Retoucher
Oana T
Posts: 220
Deva, Hunedoara, Romania
Hello folks, I'm curious about the retouchers who retouch for the magazines like Vogue, Voir, Elegant, Elle, etc . How is to retouch for these brands? And of course, there is a different retouching style. Must have a strong skills. I know that there are retouchers who retouch few images for free which are submitted by photographers for publication. But I'm wondering how many retouchers are paid for this? I know that is great to have a strong portfolio. But how many photographers/brands are able to paid for your work? And usually what are your rates for this type of retouching, purpose, etc? For example, if you must retouch for high end fashion and the photographer tell you that he/she cannot pay more than $10 per image, how is that for you? As you cannot use those images in your portfolio or anywhere. Thank you! 
Retoucher
solaris
Posts: 49
Bijeljina, Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina
I don't think that anyone who retouches photos for those magazines is going to be paid only 10$ per image.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
T Oana wrote:
Hello folks,
I'm curious about the retouchers who retouch for the magazines like Vogue, Voir, Elegant, Elle, etc . How is to retouch for these brands? And of course, there is a different retouching style. Must have a strong skills.
I know that there are retouchers who retouch few images for free which are submitted by photographers for publication. But I'm wondering how many retouchers are paid for this? I know that is great to have a strong portfolio. But how many photographers/brands are able to paid for your work?
And usually what are your rates for this type of retouching, purpose, etc? For example, if you must retouch for high end fashion and the photographer tell you that he/she cannot pay more than $10 per image, how is that for you? As you cannot use those images in your portfolio or anywhere.
Thank you! I've researched this entire section of this forum thoroughly and studied the advice/experiences of at least 20ish major retouchers here that made it 'big' - Nienna Buskilla, Natalia Taffarel, Omar Josef, Sandra O, Mark Lanega, Krunov Shifter, Lulie Lens, Solstice Retouch, etc, and it's realllllly simple. I also strongly recommend..like as in you have to do this...to go to Natalia's facebook and look at her notes. She has a bunch of free freelancer advice she gives out. Also join her group, "High End Commercial and Editorial Post Production" for no bs critique/advice about your work and the nature of the industry. It's great.
Anyway~
Natalia literally said this in that group in January and it applies to this conversation which I'll condense -
natalia taffarel wrote:
[Context - Conversation was about a retoucher who was a catalyst for the idea that we're undervalued/not paid enough]
"I´m not worried about her giving away her work for little money because she evidently LACKS in something else, could be marketing herself, could be people´s skills, could be consistency. What ever... The point is she still has something to overcome in order to make it and she NEEDS to charge little to actually get there.
I´m not worried she will take my clients, because clients with important jobs need A LOT MORE than skills, they need to know I will deliver in time and forma, they won´t have any suprices, they can count on me for corrections, I will understand their directions, and solve their every problem, satisfy their every need." Basically it isn't just about 'skill' that gets you those big paid jobs. It's about calibrating your head to think like a freelancer, studying the market in this industry you want to get into, learning the basics of art, and basically being a good businessman and team player.
According to Natalia/Omar, editorial (fashion stories) can net you around $500 for a story/spread, then high end commercial beauty for big campaigns (L'Oreal / Lancome, etc), starts at $1000 per image [low end of commercial] and goes up from there. Then there are also some retouchers (bstdesign) who have experience working in NYC as freelancers in studios/have those connections who charge $200 an hour or more or around there, netting them between $50,000 - $100,000 per year, depending on their level, esp. in a studio.
..She also recommended to not compare yourself to what other retouchers are charging [her note on 'pricing' for retouchers covers this on fb], because ultimately your circumstances will not be the same as theirs. So it isn't about trying to 'match' their price points. It's about getting yourself to that level in every other way.
Don't just look at price. Look at what you're OFFERING people as a service.
> is your portfolio competitive? / i.e. - are you constantly updating it? / constantly trying to be better?
> do you know color theory / semiotics (look up: color semiotics) - basically "can you see color / can you convey an idea?"
> can you deliver in time and form / maintain deadlines?
> can you take direction / match references?
> do you have a good attitude? are you a team player?
The people that this thread was in reference to can answer the other questions, since that's for them, but I wanted to cover the notion that it's just based on 'skill' because making it in this business just ain't about skill. It's about alllll of these things.
But I can tell you right now that they don't charge $10 per image. If you're having trouble finding clients who don't want to pay that, then you need to evaluate your service as a whole (esp your portfolio) and match it with the people you want to work for. Always aim higher.
"Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." - Natalia
Retoucher
Oana T
Posts: 220
Deva, Hunedoara, Romania
Kami Fore wrote:
I've researched this entire section of this forum thoroughly and studied the advice/experiences of at least 20ish major retouchers here that made it 'big' - Nienna Buskilla, Natalia Taffarel, Omar Josef, Sandra O, Mark Lanega, Krunov Shifter, Lulie Lens, Solstice Retouch, etc, and it's realllllly simple. I also strongly recommend..like as in you have to do this...to go to Natalia's facebook and look at her notes. She has a bunch of free freelancer advice she gives out. Also join her group, "High End Commercial and Editorial Post Production" for no bs critique/advice about your work and the nature of the industry. It's great.
Anyway~
Natalia literally said this in that group in January and it applies to this conversation which I'll condense -
Basically it isn't just about 'skill' that gets you those big paid jobs. It's about calibrating your head to think like a freelancer, studying the market in this industry you want to get into, learning the basics of art, and basically being a good businessman and team player.
According to Natalia/Omar, editorial (fashion stories) can net you around $500 for a story/spread, then high end commercial beauty for big campaigns (L'Oreal / Lancome, etc), starts at $1000 per image [low end of commercial] and goes up from there. Then there are also some retouchers (bstdesign) who have experience working in NYC as freelancers in studios/have those connections who charge $200 an hour or more or around there, netting them between $50,000 - $100,000 per year, depending on their level, esp. in a studio.
..She also recommended to not compare yourself to what other retouchers are charging [her note on 'pricing' for retouchers covers this on fb], because ultimately your circumstances will not be the same as theirs. So it isn't about trying to 'match' their price points. It's about getting yourself to that level in every other way.
Don't just look at price. Look at what you're OFFERING people as a service.
> is your portfolio competitive? / i.e. - are you constantly updating it? / constantly trying to be better?
> do you know color theory / semiotics (look up: color semiotics) - basically "can you see color / can you convey an idea?"
> can you deliver in time and form / maintain deadlines?
> can you take direction / match references?
> do you have a good attitude? are you a team player?
The people that this thread was in reference to can answer the other questions, since that's for them, but I wanted to cover the notion that it's just based on 'skill' because making it in this business just ain't about skill. It's about alllll of these things.
But I can tell you right now that they don't charge $10 per image. If you're having trouble finding clients who don't want to pay that, then you need to evaluate your service as a whole (esp your portfolio) and match it with the people you want to work for. Always aim higher.
"Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." - Natalia Thank you for your response. I know that is not about the price. But I related a situation which was about the price and the result must be as a high end fashion (with another words: to work few hours on an image for $10 ).
Yes, I know that they don't charge $10 per image. That's why I was curious about the experience in working with photographers which submit their photos to big magazines. Because there are many (in my opinion) who not appreciate the effort of a retoucher to bring their photos at high level. Or am I wrong?
I will search her group. Thanks! 
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
T Oana wrote:
Hello folks,
I'm curious about the retouchers who retouch for the magazines like Vogue, Voir, Elegant, Elle, etc . How is to retouch for these brands? And of course, there is a different retouching style. Must have a strong skills.
I know that there are retouchers who retouch few images for free which are submitted by photographers for publication. But I'm wondering how many retouchers are paid for this? I know that is great to have a strong portfolio. But how many photographers/brands are able to paid for your work?
And usually what are your rates for this type of retouching, purpose, etc? For example, if you must retouch for high end fashion and the photographer tell you that he/she cannot pay more than $10 per image, how is that for you? As you cannot use those images in your portfolio or anywhere.
Thank you! Nice question and I will try to give you answer.
If you want to make living from retouching now and in the future you have to provide extra ordinary work and to answer on any demands from clients.
This means that unfortunately skin retouching is not enough for that game.
Magazines are not high end clients, photographers and retouchers who work that kind of job work mainly for free submissions ( with hope that someone will discover them one day ) or in the best case for couple of hundreds dollars shared between whole team ( photographer, stylist, retouchers, make up, hair artists etc ), which mean nothing, or in some case let's say for prestige .
If you as a retoucher want to work with real clients, companies, brands, Ad agencies ( where real money is ) beside skin retouching you have to be highly skilled and with other types of retouching, like composite retouching, CGI, matte painting etc.
Also if you want to work directly with brands you have to have established studio, offices, agency, team , previous strong portfolio with other high end clients.
These high end jobs are reserved for established retouching agencies, not for freelancers.
If you want to work as a freelance retoucher on the real market , it is possible if you are highly skilled and in that case you can work as a freelance retoucher for other retouching agencies , very often retouching agencies hire for special projects top high end freelance retouchers in case that their in-house retouchers are not at that level of work.
For your information you can check real industry retouching to see what level of work you have to provide if you want real job :
http://www.taylorjames.com/
http://www.saddingtonbaynes.com/home
http://www.timtadder.com/
http://www.christophehuet.com/
And many others.
These references aboves are examples of industry standard commercial retouching which you have to provide as a freelance retoucher if you want to be into the game .
Freelance retouching rates for that game and for working with retouching agencies are from $75-$150 per hour, it depends on agency, clients, projects and your skills.
And always check what real industry retouching houses and agencies provide like links which I have posted ( or many others ) , which quality they offer , do not read a lot of online posts on many pages around because very often they have nothing to do with real industry.
Hope that helps.
Best
ST
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 18096
Sacramento, California, US
let's try to clear this up just a little bit. you are lumping things together that shouldn't be together. when you talk about magazine images, there are actually three or more categories.
1. editorial illustrations - photos that tell the story of the articles, done by freelancer, editors, staff writers
2. on the street/news - regular column or industry news items, done by staff writers and regular contributors
3. advertising - purchased space for selling products, paid for by clients and ad agencies
much of the confusion is because most do not understand the magazine business. there maybe very little "magazine" hired retouching done at all, depending on the particular publication. in the first case (#1), the photographers & models are not paid huge amounts of money. most of the time we get a small fee and expenses. in the second case (#2), the images may be provided by PR firms, come from stock, or from paid staff or contributing photographers. few of these photos are sent out by most magazines for post work. the cover is the exception and could go different ways.
the last, the advertising photos, are the biggie. but they are not done by the magazine. that's where the money is.... the work done on ads is huge. there are people who specialize in the water drops of beer ads and other who work on cars, clothes & beauty. the pricing for this retouch work can be varied, but the top people have a lot more going for them than the average retoucher... the magazine publishers are not part of these jobs.
some of the editorial work can be sent out by the magazine, but some of it is also done by the people the photographer uses and they have a long working relationship with them. with most publications, i tend to use the people i know and trust that they can handle my work the right way. usually, it's not based on price, but the quality and taste that fit my style.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
Retoucher
Oana T
Posts: 220
Deva, Hunedoara, Romania
ST Retouch wrote:
Nice question and I will try to give you answer.
If you want to make living from retouching now and in the future you have to provide extra ordinary work and to answer on any demands from clients.
This means that unfortunately skin retouching is not enough for that game.
Magazines are not high end clients, photographers and retouchers who work that kind of job work mainly for free submissions ( with hope that someone will discover them one day ) or in the best case for couple of hundreds dollars shared between whole team ( photographer, stylist, retouchers, make up, hair artists etc ), which mean nothing, or in some case let's say for prestige .
If you as a retoucher want to work with real clients, companies, brands, Ad agencies ( where real money is ) beside skin retouching you have to be highly skilled and with other types of retouching, like composite retouching, CGI, matte painting etc.
Also if you want to work directly with brands you have to have established studio, offices, agency, team , previous strong portfolio with other high end clients.
These high end jobs are reserved for established retouching agencies, not for freelancers.
If you want to work as a freelance retoucher on the real market , it is possible if you are highly skilled and in that case you can work as a freelance retoucher for other retouching agencies , very often retouching agencies hire for special projects top high end freelance retouchers in case that their in-house retouchers are not at that level of work.
For your information you can check real industry retouching to see what level of work you have to provide if you want real job :
http://www.taylorjames.com/
http://www.saddingtonbaynes.com/home
http://www.timtadder.com/
http://www.christophehuet.com/
And many others.
These references aboves are examples of industry standard commercial retouching which you have to provide as a freelance retoucher if you want to be into the game .
Freelance retouching rates for that game and for working with retouching agencies are from $75-$150 per hour, it depends on agency, clients, projects and your skills.
And always check what real industry retouching houses and agencies provide like links which I have posted ( or many others ) , which quality they offer , do not read a lot of online posts on many pages around because very often they have nothing to do with real industry.
Hope that helps.
Best
ST Thank you for your opinion, I appreciate!
In the links which you provided is a high level of retouching (manipulation and so on). I haven't referred to that. I did a reference to this type of retouching (more beauty and fasion)
http://www.monicachamorro.com/
http://www.vibrantshot.com/
and so on.. But you understand what I say.
Anyway, in the industry retouching which you told about is hard to be in if you don't have a very strong skills My skills aren't like that.
Thank you for your help!
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
T Oana wrote:
Thank you for your response. I know that is not about the price. But I related a situation which was about the price and the result must be as a high end fashion (with another words: to work few hours on an image for $10 ).
Yes, I know that they don't charge $10 per image. That's why I was curious about the experience in working with photographers which submit their photos to big magazines. Because there are many (in my opinion) who not appreciate the effort of a retoucher to bring their photos at high level. Or am I wrong? Very wrong, actually (in response to your question about high end photographers not appreciating retouchers). According to Natalia and general biz related things from people doing all of that that she references constantly, high end photographers DO appreciate retouchers. Quite a lot. I know for a fact from seeing her commentary that if a photographer brings on a retoucher that gets them into those big publications, they ADORE them and they bring them onto every-thing-they-do.
See: MDF Retouching for a lot of Gavin O'Neil's work
See: Sebastian Reuter for a lot of Florian Sommet's work
See: PJK Retouching for a lot of Tamara Williams' work
See: Sandra Ojuri for a lot of Felicity Ingrams' work
Retouchers are key in this industry. There are several retouchers from MM that I've seen are exclusive to certain huge photographers/or they're the retouchers that they use the most often. For example, MDF Retouching, PJK Retouching, and Sandra Ojuri were all from MM.
They pay the retouchers well and that isn't the issue. If they ever pay them less / don't pay them at all it's because it's a test / collaboration or it's a small budget where the retoucher is willing to do it to get the credits or exposure.
It isn't a thing generally though that retouchers aren't paid (or paid little) by big photogs submitting to huge magazines though in the exploitative sense.
So if you're running around with photographers who are allegedly 'high end' that are paying you very little where they always have small budgets and it's not going anywhere, then you need to market yourself / make yourself competitive for the ones that will.
The answer is yes, these retouchers are paid well, MANY retouchers at that caliber are, and they're appreciated by their photographers/big-industry clientele. Then their rates change depending on them personally and if they're in demand, they're paid, also factoring in budget.
That's it. They're all paid and they're successful and happy. That's if they're networking / getting better over time though.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
There are no hard-and-fast rules or rates. It all depends on the type of work, the country, the photographer, whether it's in house or freelance retouching etc etc. There is relatively little money in magazine editorials. The biggest budgets are in advertising.
For example, a serious freelancer might experience a wide spectrum of rates - £0 ($0) for a test/labour of love, £50 ($70) per image for an editorial (Vogue, Elle etc), £150+ ($210+) per image for advertising. I understand there are far bigger budgets for full page ads but, as a freelancer, I've never managed to get into that market.
But making a decent living as a freelance retoucher is becoming increasingly difficult unless you are working from India or a similar economy.
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
T Oana wrote:
For example, if you must retouch for high end fashion and the photographer tell you that he/she cannot pay more than $10 per image, how is that for you? If someone approaches you with those rules... then is not high end
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
a k mac wrote:
But making a decent living as a freelance retoucher is becoming increasingly difficult unless you are working from India or a similar economy. Simply not true!! If that's your case, you are doing something wrong! You can make fortunes as a freelance retoucher regardless where you live.. I live in Spain and I won't get paid anywhere what I get paid for retouching if I was working on another field, regardless if you live in Uk or Spain.
Just one single look book for any normal brand in the UK will pay at least £20/£30 per image, if you time that for 40/60 images.. that would be a minimum of £1000 in 4 days of work. Do you think that's poor?
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Simply not true!! If that's your case, you are doing something wrong! You can make fortunes as a freelance retoucher regardless where you live.. I live in Spain and I won't get paid anywhere what I get paid for retouching if I was working on another field, regardless if you live in Uk or Spain.
Just one single look book for any normal brand in the UK will pay at least £20/£30 per image, if you time that for 40/60 images.. that would be a minimum of £1000 in 4 days of work. Do you think that's poor? The fact that you make a good living from it is evidence that you are good/successful, not that it is easy. And it doesn't contradict my opinion that it is increasingly difficult to do so. I think that it's important to point that out to the many would-be retouchers here on MM who believe they are good and are going to make a living from it.
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
Ak but why are you only talking about the people on MM, I though we were talking in general.
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
I don't know where these prices are taken from.
I have worked as a photographer (not as a retoucher) for some of the biggest commercial image agencies (think of people who make $10k+/day). Those same people pay $5-20 per image for their in house retouchers and those same brands are considered high end (whatever this means). They wanted me to teach a course to raise their retouching quality but I didn't do it.
On the other hand I have been retouching for some small to mid-size businesses for $100 per image and they never questioned it and were quite happy with the results.
More info:
I had a friend who was at a high position in Elle, a fashion editor. She told me once they were using a world known photographer. Why? Because he shoots for them free (TF) and because of his name. They actually hated his photos and his attitude but as most people in this business they were all hypocritical about their relationship. So they are all big time but they work for free and for boosting their ego.
I really don't know what people put in the phrase "high end" but I think it is nothing but a gimmick. I wouldn't advise anyone to listen to anybody and praise any names. Do what you can, do it the best way you can and always learn. Don't enslave yourself to anyone and remember rich people are rich because they take a lot, not because they give a lot.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
Dunning-Kruger is a good read!
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Ak but why are you only talking about the people on MM, I though we were talking in general. Well, this is an MM forum, and I felt it was important to say because it seems there are a lot of people on here who have unrealistic expectations. (Not to mention a few out-and-out fantasists!)
Digital Artist
Joe Diamond
Posts: 415
Bucharest, Bucharest, Romania
Even if you have amazing skills and you are among the best, if you are not building a brand of your name, none will pay that much for a no name instead of a brand. Mostly people associate quality with branding
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
Joe Diamond wrote:
Even if you have amazing skills and you are among the best, if you are not building a brand of your name, none will pay that much for a no name instead of a brand. Mostly people associate quality with branding For a freelancer it's all about the quality of your work and your relationship with your clients.
How you attract those clients in the first place is down to personal contact, testing, word of mouth, a strong portfolio, pricing, good communication etc.
How you keep them is down to how you treat them, reliability, the quality of your work, your aesthetic understanding, good value, good communication etc.
Your clients don't give a shit whether you are a "Brand" or a "No-Name". They come back to you and recommend you to others because you are good.
Photographer
Photo Lolz
Posts: 525
New York, New York, US
T Oana wrote:
Hello folks,
I'm curious about the retouchers who retouch for the magazines like Vogue, Voir, Elegant, Elle, etc . How is to retouch for these brands? And of course, there is a different retouching style. Must have a strong skills.
I know that there are retouchers who retouch few images for free which are submitted by photographers for publication. But I'm wondering how many retouchers are paid for this? I know that is great to have a strong portfolio. But how many photographers/brands are able to paid for your work?
And usually what are your rates for this type of retouching, purpose, etc? For example, if you must retouch for high end fashion and the photographer tell you that he/she cannot pay more than $10 per image, how is that for you? As you cannot use those images in your portfolio or anywhere.
Thank you! I shoot for some major magazines but also retouch for other photographers on occassion. I have several agencies that represent me and they usually negotiate rates and such. That being saud, retouching is generally by the hour, not image. If I book myself then I charge $75/ hr. If my agency books for me I generally make 60-100 per hour but they charge the client double what I get so they can make money as well.
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
a k mac wrote:
For a freelancer it's all about the quality of your work and your relationship with your clients.
How you attract those clients in the first place is down to personal contact, testing, word of mouth, a strong portfolio, pricing, good communication etc.
How you keep them is down to how you treat them, reliability, the quality of your work, your aesthetic understanding, good value, good communication etc.
Your clients don't give a shit whether you are a "Brand" or a "No-Name". They come back to you and recommend you to others because you are good. Perfectly explained!! + 1
Who cares about branding if you don't provide quality work..?
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Who cares about branding if you don't provide quality work..? Unfortunately most people are mainly concerned about branding and price rather than quality.
Otherwise this thread would not even be opened (obviously).
Note: this is not meant to be a personal remark to the OP. I am just pointing out a fact which applies not only to retouching industry but in general.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
Anchev says "Unfortunately most people are mainly concerned about branding and price rather than quality."
We're not talking about most people - we're talking about photographers and retouchers. And photographers/retouchers who don't care about or can't tell good quality from bad, and are seduced by branding into paying for inferior work are really not worth their salt.
Branding is a big deal of course, and hugely important in advertising, marketing and projection of image/status etc etc. And, yes it's true that millions of people walk down the high street feeling cool because there's a particular label on their mass-produced threads.
Some very well-off photographers use Box Studios but it's because the quality is guaranteed, or perhaps because they are looking for something very special. But it's still ultimately about quality, not branding. They are professionals, not consumers.
However, most photographers either do their own retouching or use the best retouchers they can afford. And the things that really matter are quality, price and service.
By all means try to look professional as a retoucher. You are selling a visual product, so how your website and your portfolio look are obviously crucial. But remember that the bottom line is whether you can produce the goods. That's what will bring clients back again and build you a good reputation.
I wonder why I'm bothering to say this. Surely it's fundamental common sense.
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
a k mac wrote:
Anchev says "Unfortunately most people are mainly concerned about branding and price rather than quality."
We're not talking about most people - we're talking about photographers and retouchers. Those were included in my statement. It's an indisputable fact that in any field of human knowledge or craft the people who have a sense of quality and beauty are a minority. Just think how many scientists really discover something and how many just go to the lab every day. How many Van Gogh's are there among the painters etc. Same with photography.
And photographers/retouchers who don't care about or can't tell good quality from bad, and are seduced by branding into paying for inferior work are really not worth their salt. It's not only that. I also mentioned price, not only branding. Many people just can't afford the price of the quality and that is exactly because of branding again. I remember I had a talk with our local EIZO representative many years ago, when CRT monitors were still in the game. He said something very true for that time: LCD is not more expensive as a technology but it is deliberately 2x more expensive because companies want more money. The same principle applies in all fields of life and consumer goods. Just think of the high price of certain foods and then think of the thousands of tons of food which was not sold but is thrown away. And that is again because the branding and company greed.
As for the salt not being worth it - unfortunately "in the family" relationship often overweights the skills and the quality. People tend to prefer the security of the known rather than taking a risk with someone new and that of course is a blockage for both sides.
Branding is a big deal of course, and hugely important in advertising, marketing and projection of image/status etc etc. And, yes it's true that millions of people walk down the high street feeling cool because there's a particular label on their mass-produced threads. That is so. But the problem is much bigger because by the brainwashing of advertising people actually stop thinking and start repeating mechanically. They really loose the sense of quality more and more, as they are merely used and abused as consumers, not as human beings. That's why I said above one should not care about names but about learning things for oneself and do things the best way.
However, most photographers either do their own retouching or use the best retouchers they can afford. And the things that really matter are quality, price and service. I surely don't know each and every photographer in the world but what I see everywhere is exactly the opposite. The big mass of photographers either retouch their own images (because they can't afford those crazy prices mentioned above) or hire the cheapest possible retoucher. Just look around on MM, also on other sites such as Upwork and similar and you will see - individuals and companies actually expect to receive $5 per image at most and call "high end retouching" processing of 100 images per day. I am often being asked in emails "how many images can you retouch in 1 hour" which is sheer nonsense. That's why I say that majority of people (yes, photographers) actually live with the thought that it is images per hour and their job ads say "I want super quality, you must be able to do 100 images in 1 day".
By all means try to look professional as a retoucher. You are selling a visual product, so how your website and your portfolio look are obviously crucial. I would say: don't try to look professional. Be professional. Not in the sense of professional marketing but in the sense of quality.
But remember that the bottom line is whether you can produce the goods. That's what will bring clients back again and build you a good reputation. Sadly, in the majority of cases that is wishful thinking. There are many different factors which rule the big market and unfortunately quality is valued only by a few. Just look even at MM and see how many really classy portfolios you will see out of 100 randomly chosen. 5-10 would be very optimistic.
You mention reputation. Reputation = branding. So you are actually encouraging branding which as we see can be quite destructive for all sides
I wonder why I'm bothering to say this. Surely it's fundamental common sense. I think it is good you said it. Perhaps it is also good to mention that we who understand this (hopefully) also contribute to the process of branding which works against everyone by creating good images for people who use them in the way mentioned above - to brainwash everyone possible through ads etc, to convert them into cheap consuming slaves who work for the benefit of the few and reiterate. Is it not a tragedy that beauty is brutally abused in such subtle ways?
Photographer
3 Leaves Left Imaging
Posts: 140
Hoboken, New Jersey, US
Most of that work goes to strong retouching studios. The studios can charge hundreds of dollars a hr. And it can take 20-30hrs to work on some of those images.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
Box Top Photography wrote:
Most of that work goes to strong retouching studios. The studios can charge hundreds of dollars a hr. And it can take 20-30hrs to work on some of those images. Please give examples!
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
Box Top Photography wrote:
Most of that work goes to strong retouching studios. The studios can charge hundreds of dollars a hr. And it can take 20-30hrs to work on some of those images. Do you mean that mostly "strong" studios work for big magazines?
Photographer
3 Leaves Left Imaging
Posts: 140
Hoboken, New Jersey, US
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Do you mean that mostly "strong" studios work for big magazines? I mean well established retouching studios. Of course it varies, but Annie Leibowitz used to use The Box in NY, trust me they are not cheap and yes, images can take many hrs, again it varies but a lot of those images go round after round of RT and many hrs.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
Box Top Photography wrote:
I mean well established retouching studios. Of course it varies, but Annie Leibowitz used to use The Box in NY, trust me they are not cheap and yes, images can take many hrs, again it varies but a lot of those images go round after round of RT and many hrs. Yes, but those sort of budgets are paid by the advertisers not the magazines. The original question was how much do retouchers doing magazine work get paid. Presumably that means freelance retouchers, since in-house retouchers are paid by the hour at a standard rate.
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
Box Top Photography wrote:
I mean well established retouching studios. Of course it varies, but Annie Leibowitz used to use The Box in NY, trust me they are not cheap and yes, images can take many hrs, again it varies but a lot of those images go round after round of RT and many hrs. You seem to be confusing things. 20-30h/image is not retouching - this is complex photo manipulation and compositing, often including 3D work. I happen to be a 3D artist too and I can tell you that even 3D work which is generally more expensive than merely having fun in Photoshop is not hundreds of dollars per hour.
Afaik Leibowitz is a photographer, not a retoucher and that makes things quite different. Obviously if you shoot the English queen using perhaps the most expensive equipment in the photo industry, you will not be paid $5 per image. But again that has the roots in branding at all levels. There are retouchers on MM who can do the same as A.L., maybe even more.
Photographer
3 Leaves Left Imaging
Posts: 140
Hoboken, New Jersey, US
I stand by what I say. I know for a fact that many images that are retouched for Ads are worked on for many, many hrs without the use of 3D or major compositing. You will not see Frequency Separation used or any shortcuts. The work can be labor intensive and sometimes take days. A major cosmetic AD where the body is shown can be labor intensive. And yes, I can't comment on images that a magazine might produce in house, I can only comment on Ads in magazine.
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
Box Top Photography wrote:
You will not see Frequency Separation used or any shortcuts. The work can be labor intensive and sometimes take days. A major cosmetic AD where the body is shown can be labor intensive. A skilled professional always automates his work. It obviously makes sense to hit CTRL+S instead of going to File -> Save and create actions for repetitive actions. Not sure why you assume things should be deliberately more difficult just because the work is for X, Y or Z.
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
Box Top Photography wrote:
I stand by what I say. I know for a fact that many images that are retouched for Ads are worked on for many, many hrs without the use of 3D or major compositing. You will not see Frequency Separation used or any shortcuts. The work can be labor intensive and sometimes take days. A major cosmetic AD where the body is shown can be labor intensive.
And yes, I can't comment on images that a magazine might produce in house, I can only comment on Ads in magazine. Simply not true, I work for Vogue, Elle, and all the big ones and also work for big campaigns and I am a freelance not a retouching studio. Trust me.. Major Cosmetic AD's don't take as much as you think as there is a big pre production behind it, the same goes for those big magazines. The bigger the clients the better more quality images you get plus the tendency at the moment with retouching is minimal work and lots of colour work.
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Simply not true, I work for Vogue, Elle, and all the big ones and also work for big campaigns and I am a freelance not a retouching studio. Trust me.. Major Cosmetic AD's don't take as much as you think as there is a big pre production behind it, the same goes for those big magazines. The bigger the clients the better more quality images you get plus the tendency at the moment with retouching is minimal work and lots of colour work. Can you tell us please on which big Ad campaigns you have worked as a freelance retoucher directly with brands?
I would really like to see that and files as well for these main Ad campaigns.
Thank you
Best
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Simply not true, I work for Vogue, Elle, and all the big ones and also work for big campaigns and I am a freelance not a retouching studio. Trust me.. It's interesting you can tell this in a public forum. My experience with big names/companies is they almost always require a non-disclosure agreement to be signed which forbids one to talk.
Retoucher
a k mac
Posts: 476
London, England, United Kingdom
The Invisible Touch wrote:
The bigger the clients the better more quality images you get. This is true. With top professional photographers you often don't have to touch the skin at all. The model, clothing, make up, set, props, lighting are all honed to perfection. It's amazing how good the quality of the raw files are. And very often you will get EIP files with the basic colour grading already applied. So this means the time you spend on retouching is not about fixing problems - it's about taking things to a higher level.
Something else to clarify - for editorials in the major magazines, the retoucher is hired by the photographer, not by the magazine. Some magazines pay the retouchers directly - others pay the full fee to the photographer who then pays the rest of the team. For advertising the client may sometimes communicate directly with the retoucher.
@ Anchev re. non disclosure contracts - I've never been asked. It's part of the understanding.
@ST You know very well that asking for files is just cheeky and provocative. I'm surprised that you have the audacity!
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
anchev wrote:
It's interesting you can tell this in a public forum. My experience with big names/companies is they almost always require a non-disclosure agreement to be signed which forbids one to talk. Really interesting!! I have worked for years with big brands/magazines and rarely you get a requirement of non-disclosure agreement.. I think it has happened twice in 10 years. So not sure what kind of clients you work for. My work is on facebook and personal website and my clients are happy for me to do that.
Don't take this the wrong way Anchev but i don't know where you get your information as based on your portfolio, I don't see anything that says big brands/magazines.. do you have a retouching website?
Retoucher
3869283
Posts: 1464
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria
The Invisible Touch wrote:
Really interesting!! I have worked for years with big brands/magazines and rarely you get a requirement of non-disclosure agreement.. I think it has happened twice in 10 years. So not sure what kind of clients you work for. My work is on facebook and personal website and my clients are happy for me to do that.
Don't take this the wrong way Anchev but i don't know where you get your information as based on your portfolio, I don't see anything that says big brands/magazines.. do you have a retouching website? No problem. I understand what you mean and I will tell you as we are all sharing something here.
You may consider this stupid but I don't have a portfolio website at all. I am so busy working for others (including building their websites) that I just don't have the time to make one. FWIW I am primarily a CG person and photographer, not a retoucher per se. I have just recently registered on MM as a retoucher to see if there will be any interesting opportunities.
As for the current content of my MM portfolio: those are primarily photos which were created during my days as stock photographer when I was working with fairly limited resources. There is also some content from shoots which I have made with models for non-commercial purposes, just for fun. So you will not see any high fashion and so on as I have not published any content which was covered by NDA.
To answer your question: my information is based on my own experience. Working under NDA has its pros and cons. The pros is that the particular clients who require this pay well for it. The cons is obviously the difficulty to communicate. As you also noticed quite well my portfolio does not show any of this work. I am not even allowed to talk about this content. It is a closed circle - difficult to enter, difficult to exit. Obviously this set up is not suitable if one is looking for the traditional approach: marketing through self branding and personal showcasing. But of course as long as one has work marketing is not so important.
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 862
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain
anchev wrote:
No problem. I understand what you mean and I will tell you as we are all sharing something here.
You may consider this stupid but I don't have a portfolio website at all. I am so busy working for others (including building their websites) that I just don't have the time to make one. FWIW I am primarily a CG person and photographer, not a retoucher per se. I have just recently registered on MM as a retoucher to see if there will be any interesting opportunities.
As for the current content of my MM portfolio: those are primarily photos which were created during my days as stock photographer when I was working with fairly limited resources. There is also some content from shoots which I have made with models for non-commercial purposes, just for fun. So you will not see any high fashion and so on as I have not published any content which was covered by NDA.
To answer your question: my information is based on my own experience. Working under NDA has its pros and cons. The pros is that the particular clients who require this pay well for it. The cons is obviously the difficulty to communicate. As you also noticed quite well my portfolio does not show any of this work. I am not even allowed to talk about this content. It is a closed circle - difficult to enter, difficult to exit. Obviously this set up is not suitable if one is looking for the traditional approach: marketing through self branding and personal showcasing. But of course as long as one has work marketing is not so important. Hmmmm not convincing mate. Sorry..
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