelow, Ryan Mertz, Ehren Dorsey, Jenny Sweeny, Jud Birza.
A few seconds after 7:00 in the second video, you’ll hear a brief reference to the 10% finder’s fee.
When I asked them about it, they told me that they are collecting 10% of the earnings of several of the models they’ve discovered and referred to top agencies.
I’ve also seen an interview in which the finder’s fee was mentioned with somewhat more detail, although I haven’t been able to find it this morning.
They didn’t say specifically whether they were paid a finder’s fee for discovering Karlie Kloss, and I didn’t ask, but I believe it’s likely that they were.
I have no idea how widespread this practice is, but things that theClarkes and others have said suggest to me that it’s not terribly uncommon.
I’ve discussed the things I mentioned in my above post with the Clarkes as well as a few models, most recently one who is represented by Elite NYC (she said, “Yeah, it happens.”) and one of the models who has walked in MMM’s annual Tribute show a few times, including one or both of the shows referenced in the last two videos.
These and other models also talked about their lives from being signed to becoming profitable, which I referred to in a previous post. I’m not going to name names without a model’s permission.
I’ve been told that a model who has been through a boot camp (like the Clarkes’) may have a shorter trip to profitability after signing. However, a model who is signed at age 13-16 or a model with zero modeling experience may have a longer road.
I consider information from the Clarkes and the agency models I’ve talked with to be credible. However, if you’d like more information, there’s a youtube playlist of 50 (as I recall) videos about them, including a few from Good Morning America and Entertainment Tonight. I haven’t watched all of them.
Because of a serious illness (breast cancer) in the family, I had to close my studio over two years ago, so I’ve been out of touch for a couple of years. (I’m now looking for a new studio space, probably on Locust.)
Btw, I never said that agencies carry models who aren’t working or making money for four years. I said that typically (based on what I’ve been told, at least), they don’t generate enough commissions to exceed what the agency has invested in them until about the fourth year (which means after the end of the third year) on average.
I can’t prove that one way or the other, but that’s what I’ve been told by a few models and a couple of agencies. Large agency or not, agents simply aren't going to keep a model who isn't bringing in money signed. The sad truth is most agencies aren't making a lot of money. Its tough out there with clients especially many of the smaller ones using Instagram models. For example FORD closed its doors in Toronto. Maybe years past folks would get 10% for a popular model they introduced to an agency but today it may never happen. Agencies aren't typically investing anything or much of any real money into their models. You are generally responsible for covering tests, make-up, comp cards and other expenses. If they pay, you are expected to repay them and if you stop modeling or aren't booking much you still owe.
There is no real training a model needs. Either you look good on camera and are comfortable or you aren't. A whole lot of great looking people don't photograph well and come off as stiff or dead looking. You mentioned Karlie Kloss being 'discovered' but remember she comes from a family with some cash and influence and she's a former Elite model. She's not typical in any way for the average girl. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlie_Kloss Take note of when she started (14) and what she posed for. You don't need any classes or boot training. If you are not getting at least paid editorial work from your agency after four to six months you need to find out what's up. Models have a short shelf life and you don't want to waste a minute.
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 2739
Los Angeles, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Large agency or not, agents simply aren't going to keep a model who isn't bringing in money signed. The sad truth is most agencies aren't making a lot of money. Its tough out there with clients especially many of the smaller ones using Instagram models. For example FORD closed its doors in Toronto. Maybe years past folks would get 10% for a popular model they introduced to an agency but today it may never happen. Agencies aren't typically investing anything or much of any real money into their models. You are generally responsible for covering tests, make-up, comp cards and other expenses. If they pay, you are expected to repay them and if you stop modeling or aren't booking much you still owe.
There is no real training a model needs. Either you look good on camera and are comfortable or you aren't. A whole lot of great looking people don't photograph well and come off as stiff or dead looking. You mentioned Karlie Kloss being 'discovered' but remember she comes from a family with some cash and influence and she's a former Elite model. She's not typical in any way for the average girl. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlie_Kloss Take note of when she started (14) and what she posed for. You don't need any classes or boot training. If you are not getting at least paid editorial work from your agency after four to six months you need to find out what's up. Models have a short shelf life and you don't want to waste a minute. Tony, you're correct about how important it is to land work as an agency model when starting out. I have lined up to shoot agency models, and one, she was dropped around the week of the shoot, which was devastating as I was submitting to top print magazines. She wasn't making enough money for them so she was gone.. . .
Model
Veronica Noelle
Posts: 16
Chicago, Illinois, US
I don't know what to do. I'm rather new. I recently decided to "take the plunge". I also recently turned 26 and am 5'8 104 lbs. I have been told to submit photos to agencies but I don't know if I'm too short or too old.
Photographer
The Other Place
Posts: 784
Los Angeles, California, US
Veronica Noelle wrote:
I don't know what to do. I'm rather new. I recently decided to "take the plunge". I also recently turned 26 and am 5'8 104 lbs. I have been told to submit photos to agencies but I don't know if I'm too short or too old. As a photographer, I think it is important for new models to focus on developing their modeling "chops."
Find ten different poses of other models that seem interesting, and practice them in front of a mirror. Notice their expressions and how lightly and gracefully they hold their hands (or not) and note other subtle angles of their head and extremities.
Here is another MM model who is also 5'8' and who has strong modeling chops. She can do a great variety of poses and she can make her stance (and expression) interesting and dynamic. She probably gets a lot of work.
By the way, she also writes about modeling.
Hopefully, some models will chime in with better advice.
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