Oana Telegredean wrote:
Hello folks,

What do you think about photographers which want to pay $6 per image for retouching skin and hair perfect? Using D&B and so on...

They are not even worth thinking about. Especially those ones who proudly say "I shoot with the latest medium format camera" and expect others to do "tests" for them and "collaboration", i.e. work for free.

Why are people like that?

You are people too, as me and all of us. It is the way we are educated from childhood in the pattern of reward and punishment, to be competitive, greedy etc. Rarely some of us see the stupidity of it but the majority is brainwashed by the consumerism and can't think of anything else.

If you want quality, you must pay for that. Which retoucher will retouch in this way at this price? I don't.
What about you? Is there any reason which you will do that?

Well, I keep repeating to so many people requesting nonsense:

Pricing per image is not high end retouching, it's budget retouching. Discount means someone has already overpriced you and is trying to sell you his own "estimated business risk", read: his time during which he has no work.

If you limit the retouching process either by the time spent on image or by the dollar - it obviously means you have already limited quality too (or you are always charging for the most expensive case which is just as crazy). When the quality is the only goal, there should be no other factors restricting it. That's why I charge by the hour as each image has its own idiosyncrasies. I think it is a big lie to charge by the image. That means you are putting all images under same common denominator and retouching for you is more or less a mechanical blindfolded conveyor belt work.

And it's worth noting too: beginner models on this site charge $50-100/h and photographers gladly pay for this but complain that retouching is expensive. Quite silly but an actual fact.

Well, I keep repeating to so many people requesting nonsense:

Pricing per image is not high end retouching, it's budget retouching. Discount means someone has already overpriced you and is trying to sell you his own "estimated business risk", read: his time during which he has no work.

If you limit the retouching process either by the time spent on image or by the dollar - it obviously means you have already limited quality too (or you are always charging for the most expensive case which is just as crazy). When the quality is the only goal, there should be no other factors restricting it. That's why I charge by the hour as each image has its own idiosyncrasies. I think it is a big lie to charge by the image. That means you are putting all images under same common denominator and retouching for you is more or less a mechanical blindfolded conveyor belt work.

And it's worth noting too: beginner models on this site charge $50-100/h and photographers gladly pay for this but complain that retouching is expensive. Quite silly but an actual fact.

Yeah, I understand.

But if you have a big project, where the main activity is the hair and you want to spend for retouching it $6 per image (not per hour or something else) isn't an insult to retouchers?

I understand that sometimes you cannot spend a lot of money, but when you say "We never paid more than that"... I think that this say all...

Oana Telegredean wrote:
But if you have a big project, where the main activity is the hair and you want to spend for retouching it $6 per image (not per hour or something else) isn't an insult to retouchers?

Recently I was in contact with someone who was communicating with me through someone else. That mid-man (or rather woman) said that the photographer "is also a high end retoucher and can do any image in 1 hour for $15". The project was hair.

Considering that for complex cases hair may take 6-8h or more to make it and they were shocked when I said 2 hours for their samples - I would rather say it is ignorance, not necessarily insult.

I understand that sometimes you cannot spend a lot of money, but when you say "We never paid more than that"... I think that this say all...

Not everyone buys Rolls Royce but the company still sells cars.

Unfortunately due to those many people offering $6 for mediocre service there is this mindset that retouching is some cheap nonsensical work that should be disrespected by all means.

Kami Fore  wrote:
These photographers suck obviously. Why do you keep working for them? Your last thread was similar to this one. Not an accusation, just an observation.

I would neverrrrrrrrrrrrr work with someone like that. Lmao. HELL no. Always aim higher. These people don't go anywhere.

You just gotta put in work for that $$$ and those awesome photogs that'll pay you much more. That's all

I don't work with them, especially at this ridiculous price Just a situation. I did a test for a photographer and I said my price at final. And he didn't want pay more $6, because he never paid more than that. That's why I was curious about another retoucher's experience.

My last thread was about working for magazines

anchev wrote:
Publish your prices and you won't get $6 requests.
Don't agree on free tests and you won't waste time in discussions that don't give you work.

It is that simple.

Yes this can be one of solutions, I agree.

I will also give some advice for young retouchers , maybe it can be helpful for all of them.

You  have to understand that photography/retouching business is like any other business.
Very often great retouching skills are not enough to get the job, you have to know how to market yourself ,to attract better clients and how to negotiate, very often these skills are more important than retouching skills.
It is a problem in any business, that's why I wrote above that photography/retouching business is like any other business , there is no difference.

The most important thing is to know how to filter your potential clients, especially when you work with individuals.
With professional commercial clients things are much different , they know the value of retouching and they want to pay.

For example you can make some kind of "order form pages" where you can send potential clients to fill the forms.
Their names, files, web pages, contact emails and the most important thing their budget , these fields have to be mandatory.
On that way you can see better profiles of your potential clients , you can visit their web sites and you can read their budget what they wrote in budget field.

You will be able to filter immediately your potential client.

If your potential client doesn't have any kind of professional work for professional commercial clients on web site and at the same time he wrote in your order form field budget with $5 per file , you will know immediately everything about your potential client, that your client is not in business.
I don't say this is a rule , but 90% is like that.
If your potential client has some work for professional clients and at the same time he wrote his budget with fair rates for you and  him , that means you can discuss with potential client about rates and everything else.

Potential client who has ever worked any kind of professional photography for professional clients knows that professional retouching is not $5 per file .
Any serious client knows that for serious retouching you have to spend hours or days of very skilled work , it depends on projects.
Serious client knows that for top beauty retouching you have to spend 3-8 hours of work or for composite retouching from 4-24 hours of work or for CGI projects from seven days up to one month,even more , again it depends on project, how big is project.

People who are not in professional photo business think that retoucher just move sliders around , lil bit left and lil bit right to make miracles and for couple of "movements" in their minds they offer $5 , these clients are not your clients.

With some kind of order forms your problems with $5 questions for retouching will be solved.
On that way you will filter potential customers and you will decide which clients you want to accept or not.

Do not send a lot of offers to potential clients, if you decide to send offer be sure that your potential client is in serious business.
Avoid any free test samples , in 95% cases free test samples will not bring you job.
If your potential customer can not see if you are right fit for him after visiting of your web site, he won't know that even after free test sample.
Do not show any weakness to potential client , remember one thing,  it is your job, you are the boss in your job, you tell your rates and if potential client don't want to accept your rates, leave him to go.

Always be polite and always be  professional with clients.

Best of luck

ST Retouch wrote:

Yes this can be one of solutions, I agree.

I will also give some advice for young retouchers , maybe it can be helpful for all of them.

You  have to understand that photography/retouching business is like any other business.
Very often great retouching skills are not enough to get the job, you have to know how to market yourself ,to attract better clients and how to negotiate, very often these skills are more important than retouching skills.
It is a problem in any business, that's why I wrote above that photography/retouching business is like any other business , there is no difference.

The most important thing is to know how to filter your potential clients, especially when you work with individuals.
With professional commercial clients things are much different , they know the value of retouching and they want to pay.

For example you can make some kind of "order form pages" where you can send potential clients to fill the forms.
Their names, files, web pages, contact emails and the most important thing their budget , these fields have to be mandatory.
On that way you can see better profiles of your potential clients , you can visit their web sites and you can read their budget what they wrote in budget field.

You will be able to filter immediately your potential client.

If your potential client doesn't have any kind of professional work for professional commercial clients on web site and at the same time he wrote in your order form field budget with $5 per file , you will know immediately everything about your potential client, that your client is not in business.
I don't say this is a rule , but 90% is like that.
If your potential client has some work for professional clients and at the same time he wrote his budget with fair rates for you and  him , that means you can discuss with potential client about rates and everything else.

Potential client who has ever worked any kind of professional photography for professional clients knows that professional retouching is not $5 per file .
Any serious client knows that for serious retouching you have to spend hours or days of very skilled work , it depends on projects.
Serious client knows that for top beauty retouching you have to spend 3-8 hours of work or for composite retouching from 4-24 hours of work or for CGI projects from seven days up to one month,even more , again it depends on project, how big is project.

People who are not in professional photo business think that retoucher just move sliders around , lil bit left and lil bit right to make miracles and for couple of "movements" in their minds they offer $5 , these clients are not your clients.

With some kind of order forms your problems with $5 questions for retouching will be solved.
On that way you will filter potential customers and you will decide which clients you want to accept or not.

Do not send a lot of offers to potential clients, if you decide to send offer be sure that your potential client is in serious business.
Avoid any free test samples , in 95% cases free test samples will not bring you job.
If your potential customer can not see if you are right fit for him after visiting of your web site, he won't know that even after free test sample.
Do not show any weakness to potential client , remember one thing,  it is your job, you are the boss in your job, you tell your rates and if potential client don't want to accept your rates, leave him to go.

Always be polite and always be  professional with clients.

Best of luck

Wow, thank you so much for this long advice. Much appreciate it! I understand and I totally agree with what you say. Thank you!

anchev wrote:
Recently I was in contact with someone who was communicating with me through someone else. That mid-man (or rather woman) said that the photographer "is also a high end retoucher and can do any image in 1 hour for $15". The project was hair.

Considering that for complex cases hair may take 6-8h or more to make it and they were shocked when I said 2 hours for their samples - I would rather say it is ignorance, not necessarily insult.
Not everyone buys Rolls Royce but the company still sells cars.

Unfortunately due to those many people offering $6 for mediocre service there is this mindset that retouching is some cheap nonsensical work that should be disrespected by all means.

Thank you for your answers! I agree!.

ST Retouch wrote:
For example you can make some kind of "order form pages" where you can send potential clients to fill the forms.

That has its pros and cons and it's not an universal solution.

If I want to get in touch with someone and discuss my particular shoot, I definitely won't be happy to be told "Please fill in this form". I would rather expect a human reply and see that I am communicating with someone who is attentive not only to skin pores but also to people.

Forms make sense if you get hundreds and thousands of requests which is unlikely to be the case. So perhaps it is not recommended for a freelance individual.

Avoid any free test samples , in 95% cases free test samples will not bring you job.
If your potential customer can not see if you are right fit for him after visiting of your web site, he won't know that even after free test sample.

Absolutely true.

When I registered my retoucher profile on MM I made the mistake to do 2-3 free tests out of courtesy. Never again. It's waste of time and when the person on the other side of the wire brags "I have some great shots from a medium format camera" it hardly makes sense to do free work for someone who can obviously afford a 40k EUR equipment. And they really like to send those most challenging samples with the most terrible skin, hair and all the rest of it.

I also provide full size before/after sample for download + additional upon request. Any professional should be able to evaluate the quality of retouching work from that. If he cannot it simply means he does not have the qualification to evaluate any further work at all. So why waste time?

Recently I got this request from a *model* here on MM. She wanted me to do a test. I said that was possible but kindly asked who is going to evaluate the result of the test. And communication ended.

The other aspect of these "tests" is that the very question "Can you do a test for me?" is quite an impolite and even arrogant one. It directly says "Your portfolio and years of professional work mean nothing to me, so I know better than you, you should start from scratch to prove yourself to me". Would you really like to work for such a person?

And let's not forget the other form of free work called "collaboration". I have been getting these proposals of sharing % of publication sales etc. It is always good to remind people that % of zero is still zero and risk sharing is not the business of a retoucher because time and eyes spent cannot be raffled off.

People who are not in professional photo business think that retoucher just move sliders around

Unfortunately that is the common misunderstanding. For that we have to thank all the Photoshop users that call themselves retouchers. But if you think - it is not much different with photographers, models etc. In every sphere the good ones are 2-3% of the mass.

ST Retouch wrote:
For example you can make some kind of "order form pages" where you can send potential clients to fill the forms.
Their names, files, web pages, contact emails and the most important thing their budget , these fields have to be mandatory

Do this and you will get zero clients.. people don't have the time to fill out any forms for you!!

Everything is more simple.. If you get clients that are only willing to pay $6 per image, you are doing something wrong, probably you are contacting the wrong clients (amateurs) or your work is not good enough but at the same time, professional clients (big brands/magazines) aren't looking for a cheap retoucher nor for a crazy expensive either. In 10 years of retouching I have never had a challenge with my rates, they either accept them or they don't. If they don't is up to me to adjust them to a fair point.

People you are over complicating things!

ST Retouch wrote:
People who are not in professional photo business think that retoucher just move sliders around

Again simply not true.. amateurs might think that!! Professionals know how much time/work an image needs and how much it costs!!

Don't confuse amateur with professionals, to me a professional is that person that has worked for stablished brands/magazines and has a decent reputation not someone that just takes pictures for a living and hoping to get them publish in a local magazine that no body reads.

People if you are confident about your work, think big, don't think local and amateur.

My first ever job was for a UK girl band that had a few number ones on the charts. Why because I made sure that i didn't contact the local photographers, I contacted those who I loved their work and knew they were already stablished publishing constantly on big magazines brands.

Think BIG!!

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Again simply not true.. amateurs might think that!! Professionals know how much time/work an image needs and how much it costs!!

Don't confuse amateur with professionals, to me a professional is that person that has worked for stablished brands/magazines and has a decent reputation not someone that just takes pictures for a living and hoping to get them publish in a local magazine that no body reads.

People if you are confident about your work, think big, don't think local and amateur.

My first ever job was for a UK girl band that had a few number ones on the charts. Why because I made sure that i didn't contact the local photographers, I contacted those who I loved their work and knew they were already stablished publishing constantly on big magazines brands.

Think BIG!!

Probably you didn't understand my post.
Read again what I wrote.

I wrote people who are not in professional photo business might think that, I didn't write that professionals might think that.

The Invisible Touch wrote:

Do this and you will get zero clients.. people don't have the time to fill out any forms for you!!

Everything is more simple.. If you get clients that are only willing to pay $6 per image, you are doing something wrong, probably you are contacting the wrong clients (amateurs) or your work is not good enough but at the same time, professional clients (big brands/magazines) aren't looking for a cheap retoucher nor for a crazy expensive either. In 10 years of retouching I have never had a challenge with my rates, they either accept them or they don't. If they don't is up to me to adjust them to a fair point.

People you are over complicating things!

Why you think that you will get zero clients ?

Imagine for example that your web site has a very good rank on Google with  a lot of unique hits from potential clients worldwide and that you receive at least 200-300 emails/request per month .
Do you think that between these 200 emails you won't get emails with $5 for retouching?
You think that all 200-300 emails will be from top professional clients who know the value of retouching ?

Or imagine to make serious marketing campaign on Google with Ad Words when you receive much more than these 300 emails per month?
You think that you can control emails and who is going to send you inquires?

In my main post I have just wrote one of solutions how you can filter customers.
I didn't say that that solution is a must or that is a rule.

And if you think or you know that some kind of order forms don't work for you, it doesn't mean that order forms don't work for others.

ST Retouch wrote:
Why you think that you will get zero clients ?

Imagine for example that your web site has a very good rank on Google with  a lot of unique hits from potential clients worldwide and that you receive at least 200-300 emails/request per month .
Do you think that between these 200 emails you won't get emails with $5 for retouching?
You think that all 200-300 emails will be from top professional clients who know the value of retouching ?

Or imagine to make serious marketing campaign on Google with Ad Words when you receive much more than these 300 emails per month?
You think that you can control emails and who is going to send you inquires?

In my main post I have just wrote one of solutions how you can filter customers.
I didn't say that that solution is a must or that is a rule.

And if you think or you know that some kind of order forms don't work for you, it doesn't mean that order forms don't work for others.

If you are receiving 200 emails a month and you are not making a huge salary, you are doing something wrong therefore no need to send a "Form" just pick who you would like to work with. It's as simple as that! If you are in the other hand receiving 200 emails from potential clients asking you to retouch for $5 per image, then your work isn't good enough.

You are missing the point.. no one is saying apart from you that retouchers receive 200 emails a month.. the OP is saying why are people only willing to pay $5 per image... your answer about "Forms" isn't a solution it is just another amateur way of not getting clients, the same goes for Google ads and things like that. If you like to make it as a retoucher you should simplify your ways and make sure your work is really good and from there email those photographers you like. Stop over clomplicating things

The Invisible Touch wrote:
If you get clients that are only willing to pay $6 per image, you are doing something wrong, probably you are contacting the wrong clients (amateurs) or your work is not good enough but at the same time, professional clients (big brands/magazines) aren't looking for a cheap retoucher nor for a crazy expensive either. In 10 years of retouching I have never had a challenge with my rates, they either accept them or they don't. If they don't is up to me to adjust them to a fair point.
People you are over complicating things!

Not all the wrong clients are amateurs....
He isn't an amateur photographer. As long as his main activity is to photograph the models with long/short hair (more hairstyling) and his work is published in many magazines, etc....

He had some photos for retouching. He wanted from me to do a test because I don't have many photos with hair retouching in my portfolio. So in this case I did a tes and after that he asked me for the price. I gave the price and.... from where I could know that he want to pay only $6 per image for this type of retouching?

First of all, for me is important the client's portfolio. If the portfolio is like an amateur I don't contact them.

So where am I wrong?

Oana Telegredean wrote:
He had some photos for retouching. He wanted from me to do a test because I don't have many photos with hair retouching in my portfolio. So in this case I did a test. He liked it and asked me for the price. I gave the price and.... from where I could know that he want to pay only $6 per image for this type of retouching?

First of all, for me is important the client's portfolio. If the portfolio is like an amateur I don't contact them.

So where am I wrong?

I had to learn this too - but you basically have to become better at recognizing who's actually 'established' as a client, especially ones that 'seem' high end / notable. I've had a few situations where I thought certain people were b/c I didn't have a developed eye for it (meaning actually seeing if they're in Numero/L'Officiel, work with L'Oreal, shit like that), and after being screwed over by these people, I learned to recognize if they weren't shit from the jump.

The problem here is that you weren't good at determining if this person was a good client to start out with.

Doesn't matter if they have stuff that looks a certain way or if they've made claims they've been in x-magazine or whatever. Is their stuff UP TO DATE? Are they getting big jobs NOW from people? Or are they  just relying on older work w/ no new signs of good stuff coming in? If they aren't working with established things, as in things that actually have big brand names attached to them...regularly..then don't work with them.

Also those magazines you're saying he's worked for had to have been big ones. What magazines did he say / his profile say he was in?

Oana Telegredean wrote:
Not all the wrong clients are amateurs....
He isn't an amateur photographer. As long as his main activity is to photograph the models with long/short hair (more hairstyling) and his work is published in many magazines, etc....

He had some photos for retouching. He wanted from me to do a test because I don't have many photos with hair retouching in my portfolio. So in this case I did a tes and after that he asked me for the price. I gave the price and.... from where I could know that he want to pay only $6 per image for this type of retouching?

First of all, for me is important the client's portfolio. If the portfolio is like an amateur I don't contact them.

So where am I wrong?

Based on your explanation which you wrote , I understood  that you accepted free test sample without to tell your potential client upfront your rates  ?
Am I right?

If I understood you correctly , from my point of view it was a huge mistake.

You accepted free test sample , you didn't tell your  rates upfront and on that way you showed some kind of weakness to potential client.

Always tell upfront your rates, immediately , don't be shy, never.
If client doesn't want to accept your rates, why to go further with free test samples.

With free test samples and waiting on rates , you leave your potential client to be "the boss" in negotiation.
You are the boss when you receive inquires/emails  for job from client, when client contact you.
You are the boss in your business and in negotiation.

Best of luck

Kami Fore  wrote:
Also those magazines you're saying he's worked for had to have been big ones. What magazines did he say / his profile say he was in?

Estetica, inspiRHation, Take, Top Hair, Esthéticienne, etc.. So... hair magazines...

ST Retouch wrote:
Based on your explanation which you wrote , I understood  that you accepted free test sample without to tell your potential client upfront your rates  ?
Am I right?

If I understood you correctly , from my point of view it was a huge mistake.

You accepted free test sample , you didn't tell your  rates upfront and on that way you showed some kind of weakness to potential client.

Always tell upfront your rates, immediately , don't be shy, never.
If client doesn't want to accept your rates, why to go further with free test samples.

With free test samples and waiting on rates , you leave your potential client to be "the boss" in negotiation.
You are the boss when you receive inquires/emails  for job from client, when client contact you.
You are the boss in your business and in negotiation.

Best of luck

Yes, you understood ok. I didn't give an exact price, because each image is unique... And because of that, I did the test image and based on time of work I gave the final price.

Oana Telegredean wrote:
So where am I wrong?

You aren't wrong Oana, but we have all been at that stage at some point that they want you to work for nothing almost.. you have to learn that it is your choice to either take it or not. Don't focus all your energy on those kind of clients.. Think BIG!!

Oana Telegredean wrote:
Estetica, inspiRHation, Take, Top Hair, Esthéticienne, etc.. So... hair magazines...

None of those are good / big / notable hair magazines. Googled them. They either have small followings or things that aren't really googleable b/c they don't have any social media presence.

So the guy was an amateur basically. You have to google the work. If you haven't even heard of it / or the mag doesn't at least have 20,000 likes on FB or has a staggeirng web presence within a niche, it's not good.

Also just listen to TheInvisibleTouch. Guy's worked with L'Oreal. Haha.

He knows what he's talking about. "THINK BIG" always ~

Kami Fore  wrote:
None of those are good / big / notable hair magazines. Googled them. They either have small followings or things that aren't really googleable b/c they don't have any social media presence.

So the guy was an amateur basically. You have to google the work. If you haven't even heard of it / or the mag doesn't at least have 20,000 likes on FB or has a staggeirng web presence within a niche, it's not good.

Also just listen to TheInvisibleTouch. Guy's worked with L'Oreal. Haha.

He knows what he's talking about. "THINK BIG" always ~

My mistake . I didn't know that. I haven't the opportinuty to work with big magazines, so... To achieve that you must have a strong portfolio and skills.

Thank you for your advices!

The Invisible Touch wrote:

You aren't wrong Oana, but we have all been at that stage at some point that they want you to work for nothing almost.. you have to learn that it is your choice to either take it or not. Don't focus all your energy on those kind of clients.. Think BIG!!

Thank you for your advice. I agree with what you say. But first of all, at beginning you don't need to build a strong portfolio? Even if sometimes you must work for free, for example.
I know that there are photographers which make submissions to big magazines, like Vogue, etc. And sometimes they have a retoucher which retouch few images for free and let them to use these images in their portfolio....

Oana Telegredean wrote:
But first of all, at beginning you don't need to build a strong portfolio? Even if sometimes you must work for free, for example.

Yes of course you do, what I see in yours at the moment and this is not me getting on at you, just trying to help.. your portfolio is full of MM images and your website some images shouldn't be there because aren't good enough, what you have in your website should be the best of the best you have produced as at the end of the day, that's what clients are going to see!!

I would suggest to do more research on potential non amateur clients and also re work on your website before you contact clients. Also, what i did when I was at your stage, I contacted millions of potential clients offering a free test.. just one image!

I am sending you a PM.

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Yes of course you do, what I see in yours at the moment and this is not me getting on at you, just trying to help.. your portfolio is full of MM images and your website some images shouldn't be there because aren't good enough, what you have in your website should be the best of the best you have produced as at the end of the day, that's what clients are going to see!!

I would suggest to do more research on potential non amateur clients and also re work on your website before you contact clients. Also, what i did when I was at your stage, I contacted millions of potential clients offering a free test.. just one image!
.

I understand. I know that my photos aren't so good. But I have a question: do you mean by the photographer's photos or my retouching skills? I want to know if that I'm in a wrong direction with my retouching skills...

Oana Telegredean wrote:
I understand. I know that my photos aren't so good. But I have a question: do you mean by the photographer's photos or my retouching skills? I want to know if that I'm in a wrong direction with my retouching skills...

Your retouching is good in some images but you should get rid off some others as they look really amateurish and also get rid of any images that are free to retouch in MM as they are everywhere.

A mistake that I see all the time in new retouchers is that we only focus on perfect skin and beauty work but when it comes down to fashion/editorial/lookbook/etc you can see a lot of mistakes as we don't understand the difference between fashion/beauty/editorial/whatever..  If I were you, I would redo my website from scratch and from there focus a lot on other genres.. trust me i don't do a lot of beauty images! :-)

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Also based on your website, I would get rid off the before/after section, glamour, cut outs and only focus on fashion beauty or whatever you feel you like to work, but don't try to show all of it in one website as it is irrelevant to most clients. Don't need to have the references either as it almost looks like you are trying to prove yourself.

I will have a look at your images and will tell you in PM what to get rid off if you are ok with that.

J

I'm ok with that, thank you! A constructive critique is welcome.

The Invisible Touch wrote:

Your retouching is good in some images but you should get rid off some others as they look really amateurish and also get rid of any images that are free to retouch in MM as they are everywhere.

A mistake that I see all the time in new retouchers is that we only focus on perfect skin and beauty work but when it comes down to fashion/editorial/lookbook/etc you can see a lot of mistakes as we don't understand the difference between fashion/beauty/editorial/whatever..  If I were you, I would redo my website from scratch and from there focus a lot on other genres.. trust me i don't do a lot of beauty images! :-)

About images from MM, if you don't have many photos from out of MM, I think that to practice your skills, few images from MM are ok. Which are the best, I think.

And when you will grow up in your own business, then you can delete these images.

Oana Telegredean wrote:
About images from MM, if you don't have many photos from out of MM, I think that to practice your skills, few images from MM are ok. Which are the best, I think.

And when you will grow up in your own business, then you can delete these images.

Yes but then the only clients you are atracting are those who pay $6 per image.

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Yes but then the only clients you are atracting are those who pay $6 per image.

Yeah... you're right! Always is something to learn. Thank you!

The Invisible Touch wrote:
If you are receiving 200 emails a month and you are not making a huge salary, you are doing something wrong therefore no need to send a "Form" just pick who you would like to work with. It's as simple as that! If you are in the other hand receiving 200 emails from potential clients asking you to retouch for $5 per image, then your work isn't good enough.

You are missing the point.. no one is saying apart from you that retouchers receive 200 emails a month.. the OP is saying why are people only willing to pay $5 per image... your answer about "Forms" isn't a solution it is just another amateur way of not getting clients, the same goes for Google ads and things like that. If you like to make it as a retoucher you should simplify your ways and make sure your work is really good and from there email those photographers you like. Stop over clomplicating things

I am really curios to hear your explanation why "forms" are just another amateur way of not getting clients ?
How you know that and how are you sure that you know everything in business and  to call everything around amateurish?

Do you have studio/agency or you are just a freelance retoucher ?

Do you know how many established agencies ( even professional freelance retouchers from real business ) use marketing campaigns with Google Ads?
Are you sure that you know business better than them and are you sure that these established agencies are "amateurish" like you say because they use marketing campaigns ?

ST Retouch wrote:
I am really curios to hear your explanation why "forms" are just another amateur way of not getting clients ?
How you know that and how are you sure that you know everything in business and  to call everything around amateurish?

Good questions indeed. This attitude obviously keeps repeating across threads regardless of previous mod warnings.

ST Retouch wrote:
I am really curios to hear your explanation why "forms" are just another amateur way of not getting clients ?

Why don't you try it and post the result here in MM!! That will answer your question.

ST Retouch wrote:
How you know that and how are you sure that you know everything in business and  to call everything around amateurish?

It is common sense that potential clients have better things to do than fill a form from a retoucher they have never work with and never heard off.. that is amateurish, the sooner you realised that the sooner you will progress.

ST Retouch wrote:
Do you have studio/agency or you are just a freelance retoucher ?

Freelance

ST Retouch wrote:
Do you know how many established agencies ( even professional freelance retouchers from real business ) use marketing campaigns with Google Ads?

Same as above.. if your work is not sufficient to provide you with clients (not you personally)  and you need to do google ads, you are doing something wrong, is just as simple as that. I know really good retouchers and non we do ADS.

ST Retouch wrote:
Are you sure that you know business better than them and are you sure that these established agencies are "amateurish" like you say because they use marketing campaigns ?

I have never said I know anything better than you but I am just debating your comments about that "Form"  you suggested.

Hope this answers your questions :-)

anchev wrote:
Good questions indeed. This attitude obviously keeps repeating across threads regardless of previous mod warnings.

What attitude mate? Have I attacked personally anyone? We are just debating and having a chat here that's all. Keep your non sense to yourself please! :-)

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Why don't you try it and post the result here in MM!! That will answer your question.

But how you know that I didn't try that and how you know better than me what works for me and if I am successful or not with that?

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Same as above.. if your work is not sufficient to provide you with clients (not you personally)  and you need to do google ads, you are doing something wrong, is just as simple as that. I know really good retouchers and non we do ADS.

How you know about which market and clients I am talking about with Ads and using of Ads?
How you know as a freelance guy what works on different markets  for agencies, studios,companies why they don't need to use Ads and why Ads are wrong or why agencies, studios, companies, professional clients , even professional freelance retouchers from real commercial market are doing something wrong in business when they use Ads?

I am really curios to hear that from you.

ST Retouch wrote:
But how you know that I didn't try that and how you know better than me what works for me and if I am successful or not with that?

Because I have 10 years of experience and I know some really respectable retouchers that have never used your approach.. this is the first time I heard it and in my opinion based on the interaction with my clients and my experience I can tell you that is simply not going to work.

ST Retouch wrote:
How you know about which market and clients I am talking about with Ads and using of Ads?
How you know as a freelance guy what works on different markets  for agencies, studios,companies why they don't need to use Ads and why Ads are wrong or why agencies, studios, companies, professional clients , even professional freelance retouchers from real commercial market are doing something wrong in business when they use Ads?

Those who need to advertise with google ads is due to the fact that aren't getting enough clients. A professional/big client has request so frequently that they don't need to and to me it cheapens your work as you come accross a bit desperate... "Hey this is me, I exist and I don't have a lot of work" that's what reads to me.

Show me please big/professional photographers/retouchers using google ads.. lets analyse them! :-)