Niall Doyle wrote:
I totally agree, yet they've spent hundreds of thousands on this months worth of location work and they would totally not understand unfortunately. If i was to explain that its impossible they'd just blame me and pick someone else next time. sadly, they give me a lot of repeat work as well so its not a client i can afford to lose.

Then they will be screwed, not you. It is not a question of money but of physical possibility.

anchev wrote:

Then they will be screwed, not you. It is not a question of money but of physical possibility.

Lolz - I always like your replies....."to the point" "cut-shot". Ram

Niall Doyle wrote:
Unfortunately not, every shot was different. Luckily as they are only gonna be viewed  in a catalogue style booklet i can prioritise numbers overquality. The way i found last night was to paint similar colours over the white scratches on darken mode  then adding monochromatic noise which blends them in quite nicely and is much fast than cloning.

It is amazing that one can spend hundreds of thousands, then send such photos and agree to similar retouching.

Greg Curran wrote:
They couldn't understand why I wanted this and proceeded to shoot it the way they wanted because they would have had to pay for 1 MORE IMAGE.

Didn't you explain to them that 1 more image is cheaper than N images? Clients with cheap thinking always need explanations. Sadly they don't always get it.

BTW here is another case: Once when I was shooting wood floorings for my textures at the office of one company which produces them, they were amazed that I took their mop and spent 10 minutes to clean the whole floor and my shoes as good as possible. Then I started shooting and everyone was looking with a smile. It is the same with hair, makeup, casting, everything. Retouching starts before the shoot. Not many understand this and waste a lot of money for a mediocre result.

anchev wrote:
Retouching starts before the shoot.

Truth.

Benski wrote:
The real answer - and the reason it's better to be an art director than a retoucher - is that you don't sleep and just get it done .. Or make sure you're on set (it's dangerous shooting without a digital operator) .. One thing I've learnt with brands is you don't complain.

Another 'real' answer is to always shoot the background without models or products on it. If possible from the main shooting position and focus rack as the main shots.

Benski wrote:
The real answer - and the reason it's better to be an art director than a retoucher - is that you don't sleep and just get it done .. Or make sure you're on set (it's dangerous shooting without a digital operator) .. One thing I've learnt with brands is you don't complain.

That's only if you want your eye retina to become like the images of that client. If you do that just to keep that client you are not helping anyone. Tomorrow they will come back with shots taken with the lens cap on and tell you "you have 2 hours to make these 50 images brilliant". And that is all you get from the relationship with that brand.

Clients must learn that retouching is not a convenient cheap replacement for attention. Garbage in = garbage out, regardless of brand. That's why we must talk to the client, explain and if they refuse to understand - they obviously have to pay for the extra work requested. Extreme requests require extreme payment. Trying to desperately keep a client who expects you to polish their dirty work without proper compensation is the worst business ever.

Dan Howell wrote:
Another 'real' answer is to always shoot the background without models or products on it. If possible from the main shooting position and focus rack as the main shots.

The real answer is to shoot on a clean floor that doesn't need retouching.

But as a retoucher your job is to get the work done with minimum fuss.

anchev wrote:
That's only if you want your eye retina to become like the images of that client. If you do that just to keep that client you are not helping anyone. Tomorrow they will come back with shots taken with the lens cap on and tell you "you have 2 hours to make these 50 images brilliant". And that is all you get from the relationship with that brand.

Clients must learn that retouching is not a convenient cheap replacement for attention. Garbage in = garbage out, regardless of brand. That's why we must talk to the client, explain and if they refuse to understand - they obviously have to pay for the extra work requested. Extreme requests require extreme payment. Trying to desperately keep a client who expects you to polish their dirty work without proper compensation is the worst business ever.

You should certainly talk to the photographer, and really be on set if you can.

But from my experience with brands and marketing (on both sides), there's a set budget, a set schedule, a lack of interest in the technical aspects of photography, and all they want is someone to get the job done without a single unnecessary email. (You can usually assume there'll be at least 20 other problems that you're not a part of.)

If you can be *that* retoucher, you raise your own value – they'll think of you as professional, and you can charge professional rates.

Benski wrote:
But as a retoucher your job is to get the work done with minimum fuss.

Benski wrote:
But from my experience with brands and marketing (on both sides), there's a set budget, a set schedule, a lack of interest in the technical aspects of photography, and all they want is someone to get the job done without a single unnecessary email. (You can usually assume there'll be at least 20 other problems that you're not a part of.)

If you can be *that* retoucher, you raise your own value – they'll think of you as professional, and you can charge professional rates.

I am not quite sure what you are saying. Your rate is professional when your work is professional. A brand which hires you without respect to your qualities and expects an obedient robo-slave silently serving their technical carelessness surely doesn't have the capacity to evaluate anything objectively. So if you are waiting to be appraised by such client your are in trouble.

anchev wrote:

I am not quite sure what you are saying. Your rate is professional when your work is professional. A brand which hires you without respect to your qualities and expects an obedient robo-slave silently serving their technical carelessness surely doesn't have the capacity to evaluate anything objectively. So if you are waiting to be appraised by such client your are in trouble.

Basically, you get the job done.

It took me a long time to learn this. Photographers, heads of marketing, business owners, etc. are ALL egomaniacs. No one likes hearing "This floor will take a lot more work", because it means you didn't do your job right.

When I use a cheap retoucher, I expect problems. When I pay £100/hr to a studio, I just expect the pictures to be turned around and perfect. And what sets a professional apart is they'll get the job done. In a professional environment, you do the unpaid overtime; you don't do emails. No one got to £100/hr on skin smoothing and colour work alone.

Benski wrote:
Basically, you get the job done.

It took me a long time to learn this. Photographers, heads of marketing, business owners, etc. are ALL egomaniacs. No one likes hearing "This floor will take a lot more work", because it means you didn't do your job right.

No. This means they didn't do their job right. And they must be informed that this has a price which they need to pay. When you scratch your car you can't just go to the car wash and expect to get your paint fixed. You need to pay for painting and of course it takes longer than a washing.

When I use a cheap retoucher, I expect problems. When I pay £100/hr to a studio, I just expect the pictures to be turned around and perfect. And what sets a professional apart is they'll get the job done.

It's the hollow marketing that makes you assume that price determines quality. It doesn't. Clients send me all the time images processed by some of those professionals who charge the insane amounts because all they received in return was rubbish. So they ask me to redo everything from scratch and guess who has long term job in the end. You simply can't beat truth and honesty with bloated pricing and branding.

In a professional environment, you do the unpaid overtime; you don't do emails. No one got to £100/hr on skin smoothing and colour work alone.

I am not familiar with your background but I can say for a fact that in business with serious parties you do emails and you do get paid for overtime. Always. If you just shut up and work obsequiously better don't tell anyone. (talking in general, not about you personally)

anchev wrote:
No. This means they didn't do their job right. And they must be informed that this has a price which they need to pay. When you scratch your car you can't just go to the car wash and expect to get your paint fixed. You need to pay for painting and of course it takes longer than a washing.

That's what I mean. You're telling them they didn't do their jobs properly. I mean presumably you see the images before quoting a price.

It's the hollow marketing that makes you assume that price determines quality. It doesn't. Clients send me all the time images processed by some of those professionals who charge the insane amounts because all they received in return was rubbish. So they ask me to redo everything from scratch and guess who has long term job in the end. You simply can't beat truth and honesty with bloated pricing and branding.

For me the question would be why they're paying those guys more, and why they're getting the jobs before you are?

I am not familiar with your background but I can say for a fact that in business with serious parties you do emails and you do get paid for overtime. Always. If you just shut up and work obsequiously better don't tell anyone. (talking in general, not about you personally)

The busy retouching studios in London, that are the first port of call for brands, tend to be fairly factory-like. The artists aren't necessarily more talented, but they will be used to delivering a standard and getting it turned around on time. These big clients will have used dozens of retouchers before, but chances are they'll remember if you're the guy who never has 'problems' – not that you're the guy who gets the best skin tones.

Benski wrote:
That's what I mean. You're telling them they didn't do their jobs properly. I mean presumably you see the images before quoting a price.

No, you are not telling them that. You are just sending a description with a price. They are free to accept it or ask particular things to be removed/added. This is your work plan, not some assumptions, accusations or anything like that.

For me the question would be why they're paying those guys more, and why they're getting the jobs before you are?

Why people first marry the wrong person, then divorce and marry the right one?

The busy retouching studios in London, that are the first port of call for brands, tend to be fairly factory-like. The artists aren't necessarily more talented, but they will be used to delivering a standard and getting it turned around on time. These big clients will have used dozens of retouchers before, but chances are they'll remember if you're the guy who never has 'problems' – not that you're the guy who gets the best skin tones.

You are adding too many unrelated connotations. Sending a detailed quote for approval doesn't mean you have "problems".

BTW I think we better stop. Let's not make another endless thread about life and universe The OP already found something which may work for him and his client, so that's enough (I think).

Eagle Rock Photographer wrote:
Is it feasible to cover the floor w/ green fabric, then in post treat it as a 'green screen' and strip in a nice floor?

It is feasible but not useful because it will create green cast. Plus with that you are introducing the issue of masking and reconstruction of the shadows which means more post. Chroma keying is more suitable for isolation when the subject is far from the background, not right on it.

anchev wrote:
No, you are not telling them that. You are just sending a description with a price. They are free to accept it or ask particular things to be removed/added. This is your work plan, not some assumptions, accusations or anything like that.

Honestly, all I'd want to hear is "I'm on it." Plenty of retouchers on £100/hr because they just get the job done. (I'm not one of them – but I've worked with those guys, and I know who I'd hire, money being no object.)

Why people first marry the wrong person, then divorce and marry the right one?

The first guy a woman marries is the one she wants to have kids with.. The second is the one she thinks won't leave her and won't run out of money.. Your genes want you to be the first guy.

You are adding too many unrelated connotations. Sending a detailed quote for approval doesn't mean you have "problems".

Nothing wrong with giving them a decent summary. But I wouldn't offer unsolicited advice if your aim is being the *first* retoucher they go to.

Eagle Rock Photographer wrote:
Is it feasible to cover the floor w/ green fabric, then in post treat it as a 'green screen' and strip in a nice floor?

Green screen's only *really* a time-saver with motion video .. I'd say with stills it's less trouble just to mask manually.

If your 3D Studio skills are good, putting in a CGI floor or walls isn't unheard of..

Benski wrote:
Honestly, all I'd want to hear is "I'm on it." Plenty of retouchers on £100/hr because they just get the job done. (I'm not one of them – but I've worked with those guys, and I know who I'd hire, money being no object.)

The first guy a woman marries is the one she wants to have kids with.. The second is the one she thinks won't leave her and won't run out of money.. Your genes want you to be the first guy.

Nothing wrong with giving them a decent summary. But I wouldn't offer unsolicited advice if your aim is being the *first* retoucher they go to.

It seems to me you are highly influenced by people who have this peculiar idea that one has to be a well paid underdog and that is some kind of professional value. What is even more strange is that previously you talked about retouching as of some sublime art which should not be considered merely a technical process and now you express the expectation that the vendor should be a "sir, yes, sir" soldier saluting the almighty generalissimo client. I suppose that's why you keep extending my words into a context which I never really gave them.

I haven't worked with the people who you admire so much and I have no idea who they are but I have worked on some very expensive visual projects which require high responsibility and attention. What I can assure you is that nobody who pays well has ever even attempted to have the attitude like that. On the contrary - when you are good they don't hire you just to shut up and work but actually welcome you to explain the approach you take on each milestone of the project. They often ask you to teach them certain things and you learn things from them. It is a very friendly collaboration in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. That is something priceless and it is the thing which gives you long term work and good relationship.

anchev wrote:
It seems to me you are highly influenced by people who have this peculiar idea that one has to be a well paid underdog and that is some kind of professional value. What is even more strange is that previously you talked about retouching as of some sublime art which should not be considered merely a technical process and now you express the expectation that the vendor should be a "sir, yes, sir" soldier saluting the almighty generalissimo client. I suppose that's why you keep extending my words into a context which I never really gave them.

I haven't worked with the people who you admire so much and I have no idea who they are but I have worked on some very expensive visual projects which require high responsibility and attention. What I can assure you is that nobody who pays well has ever even attempted to have the attitude like that. On the contrary - when you are good they don't hire you just to shut up and work but actually welcome you to explain the approach you take on each milestone of the project. They often ask you to teach them certain things and you learn things from them. It is a very friendly collaboration in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. That is something priceless and it is the thing which gives you long term work and good relationship.

I think the worst place to be, as a freelancer or artist, is a place where you don't see room for improvement and scope for progression. I never try and justify where I am, because where I am is probably not where I want to be. There are always better paid or more interesting things you could be doing (sometimes just by virtue of being new).

The duality of pursuing an artistic ideal and running a functional business is there in everything. DeviantArt's full of people being creative, but to be a Jony Ive or Marc Newson takes treading that line between artistic vision and commercial object perfectly ... The real skill isn't sitting around dreaming up nice colour palettes, but in understanding the world around you and what people need.

Doesn't every retoucher really want to be an artist or photographer? It's always more interesting working on your own images than zapping blackheads on someone else's. I retouched because of all the people on a shoot, you've got the easiest job and you're first to get paid. A technical job, but existentially easy. There's no point being a frustrated artist when you're doing 200 catalog images.. The key for me was realising it's a job. Retouching well is doing a job well. The challenge is adapting yourself to whatever you're asked to do .. Funnily enough, realising this made retouching much easier, but also made moving on from retouching much easier.

anchev wrote:

Didn't you explain to them that 1 more image is cheaper than N images? Clients with cheap thinking always need explanations. Sadly they don't always get it.

BTW here is another case: Once when I was shooting wood floorings for my textures at the office of one company which produces them, they were amazed that I took their mop and spent 10 minutes to clean the whole floor and my shoes as good as possible. Then I started shooting and everyone was looking with a smile. It is the same with hair, makeup, casting, everything. Retouching starts before the shoot. Not many understand this and waste a lot of money for a mediocre result.

I had to tell some photographers to brush their models hair!

anchev wrote:

It is feasible but not useful because it will create green cast. Plus with that you are introducing the issue of masking and reconstruction of the shadows which means more post. Chroma keying is more suitable for isolation when the subject is far from the background, not right on it.

Not necessarily. Actually, I think, chroma keying is actually a nice idea. You can keep the green cast at a minimum pretty easily. And as to the shadows: You could simply multiply the "lightness structure" from the green fabric onto the new floor without having to manually recreate the shadow areas. (I can even imagine doing something like that with CGI.)

Hmm, or not. I might be wrong, there might be more problems than I can see now. I'd need to see the actual situation...

Marcus Christopher wrote:
I'd need to see the actual situation...

The actual situation is: It was an urgent job 16 days ago

anchev wrote:
...On the contrary - when you are good they don't hire you just to shut up and work but actually welcome you to explain the approach you take on each milestone of the project. They often ask you to teach them certain things and you learn things from them. It is a very friendly collaboration in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. That is something priceless and it is the thing which gives you long term work and good relationship.

This has been my experience, although I only work in London a couple of times a year, I suspect it may be different there. On Tuesday I'm booked to head over to the home of the CD for a major sportswear company I freelance for, as she wants someone to help modernise her skill set.

Even though there's obviously an element of 'head down, clean, path, colour balance, prepare for print' in a company like that (obviously I prefer working on the location apparel/advertorial work), I never feel undervalued and never feel afraid to approach the lifers and say 'we've got a problem here.' If I did, I wouldn't work for them.