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Agreements from models to photographers?
Photographers have us models sign model release forms. Would it be legal if I had an agreement that a photographer had to sign? I'm getting very irritated with photographers who take 6 months+ to give me even ONE image from a test photo shoot. For example I did a photo shoot in March 06 and one in June 06 and I have yet to receive ANYTHING from the photo shoots. Im tired of this because I dont intend on wasting my time if the photographers arent going to give me anything for my book. Could I have a simple contract in which photographers have to provide me with at least 5-10 images within 10 business days? Would that be okay or do I have to thru a lawyer to write my own contract? Please let me know...message me. Dec 06 06 08:40 pm Link Many photographers include this right in the model release. Dec 06 06 08:43 pm Link A model release is only a release. Too many people think it's the same as a contract. A release is for the model to sign....not the photographer. If you want to have the photographer sign something that says he/she is to give you a set amount of images by a certain date then have him/her agree to it and type it up. Take it to the shoot and have them sign it. I think it's smart business when you are doing a trade. But it has nothing to do with the actual model release Dec 06 06 08:47 pm Link As a photographer anyone who models for me gets their cd of full shoot with in 24 hours. As a model (my wife models too) we get our images right away. If the photographer comes here they bring a lap top and burn a cd as soon as the shoot is done. The only time we had to wait was with a film photographer and that took about 3 months but he also was located over 100 miles from us.I think it would be fair to have a contract to get your images with in 10 days Dec 06 06 08:51 pm Link Thomas B wrote: There's no reason the release can't be multi-purpose. Dec 06 06 08:54 pm Link I always have the cd, in a case with a pic from the shoot printed on the insert with the models name in large fancy print, 20 to 30, sometimes more, edited web sized and full res printable files, along with 4 to 6 11x8 prints in the models hand within a week. Dec 06 06 08:56 pm Link Oh okay...I know they are two completely different things but I was just using it as an example of something us models sign. Thanks for all your help...I will type one up tonight. One more question - I dont know if i should say that the photographer should email/mail me 5-10 images edited, or all of them raw on a CD, or something else, because every photographer works differently...i want to be a general agreement - the main point being that i get my images within 10 days, whether it be 5 edited, and a cd with them raw, or 10 edited, none raw... Dec 06 06 08:57 pm Link wow Fred & Ron...I wish there were more photographers out there like you two... Dec 06 06 08:58 pm Link SKPhoto: Sometimes its hard to find references though when the models info that have worked with the photographers isnt provided...and i try and stay in communication with them, i try not to bug them about it but Ive been waiting so long for my pics and they keep saying they will mail them but never do...i dont know what to do...i dont want to seem pushy and hard to work with but how do i get my pictures within 10 business days? Dec 06 06 09:00 pm Link Fred Greenwood wrote: That was all that was needed. Dec 06 06 09:01 pm Link some photographers tell me "Oh, you will get your pictures in 2-3 weeks, depending how busy i am" or "it depends on my other photos and how many need to be edited" so they never give me an exact date...they just make it seem like whenever they are ready..but it wasnt just THEIR shoot...it was OUR shoot..so i feel i should be able to have some type of a say in the limit of how long it takes to get my photos. Dec 06 06 09:08 pm Link Ruvi wrote: Write it up for 4 weeks with a âTime is of the essence" thing and give it to them. Dec 06 06 09:14 pm Link Ruvi: A couple of things - True...a shoot is "our" shoot between model and photographer. However you very specifically used the word "test" to describe what you did. Not TFP, not TFCD, but TEST. Now I'm sure that there are those who call everything they do a test. But if I'm doing a test, or if someone tells me they are doing a test, to me that means that somewhere in the background is a client and job looking for a model. Tests don't result in anything for the model except out of the graciousness of the photographers (and/or clients heart). A test is a job application. I don't get to take home a few pencils or an adding machine from a place just because I applied for work there. Now if you were doing a TFP or TFCD, I wouldn't sign anything that nailed me down to 5 days or 10 days, I'd go with a different model, my release says "approximately 30 days", you never know when tragedy or disaster might come up, been there done that. It's whole lot of no fun having a model calling your cell phone every 30 minutes when you're at your mothers funeral. Sorry this takes precedence. RAW images - you got the software to process them into images? These don't open with Microsoft Paint. On the other hand, yeah, sounds like the guy is blowing you off. Jerk. It happens. To everyone. It will happen again. Even with a signed contract. What do you do if he had signed? Take him to court? It would be cheaper (and easier on the nerves) to just hire a photographer who's work you admire and pay him to shoot you. Dec 06 06 09:52 pm Link I'm curious - let's say you write up a contract that states that the photographer will get you the images within a specified time period. Call it four weeks. Ten weeks later, no images have arrived, and you choose to sue the photographer - exactly what damages do you claim? How did you arrive at that figure? Dec 06 06 10:01 pm Link Christopher Ambler wrote: Interesting point! Dec 06 06 10:38 pm Link If you want this thing to have teeth you would want to include some concrete penalties - after X days he owes you your normal modeling fee since it's no longer TFP. If you seem to be getting burnt enough to make it worth losing some shoots, go for it. You just have to accept that some photographers will be put off by this and you'll lose some opportunities. I would think that other approaches like checking references would be more effective. Dec 06 06 11:53 pm Link if you are going to do a "test" shoot, which i still don't really understand the concept, unless it is for a paid gig, you should always check references. ask a half dozen models that the photographer has already worked with how long it took them to get their images. after i shoot, im excited to start editing and i want the models to have images asap. the only reason i could think of to not get the model images is if none of the images were any good and i had no use for them. it hasn't happened yet, but anything is possible... as far as giving me a contract forcing me to edit in a certain time frame, i feel like you turn the situation into me against you, and completely take the team effort out of the project. maybe the photog making you wait is a "test" to see how patient you are??? Dec 07 06 12:10 am Link sorry i meant TFCD shoots....but the shoot i did in June was a test shoot for a magazine and i have yet to receive any images from it...checking references does sound like a smarter idea though..its just hard when photographers dont post credits for their models so you cant even message them...i can maybe ask them upfront for a reference though..thanks for the help. Dec 07 06 01:16 am Link Christopher Ambler wrote: and i wouldnt sue a photographer...i just felt like the contract reinforces it that im serious about getting my pictures, im not doing it for fun only. im doing it to build up my book. i felt that if they had to sign something they wouldn't take months and months to get to my pictures, it would be a task not just something they did when they felt like it...but now im thinking i would rather check references than write up a contract..it makes more sense. Dec 07 06 01:20 am Link A lawyer once told me that the most important word in a contract is the word 'or'. A contract serves multiple purposes. Primarily, it documents the agreement between the parties. This helps to reduce misunderstandings by making sure everyone agrees and understands the arrangement. As long as the parties are in agreement, this is the only purpose of the contract. In fact, as long as all parties agree, you can modify the contract at anytime, and change any part of it you like. Conflict arises when people disagree. Once there is a problem, bad feelings arise. Sometimes the contract was unclear, and people misunderstood the deal (which is why contracts need to be clear and cover details). Sometimes one party fails to fulfill his/her part of the bargain, and there is a disagreement over how significant the failing is. It's generally much easier to settle these disagreements before they happen, while everyone is still calm. This is where the word 'OR' comes in. "Photographer shall provide images to model within 30 days OR photographer shall pay model $XXX" "Payment shall be made within 10 days OR be subject to a $20 late fee and 1.5% per month interest" "Model shall arrive at the scheduled time OR model's compensation will be reduced by XXXX for every 15 minutes of lateness" "Model may bring an escort to the shoot. The escort must stay out of the way of the photographer OR ....." This is why real contracts are so long. They specify exactly what everyone should expect. They try to make sure there are no loose ends so there are no misunderstandings. They specify how disagreements and problems will be resolved. Dec 07 06 07:56 am Link Ruvi wrote: If you want pictures on your schedule, write me a check. Dec 07 06 08:10 am Link Ruvi wrote: You are incorrect. Dec 07 06 08:18 am Link Ruvi wrote: legal? yes. practical? no. Dec 07 06 09:08 am Link I think this is a situation where what you are attempting to do is reasonable, except it won't work. Some photographers are just busy and procrastinators. So if you try to make them sign a contract that requires them to perform to a schedule, or there will be penalties, they might just not want to shoot with you at all. And of course, the real problem is that a contract doesn't mean much to a lot of people. Just look at the number of peope who declare bankruptcy, default on credit cards, pay bills late, and so forth. In each of these cases, there is a contract signed, and typically an aggressive loss prevention/collection department trying to keep the customer honest, and yet. . . . So my advice -- for a test or TFP shoot, keep it simple. Don't get all legal and stuff -- just keep in contact with the photographer. Let him know up front that you are VERY anxious to get the pictures, and that you will be politely persistant in reminding him to stick to the schedule the two of you agreed on. I think you'll find this approach gets you much better results than sticking a contract under his nose. . . Ruvi wrote: Dec 07 06 09:16 am Link You know -- sometimes dinner at a good restaurant costs more than I charge for a photo shoot -- I'm thinking about getting a SOW agreement signed with the restaurant before I eat out again. . . FaceReality wrote: Dec 07 06 09:17 am Link bang bang photo wrote: a much different arrangement, as in business-consumer vs. business-to-business agreement. but, you do receive a sow in one aspect. it's called a menu. Dec 07 06 09:24 am Link I know this thread really isn't about it, but since it's come up twice already in a misleading way . . . . "Testing" generally has nothing to do with future jobs, clients, or actually trying out anything to see if it works. Yes, I am aware that sometimes it may, and also that there are those who insist on the literal meaning of the word. But most commonly, a "test" has no intended purpose other than to produce pictures for the model's (or other team member's) book. There have been several threads on the issue. Now, back to trying to convince a photographer to agree to a Statement of Work, listed deliverables, and a "time is of the essence" clause in a TFP contract. And of pigs flying, which is equally likely. Dec 07 06 10:19 am Link |
