Square Jaw Photography wrote:
Why not PM a photog and say "Hey, love your work...

They already say that in tags.  One rather common and  hilarious tag is: Your portfolio is so wonderful that I want to comment on every image.  Now the limit on PMs has reduced PMs thus driving traffic to tags.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
"I see some images I feel I could enhance and really bring out!"

One fellow wrote that to me.  I said: OK. The results were bizarre and cartoonish.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
I did my own retouching for years and never could match the caliber of those who do it professionally.

You do or don't like their caliber?  What do you like about them?  But now you want to hire them???  Learn to do it yourself!

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
... So I recently began hiring retouchers, and received mixed results. Some blew me away, others disappointed. Some disregarded all requests and completely missed the mark.

You pay your money and you take your chances.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
Some blew me away.

Hire them only.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
I still want to hire retouchers, but as a "noob" to that game I find it to be a gamble, with my money and time on the line. Retouchers usually need specifics, and I seem to have trouble communicating them.

You've been here too long to be a noob.  Take lessons & study.  Then you won't have communication problems.

Mark Salo wrote:
They already say that in tags.  One rather common and  hilarious tag is: Your portfolio is so wonderful that I want to comment on every image.  Now the limit on PMs has reduced PMs thus driving traffic to tags.

This is a hypothetical introduction of an example PM. There was no need to isolate and comment on it.

Mark Salo wrote:
One fellow wrote that to me.  I said: OK. The results were bizarre and cartoonish.

I feel your pain there, but as someone new to hiring retouchers, it at least provides me a frame of reference on the skills of others and how they can help/hurt my imagery

Mark Salo wrote:
You do or don't like their caliber?  What do you like about them?  But now you want to hire them???  Learn to do it yourself!

I do like their caliber, as the statement implies my efforts towards matching them, but unable to do so. So of course I want to hire them. And if I have been retouching for years (which includes multiple online courses, several tutorials, and countless hours of practical application) and still cannot match their caliber, then hiring instead of self retouching makes more sense if I have a more difficult project.

Mark Salo wrote:
You pay your money and you take your chances.

That is a given. Which is why I posted this forum. I am suggesting a way to communicate with retouchers more effectively, so fewer "chances" are taken.

Mark Salo wrote:
You've been here too long to be a noob.  Take lessons & study.  Then you won't have communication problems.

This statement implies that I am being too lazy and haven't been doing exactly as you suggest. Let's paint a clearer picture; I am an active duty US Marine cameraman and currently have no access to formal training in model retouching. I use Lynda.com for basic courses, YouTube, Vimeo, anything I can get my hands on to hone my retouching. But the professional retouchers seem to have a certain "je ne sais quoi" that I am unable to figure out.Their skin blending is cleaner, their colors bolder and balanced, and they seem to know what do with an image the moment they see it I tend to edit and retouch for hours per image and cannot match what they can produce.

Also, per your comments, take lessons and study what exactly? How to talk to retouchers? Can you point me in the direction of that class? And I have been where too long to be a noob? I am a noob at hiring retouchers, as described in the comments.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
Been going through these threads and the one on Retouchers randomly sending friend requests piqued my interest. I did my own retouching for years and never could match the caliber of those who do it professionally. So I recently began hiring retouchers, and received mixed results. Some blew me away, others disappointed. Some disregarded all requests and completely missed the mark.

It really all depends on what you want, your goals and vision, treat finding a retoucher like any personal service in your life, you need to find a good fit so most likely someone who retouches images like yours, (e.g. a beauty photographer will look for a beauty retoucher) so define your work style and look for a retoucher who does that type of retouching because they will have more practice and understanding in that area most likely.

I still want to hire retouchers, but as a "noob" to that game I find it to be a gamble, with my money and time on the line. Retouchers usually need specifics, and I seem to have trouble communicating them.

When you find a few retouchers you like, message them and ask them if they would be interested in doing a test image that could lead to reoccurring paid work - send them all the same image and when/if they send back the image, weigh up how they did each, in terms of speed, quality and approachability.

So, instead of the random friend request as a way to advertise and network, why not send a message, or a TAG even? I look at my port knowing some images would benefit from better retouching, yet I don't know what exactly what. Why not PM a photog and say "Hey, love your work, and I'd like to know if you are in need of retouch services? I see some images I feel I could enhance and really bring out!" And then, if responded to, outline some specifics that you could do, and why you feel it necessary, and maybe a price quote.

I have to say your ideal is not going to happen, I'm sorry to say, people on MM send copy+paste messages, tags etc. to everyone, they tend to not even look through a portfolio - and also most great, professional retouchers are not on Model Mayhem so I think you need to look outside of this box for advice

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
Test images sent out sound like a great idea, and I have considered it in the past, but how many retouchers would spend time on an image for a potential rejection? Or is it more commonplace than I realize?

As retouchers, what kind of specifics do you look for when a client sends in a request?

The first half of that question just depends on the person, but as long as the request is clear and easy to follow and not vague and open-ended you should be good to go.

JerichoFoxx wrote:
Another thing you could try is post here https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/thread/76

Nice! Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for. I love some of the work on these threads!

Mike Needham Retouching wrote:
I hate the expectation of a "test retouch", it's so presumptory, I don't ask starbucks for a test coffee in case I prefer some other chains products. Pay the price for an image and if you don't like it dont pay for another.

I can understand that, as it is akin to asking a photographer, "Can I please have the RAWs?" Yet I guess it just depends on the personal preference of a person and what offends them. I am already collaborating with PKJ Retouching because of his suggestion for "test retouches".

I feel it can also be presumptuous to demand multiple payments for a service if it did not meet original intent. I wouldn't go to car dealership and purchase a specific car, and when they deliver something different just pay for another.

Mike Needham Retouching wrote:
I hate the expectation of a "test retouch", it's so presumptory, I don't ask starbucks for a test coffee in case I prefer some other chains products. Pay the price for an image and if you don't like it dont pay for another.

True, but testing is about building trust and also trying new things, of course you can do a paid test, but it depends on the terms and conditions, but I find retouching one free image as a test will show them that you trust your photographer/client and if you show them you can produce good work even on a test thats cost free, they will most likely come back and work with you again

I have found that all my client work and paid work came from references and from tests I did with clients, especially in the beginning of starting as a retoucher freelance. It's important to remember that you should do retouching for more than just money

Mark Salo wrote:
One fellow wrote that to me.  I said: OK. The results were bizarre and cartoonish.

Cheap and quality do not match, indeed there are people who request huge rates but  before and after examples should help you judge and choose.

Free test should be a low size watermark version, personally i dont have time to build trust on my time and old clients`. If you are new in business then yes you should do a lot of free work till you get a decent portfolio.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
Been going through these threads and the one on Retouchers randomly sending friend requests piqued my interest. I did my own retouching for years and never could match the caliber of those who do it professionally.

Learn about color. Start here and follow hundreds of links leading to other hundreds of links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color

Retouchers usually need specifics, and I seem to have trouble communicating them.

I think you communicate your needs quite well. If someone needs specifics this may be for various reasons and those can be clarified in a few sentences.

Joe Diamond wrote:
Cheap and quality do not match

Expensive and quality do not match either. In most cases quality has nothing to do with price.

Free test should be a low size watermark version, personally i dont have time to build trust on my time and old clients`. If you are new in business then yes you should do a lot of free work till you get a decent portfolio.

What's the point in doing watermarked tests? This doesn't build trust, on the contrary - it says "I put a watermark because I don't trust you". Plus - how can the other possibly evaluate the quality if he cannot inspect it in original size?

Usually the process of testing has lots of ethical issues, so it is best to avoid it. If one has a good portfolio - ask for uncompressed hi-res samples/crops of what you want to see (those can be watermarked). Any professional who knows what to look for will be able to evaluate the quality from this without wasting the time of the other party.

Mike Needham Retouching wrote:
I hate the expectation of a "test retouch", it's so presumptory, I don't ask starbucks for a test coffee in case I prefer some other chains products. Pay the price for an image and if you don't like it dont pay for another.

The Starbucks near me will make a free second coffee, or issue a refund, in cases where a customer isn't happy.

Square Jaw Photography wrote:
So, instead of the random friend request as a way to advertise and network, why not send a message, or a TAG even? I look at my port knowing some images would benefit from better retouching, yet I don't know what exactly what. Why not PM a photog and say "Hey, love your work, and I'd like to know if you are in need of retouch services? I see some images I feel I could enhance and really bring out!" And then, if responded to, outline some specifics that you could do, and why you feel it necessary, and maybe a price quote.

One thing that VIP members forget is that you can't write to anyone outside your friends list. So you got to add them first.
Where's when a retoucher's tag always looks like spam there's a chance that those photographers would simply block you. So no luck here either.

AG_Boston wrote:
The Starbucks near me will make a free second coffee, or issue a refund, in cases where a customer isn't happy.

That is different from free testing as it is done in the challenges forum and in other cases - just throwing a few images and waiting for magic to happen.

A professional retouching service will always give you room for corrections if some requirement has not been completed properly. That of course is quite different from requesting "paint my car black" and then saying "well, I actually wanted green, so refund me or paint my other car for free". That's why clear and objective requirements are important, not something like "do your magic", "i want basic", "i want high-end", "surprise me", "show me your style", "i just want to see how you work" etc. If the requesting party is not quite clear it is normal to discuss details before starting to work. When you have a specification, there isn't really any room for mistakes and dissatisfaction. The car is black as requested.