Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Do you agree to do free tests? Dо you often get a paid job after it?
I believe it's reasonable only in 2 situations:
1) you're a newbie and don't have a good portfolio yet, so a potential client is doubting
2) a potential client has a very specific image/task
In other cases it looks like someone wants to get his photo (or the whole portfolio) retouched for free.
I'm not against TF work, but I want to know about it beforehand. Just be honest! I mean, it's awful when smb plays the fool with us. They often write smth like "we're sending the same test image to all interested retouchers to find the best one (who will get a paid job)". I don't believe it's true. During the last two weeks I've participated in such "castings" several times, did free tests, but.... not a single paid job after it! Don't think I provided bad quality work, on the contrary, I used only dodge&burn non-destructive technique and spent the whole day (or at least half a day) on each test image! I doubt that any other retoucher (of those who agreed to do the test) provided the same quality. So, I can make a conclusion mentioned above - very often people want to get their images retouched for free.
To resist cheating I suggest adding watermarks on all free tests and unpaid images. You can write your name or e-mail with 30% opacity of the text layer, so that they can't remove it easily. By the way, it's better to place your watermark in the area which was the most difficult for retouching. No reason to place it somewhere in the corner or above almost unretouched area - in that case your text can be easily removed.
Another variant is to resize the image and show the potential client only a preview/crop. It can be combined with adding a watermark.
And the most reliable variant - don't do free tests! Just work on expanding your port!
It's mostly TF work (at the beginning at least) which is unpaid too, BUT:
you know about it!
you choose the images you like!
you don't have any deadlines!
you don't feel cheated!
you get only pleasure and satisfaction!
Retoucher
PJKPostproductions
Posts: 352
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
To answer your first question, yes I do agree with free testings of course and they CAN lead to paid work as you say, but that's not the way you should look at it. You should test with someone if you like the image(s) or they are getting published (more so for newbies that one) There is really no other reason why you should test realistically. I know the casting call you are referring to.. I saw it and I laughed.. I don't know why anyone would attempt that job. You said you spent lots of time on the images, well here is some advice, from your portfolio, you are over doing all your retouching which is why it is taking you so long. I also recommend you not using watermarks, its tacky and says you have no trust with your clients. I think what you need to do is practice your retouching on images that you like and want to use in your portfolio. Also I would strongly recommend you not look for your jobs on Model Mayhem solely, do some research and contact photographers you like and do tests with them 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 4810
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
You certainly have a point that there is no shortage of people who want others to work for no reward. Models, make-up artists, photographers, and retouchers all have problems with free-loaders.
However, there are often difficulties in matching skills with tasks and a work sample is often the best way to gauge each party's suitability.
For example, last year, I posted a series of images in the "Contests, Challenges, and Samples" sub-forum. They were difficult underwater images that I had already retouched, but I knew that there was more that could be extracted from them by someone who had greater skill than I do, and my aim was to make contact with such retouchers and develop a working relationship with them.
I received several hundred requests for images, mainly from retouchers with only moderate skills, but also from retouchers with impressive portfolios.
Despite a request to do so, few of the retouchers either posted their efforts in the thread or showed me privately what they had achieved. Two retouchers produced images that were about as good as I could achieve myself, but none dealt effectively with the main problems in the images.
I could give other examples as well, but the bottom line is that I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would engage a retoucher without clear proof that he/she was able to do what I needed and that proof would almost certainly be supplied by a work sample.
Digital Artist
Joe Diamond
Posts: 415
Bucharest, Bucharest, Romania
If you as retoucher/artist dont have decent skills, you definitely should work TF to learn, but unfortunately ive seen beginners who ask huge money for their low skills and they are also paid because their rates are just a little lower from professionals or they use oversaturated colors and some photographers are attracted and they dont care about quality.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Joe Diamond wrote:
If you as retoucher/artist dont have decent skills, you definitely should work TF to learn... read once again my message. I'm not against TF, but in that case I choose the images MYSELF, the images I WANT (LIKE), the images I am inspired by - not those often amateurish pics smb sends me as a test! they definitely will not be published in a magazine and won't benefit my port at all! just a waste of time! want to "test" my skills? just check my port! and you'll get the idea of my work with colors, skin, hair, etc.
why do we need a portfolio if everyone wants to get a free test?! when you go to the shop to buy food or underwear, do you ask about a free "test"? nonsense!
Digital Artist
Joe Diamond
Posts: 415
Bucharest, Bucharest, Romania
You take it personally, i didnt meant you as your work is everything but beginner, i meant in general all the beginner retouchers/artists.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
The only way to get anywhere as a retoucher, especially if you want to reach your goals, is to test for people you love. Not like, but genuinely love and appreciate the work of. Not all tests NECESSARILY lead to ongoing paid work.
Sometimes they do, but sometimes tests with good photographers gives you portfolio material that leads to paid work with other ones if you market yourself correctly. In my experience, it doesn't really matter whether you do it for the money or not - you still have to follow the same guidelines.
That guideline is that you have to view your retouching job as a career in which you form and nurture [ r e l a t i o n s h i p s ]. Ongoing paid work comes from healthy working relationships based on trust and mutual love and respect for the others' work. That's the way business in general works really regardless of what market you're in, especially if you're a freelancer.
Therefore you will get mislead, scammed, and tricked by people that see you as an asset opposed to a person they want to build a professional relationship with where those elements I've mentioned are there. Similarly, you aren't going to feel motivated to increase the quality of your portfolio if you're always running around with people who don't inspire you anyway. You wind up being trapped in a cycle.
The only way to build those healthy relationships or break that cycle is by, again, offering to test for those you'd die to work for.
- - - - -
Now for me personally, I believe in testing. The retouchers from MM with the careers I want have all said on this forum to test and through learning all of that above through trial and error, I support testing 100%. Just go for the ones you love. Not the ones you know are going to say yes to you.
Personal experience: I've offered to test for 2 photographers in the past few months that have been in Harper's Bazaar, Pop! Magazine, and one of them has photographed Beyonce in recent years for a big commercial gig. I've sent out a lot of offers for tests in general, but these two in particular are literally the only two people I've ever felt a real connection with. That connection was there because I really loved the hell out of their work and I groomed myself to make my work competitive. They both said yes to me.
So now I'm in the midst of two major projects right now for them - 1 photographer has a major project for a big, big, big cosmetics line that she personally pulled me on to because my test for her worked out really well and photographer 2's test might be featured in a huge fashion magazine if the editors like what we've done with it. One of them is paid and the other is not.
Don't run around with photographers you aren't inspired by. If you aren't going gaga over your test material or the opportunity to work with the photographer in GENERAL, then you won't go anywhere.
Again, if you need to increase the quality of your work to get those relationships, then do that. It's the most necessary thing in the world anyway.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Thanks, Kami, for such expanded reply! I like you idea.
But on the other hand let's trace the logic of a photographer. Why do they ask for tests? Because they're doubting about the result you can provide, aren't they? Why are they doubting? Because your portfolio isn't large enough & doesn't contain the pics of the same style and genre they work in. Right? So, the way out is to expand your port. How do do that? There's plenty of high quality material here on MM's forum. But you prefer "testing" with some photographers directly. It's up to you.
By the way, I'm also a freelance fashion & beauty photographer who used to collaborate with several retouchers some years ago before I started learning Photoshop myself. And you know what? I've never asked for free tests if a retoucher had a good port. Very often 3-5 images are enough to evaluate his level and make a decision. I immediately see who provides high quality, using dodge&burn, and who just blurs the skin in five minutes.
Another quite controversial point is using the "test" images in your port. If you haven't discussed it beforehand, I doubt you may use them, especially show before-after. The situation is much easier with MM's forum images - the majority of the photographers allow us to use the images in our port as we want.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
ivancoart wrote:
Thanks, Kami, for such expanded reply! I like you idea.
But on the other hand let's trace the logic of a photographer. Why do they ask for tests? Because they're doubting about the result you can provide, aren't they? Why are they doubting? Because your portfolio isn't large enough & doesn't contain the pics of the same style and genre they work in. Right? So, the way out is to expand your port. How do do that? There's plenty of high quality material here on MM's forum. But you prefer "testing" with some photographers directly. It's up to you.
By the way, I'm also a freelance fashion & beauty photographer who used to collaborate with several retouchers some years ago before I started learning Photoshop myself. And you know what? I've never asked for free tests if a retoucher had a good port. Very often 3-5 images are enough to evaluate his level and make a decision. I immediately see who provides high quality, using dodge&burn, and who just blurs the skin in five minutes.
Another quite controversial point is using the "test" images in your port. If you haven't discussed it beforehand, I doubt you may use them, especially show before-after. The situation is much easier with MM's forum images - the majority of the photographers allow us to use the images in our port as we want. Thanks! But as for your follow up, I feel as though you're a bit confused? It isn't just photographers who have retouchers that test for them. Photographers also test for their clients, MUAs do the same thing, etc. It's everyone in the industry from what I've dug up on this forum over the years. Maybe you didn't have that experience but I know from retouchers like Natalia Taffarel, Omar Josef, etc, that were here on MM that that's what it's like especially for the high end market.
For example, one of the photographers I've worked with, and I participated in this project, was sought out by Elle Magazine to be one of their exclusive photographers, and they had to TEST for them to see it'd work out well.
Even if you have a lot of commercial work for big name brands, you STILL have to test. That's ultimately how people determine how you will work with each other. It isn't just about the final result. It's about everything in between like how well you communicate, adhere to deadlines, references, etc.
You NEVER stop testing regardless of where you are in the industry. But if you feel as if it's more of a subjective thing for you because you personally didn't do that and are weary of the idea in general, that's up to you.
Because testing isn't about thinking someone isn't good enough or making them go the extra mile like it's exploitative or something. It isn't about doubting in the negative sense. It's just about seeing if you guys mesh well. I remember Natalia once used a scenario on the forum as an example of testing for a photographer where their perceptions of colors and references for themes were individually different, so it made them difficult to work with each other. So she moved on. Testing helps determine these sort of things too. Like it isn't so much about the final result, i.e. 'are you good?' vs. it being about if you're compatible in a working relationship in nuances.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Kami Fore wrote:
Testing helps determine these sort of things too. Like it isn't so much about the final result, i.e. 'are you good?' vs. it being about if you're compatible in a working relationship in nuances. This approach is really quite strange for me... sounds like choosing a wife for the rest of life!
Hey, we're speaking about retouchers, aren't we?
Does anybody go to a restaurant for free to "test" the dishes? Are photographers so poor that they can't afford paid tests? At least 1-2 images, not necessarily a series. Time is money, you know. If they just want (as you've mentioned) to check how comfortable is the process of collaboration with you, how you meet deadlines, etc. Moreover, why can't they just read the comments of your previous clients on you page/website?
I see NO reason NOT to get paid for well done job.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
ivancoart wrote:
Time is money, you know. If they just want (as you've mentioned) to check how comfortable is the process of collaboration with you, how you meet deadlines, etc. Moreover, why can't they just read the comments of your previous clients on you page/website? Because the way you've worked with those clients might be completely different from how you'll work with that particular photographer in terms of taste and compatibility. The reviews are good references to determine whether or not you're good with business but it can't determine how you and a new person will mix when your aesthetics clash.
The higher up the industry you climb, photographers that do really huge campaigns usually have one particular retoucher or one particular agency they send their work to because they trust them exclusively with their work. Those retouchers would guarantee that they'd be able to churn out that photographer's style and do it consistently. If you're in demand then you're obviously going to be discerning about who you work with. That's why the tests are necessary.
Some tests are free and some aren't. Either way you're looking at the same thing.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
OK, if I like someone's work, I can retouch smth for free to benefit both our portfolios.
Is it normal to participate in choosing of the image(s) then? or you'll retouch whatever the photographer sends? and how many images will be enough (as a free test)?
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
ivancoart wrote:
OK, if I like someone's work, I can retouch smth for free to benefit both our portfolios.
Is it normal to participate in choosing of the image(s) then? or you'll retouch whatever the photographer sends? and how many images will be enough (as a free test)? It depends on the photographer. Sometimes they'll let you choose and other times they might have something from a recent shoot or an unretouched one that they send. The answer to the second question also depends on the photog as well.
Sometimes you might be offered to do a complete story (5-8 images) for free or it'll be a smaller number.
~
Collected advice from Natalia Taffarel about testing posted on MM : https://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?te … rt_order=0
natalia taffarel wrote:
Work/Test for ALREADY PUBLISHED photographers who have a chance at getting noticed again or work FOR advertising companies.
Photographers are your foot in the door.
A retoucher is not a stand alone service until he is already known. To get known work / test with photographers that will move up - You get as far as your clients get. Remember that, next time you take a horrible turd for money to polish
x natalia taffarel wrote:
Testing is not free work.
Working for exposure is not free work.
Personal example: Test with a photographer on an editorial, ends up being the cover of NEO2 - The photographers gets to do an image, advertising for Honda - I get the higher rate I've ever made with one image.
Limited minds, keep ranting... I'll go spend the money I made from the exposure wink natalia taffarel wrote:
You don't PUSH for paid work. I've never done more than one editorial for test - Maybe TWO if they are amazing with great credits... but that's about it... if they can't afford a retoucher EVER they are not potential clients, just someone who might be good for portfolio images.
If you don't see it like that and are waiting for work, it won't come. When photographers use retouchers they test with you they love what you do, they give you paid work.
No need to push for it as it's benefitial for both parties. natalia taffarel wrote:
"Why won't the model do TF with me?"/ "Why won't the photographer do TF with me?"/ "Why won't .... "
The answer is ALWAYS THE SAME You test when is good for your portfolio. If people do not test with you is because you can't offer them something they want/need in return. PERIOD natalia taffarel wrote:
[subject: photographers not responding to tests they sent to retouchers]
No answer is an answer
If you were doing a free test, you got what you wanted - display rights for portfolio. If you were doing it to get a new client ... You didn't do what they wanted or they could never afford you from the start.
Be more selective about who you test for.
It really says a lot more about you than it does layout them. You can't change the way others act - you can only change the way you act.
Just my 2 cents natalia taffarel wrote:
[subject: "tests/TF are just lopsided arrangements"]
You have NO IDEA
My clients shoot for publications worldwide, they have clients like L'oreal and Unilever (Both hair and still life) and they STILL test. Testing is not about free stuff is about cooperation to get great images. It's about shooting concepts to submit to magazines is about CREATING.
Your thinking won't get you very far... shooting clients in salons is also good tho... have fun doing it smile
x natalia taffarel wrote:
[subject: "i get frustrated when people ask me to test b/c i see it as working for free"]
People keep saying it's about who you know. It's really not, it's about who knows you, how you present yourself and what you do, how you deal with people - Not in the marketing sense but in the personal sense.
Every time someone I admire asks me for my rates I ask them for a test, because I need to see if we fit into each other's way of working if we have similar taste or at least we can agree on basics of style.
A cock was chatting with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to
The top of that tree," sighed the cock, "but I can't fly or climb."
"Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull."
They're packed with nutrients."
The cock pecked at a lump of dung, and found it actually gave him
Enough strength to reach the lowest branch of the tree.
The next day he reached the second branch and, finally, after a fourth
Night, the cock was proudly perched at the top of the tree.
He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out of the tree.
Management Lesson: Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep
You there.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
wow, thanks a lot! this is very helpful! natalia taffarel wrote:
If you were doing a free test, you got what you wanted - display rights for portfolio. it's the only point I'm doubting about... are you sure you've got this right?
(by default, without asking about it beforehand or afterwards)
Retoucher
Alesya Popova
Posts: 4
Berlin, Berlin, Germany
I think that sometimes it is useful to do tests. But of course you should be aware of risks.
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
ivancoart wrote:
wow, thanks a lot! this is very helpful!
it's the only point I'm doubting about... are you sure you've got this right?
(by default, without asking about it beforehand or afterwards) Just ask them for permission. I think there's some sort of debate whether or not it's innately portfolio material (meaning that even if you fail the test, you can still use it) but in the end it's always best to just ask the photographer.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Kami Fore wrote:
... but in the end it's always best to just ask the photographer. I would say, it's better to ask at the beginning:) especially, about showing before-after. But for that purpose (just for your port and some kind of training) you can easily find a lot of good stuff on MM forum. And I like it!
Another point to discuss - what's your attitude to the casting calls, when a potential client announces: "we need a great retoucher for our project, so we'll give all of you the same image and then will choose who is the best"? I doubt very much that all such castings are fair. It seems to me, they're just sending different (!) images to all the retouchers to get their portfolio done for free. Not always, but maybe 50/50. Recently I've participated in such casting call, spent the whole day for one image, have done this job very accurate (dodge&burn only), but received no answer. That's why I was so angry and started this thread.
So, do you participate in such castings, are they worth it? or you agree that about half of them may be unfair?
Retoucher
Kami Fore
Posts: 150
Los Angeles, California, US
ivancoart wrote:
Another point to discuss - what's your attitude to the casting calls, when a potential client announces: "we need a great retoucher for our project, so we'll give all of you the same image and then will choose who is the best"? I doubt very much that all such castings are fair. It seems to me, they're just sending different (!) images to all the retouchers to get their portfolio done for free. Not always, but maybe 50/50. Recently I've participated in such casting call, spent the whole day for one image, have done this job very accurate (dodge&burn only), but received no answer. That's why I was so angry and started this thread.
So, do you participate in such castings, are they worth it? or you agree that about half of them may be unfair? My response is going to be a lot like PJKRetouching's so I advise to refer to theirs in addition to this--
I stopped hunting for work in casting calls because they don't get you anywhere. But they're also useful if you're starting to build your contacts and need an odd $10 - $40. There are major photographers HERE on MM but they don't post casting calls for retouchers. The photographers that do are people that, like you, are building their books and a lot of it will consist of minimal compensation or TF. While TF is good, it's much better to just get your starting photos from GOOD images in the Challenge section and build your book with that and use them as a launching point to contact better photographers who'll give you better images.
As for those casting calls in particular - avoid them like the plague. They're people who see retouchers like cattle to produce images and who's mentality won't make them successful. Not ALL of them are like that but I spent a lot of time in the casting section, sometimes posting my own ads, a year ago. So I already know what you're talking about when you quote people that post things like that. Like that's why a lot of photographers get busted in the Challenge section when retouchers post 'better retouches' that they just exploit. Where they're not interested in collaborating or even paying good retouchers and they pretend to just see what people can do to just collect the images to build their books. The people that want to trick retouchers in the casting call section do the same thing. But again, not everyone is like that.
Another thing that Natalia said is that 'no answer is also an answer,' meaning that if someone's not responding to you it means that they don't think you're good enough. So in addition to all that scammy shit that might be going on, it may ALSO not be responding because they don't like your retouching. Doesn't matter how good you THINK you are. If they aren't clamoring and tripping over themselves to work with you, they don't like your work. Oh well. Just try someone else.
You just have to be very very discerning about who you work with and what castings you respond to. That's why I suggested to just work yourself to death and build a portfolio that'll get you better contacts that wouldn't dream of using you.
So ultimately that's just my suggestion. Make a kickass portfolio, contact photographers you love that work in the industry you like / have similar stylized images in their portfolio, and avoid that shit all together.
Retoucher
Ivan Zayats Retouch
Posts: 90
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus
Thanks a lot for your advice and such expanded answers! Really very helpful.
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
A whole lot of people are responding as if you're talking about (T)esting. But from your original post description, that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about. You seem to be talking about your capability being (t-lowercase)ested, before the "client" will give you a paid job. Two totally different things. (T)esting can be a positive thing for creatives and most do it periodically at whatever level. What you describe; not so much.
Model
Mishelle portfolio
Posts: 163
Miami, Florida, US
I'm willing to do collaborate for creatives.
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