Mariana PP wrote:
Hello,

I think Model Mayhem should kick out photographers with such unprofessional behavior!

Many thanks.

If MM started dumping unprofessional members there wouldnt be anybody on the site

Mariana PP wrote:
Hello,

I think Model Mayhem should kick out photographers with such unprofessional behavior!

Many thanks.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
If MM started dumping unprofessional members there wouldnt be anybody on the site

Are you speaking for/including yourself in that statement. 

How absurd.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
You might consider visiting your local Citizens Advice Bureau and talking to one of their legal eagles about what exactly your options are,  The advice should be free.

In my opinion, suggesting legal options is a bad idea:
...  Advice might be free, but the execution of a legal dispute rarely is free.
...  Lawyers might be able to resolve a dispute, but they usually leave ruined relationships in their wake.
...  Assume that the photographer is going to talk to every other photographer in the world.
...  Reminder:  they had a verbal agreement, and the parties might have radically different understandings
     of that agreement.  Why do you think the court will side with her?

Are the allegedly missing photos worth the effort & the damage to the model's reputation?  Chances are, no.  See my previous posting for more constructive suggestions.  Or more specifically, consider legal actions only after all other options have been exhausted.  Then consider whether the gain is worth the risk.  Sorry, but sometimes the smartest move is to give up & move on.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
Alternatively, you could try going to the exhibition and telling everyone there what a louse the fellow is!

Umm, no.  What would that accomplish?  At worst, she'll be shown the door, word will get around, and photographers will shy away from her.  This is an immature & non-constructive manner to handle this situation.  Sorry -- I vote "no".

Looknsee Photography wrote:

In my opinion, suggesting legal options is a bad idea:
...  Advice might be free, but the execution of a legal dispute rarely is free.
...  Lawyers might be able to resolve a dispute, but they usually leave ruined relationships in their wake.
...  Assume that the photographer is going to talk to every other photographer in the world.
...  Reminder:  they had a verbal agreement, and the parties might have radically different understandings
     of that agreement.  Why do you think the court will side with her?

Are the allegedly missing photos worth the effort & the damage to the model's reputation?  Chances are, no.  See my previous posting for more constructive suggestions.  Or more specifically, consider legal actions only after all other options have been exhausted.  Then consider whether the gain is worth the risk.  Sorry, but sometimes the smartest move is to give up & move on.


Umm, no.  What would that accomplish?  At worst, she'll be shown the door, word will get around, and photographers will shy away from her.  This is an immature & non-constructive manner to handle this situation.  Sorry -- I vote "no".

Well, the threat of legal action, at least in the UK where it is not that expensive or complicated to carry out the threat, often brings results.

And clearly, Americans don't have a sense of humour.  I think the OP guessed I wasn't being serious about the exhibition thing.

Mariana PP wrote:
Hello,

I  had a verbal TFP agreement with a photographer that needed me in order to produce photos for an upcoming exhibition of his work.
(Always get it in writing!)
After the shot I contacted the photographer repeatedly but he's ignoring my texts, he seems to have disappeared from the face of earth.
How soon after? If you didn't wait at least a week or two, he may feel you are hounding him.
I've done TFP many times and this is a first for me. What really annoys me is that he's not only going to exhibit my his images, but also potentially sell prints of them.
Fixed that for ya.
Is there anything I can do to forbid him using and profiting from my image? I think Model Mayhem should kick out photographers with such unprofessional behavior!
It is also unprofessional for a model to not get things in writing
Many thanks.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

If MM started dumping unprofessional members there wouldnt be anybody on the site

Soooooo true!!!

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
There seems to be a lot of this going around.  Always get it in writing. 
When working with models, I always have them sign a model release which i email them beforehand so they can look it over.  Maybe models that do TF should have the photographer sign a release. 

Hmmmm, if he is exhibiting, maybe you can tell him that your will contact the venue and let them know that he doesn't have a model release and that he didn't keep his end of the verbal agreement.   

Good luck, I really hate hearing this stuff because it gives a bad rep to other photographers.

Mary

Thank you for your advice, but I think in the UK model releases are not worth much, they only count if the photographer tries to sell the images for stock photography I guess.
About contacting the venue, I wouldn't really do that, it has nothing to do with them.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Sorry for your troubles.

I note that we are hearing only one side of the story, and the story we are hearing is kinda sparse on details:  for example, what were the terms & expectations of your agreement?

The terms were: I pose for him and he'd give me photos. Very simple. I've done this quite a few times and it's pretty straight forward. I say verbal agreement, but there were email exchanges agreeing this, but there was nothing signed, I didn't expect to. Of course you'll hear one side of the story, as I'm the one telling it. I also note: I'm not a professional model, I do this as a hobby and I collaborate with people I feel I can trust they're going to honour their word.

Things you can do:
...  You don't have to work with that photographer ever again. VERY LIKELY.
...  You can get in the habit of documenting the terms of your agreement (e-mail is okay).  Include...
     ---  When & where the shoot will take place.
I've done that.
     ---  What you need to bring.
I've done that.
     ---  What is your compensation.
I've done that. Compensation were going to be a selection of photos.
     ---  If TFP, then
          ===  How many images will be delivered?
I didn't agree that. Normally the photographer would suggest a number.
          ===  What format?  (e.g.  unedited or edited, RAW or JPG, with or without watermark, etc).
I didn't agree this. I've never received anything that wasn't JPG.
          ===  What are your usage rights?
I didn't agree this. As I mentioned, I'm not a professional, I do this because if gives me pleasure to collaborate in the creative process of a beautiful image. I don't sell the images, I don't want to sell them! I keep them for myself.
     ---  When will images be delivered to you?
He said he'd send me photos after his exhibition opened (it was due to open on 24th October). I though that was fine, maybe he didn't want me to have the photos in case I put them on here before the exhibition, fair enough. He then comes back saying he'll include my photos in his New Year exhibition (implying I wouldn't get my photos till then) but never replied to me when I asked for a definite date in which I'll have the photos.

...  You can tell your model friends, whom you know & trust and who know & trust you.
I don't have model friends, I'm not a pro.

and so forth.  The idea is to anticipate the points of contention and make an effort to avoid future misunderstandings.

Thanks, I just feel hurt because he didn't honour his word. I did honour my part of the deal, I went to his studio, I was punctual,I posed for six hours, and as far as I know, he didn't have any complaint about me. In fact he even asked me to shoot again around 10 days later, which I politely declined as I thought his refusal to give me a definite answer regarding the photos was quite fishy.

But wishing MM to kick the guy off -- that's not realistic.  And before you propose it, creating some kind of MM wise rating system is also not realistic.  Sorry.

I understand. And I was not going to propose any system to MM, I'm not a pro, it doesn't worry me THAT much (I say it once again).

Wheeling Tog wrote:
OP...darling, lots of shitheads in the world. Suck it up and move on.

You could also require a refundable Paypal deposit next time.

Thank you for your advice, but if I'm going to ask for deposits I may as well not do a TFP and start charging (which I don't want to do). It's about people honouring their word and not using others for profit.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
You might consider visiting your local Citizens Advice Bureau and talking to one of their legal eagles about what exactly your options are,  The advice should be free.

Alternatively, you could try going to the exhibition and telling everyone there what a louse the fellow is!

Hi, I'm not a professional model, I have a day job and have no time to go to CAB. I'm angered by his plan to use me, I believe he never had any intention to give me any photos. From the start.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Kent Art Photography wrote:
You might consider visiting your local Citizens Advice Bureau and talking to one of their legal eagles about what exactly your options are,  The advice should be free.

In my opinion, suggesting legal options is a bad idea:
...  Advice might be free, but the execution of a legal dispute rarely is free.
...  Lawyers might be able to resolve a dispute, but they usually leave ruined relationships in their wake.
...  Assume that the photographer is going to talk to every other photographer in the world.
...  Reminder:  they had a verbal agreement, and the parties might have radically different understandings
     of that agreement.  Why do you think the court will side with her?


Are the allegedly missing photos worth the effort & the damage to the model's reputation?  Chances are, no.  See my previous posting for more constructive suggestions.  Or more specifically, consider legal actions only after all other options have been exhausted.  Then consider whether the gain is worth the risk.  Sorry, but sometimes the smartest move is to give up & move on.

I agree with this, I do this as a hobby and have no time nor interest in taking the matter further.


Umm, no.  What would that accomplish?  At worst, she'll be shown the door, word will get around, and photographers will shy away from her.  This is an immature & non-constructive manner to handle this situation.  Sorry -- I vote "no".

Flex Photography wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Mariana, I've found most people photographers included want to honor their agreements.   It makes no sense NOT to give you the photos unless and this is key they didn't look good.   That's often hard to admit to a model because its not her fault.   Maybe he had a off day.   Maybe a computer or camera problem.   He should be open and frank with you in any case.   Ask yourself this.   Why wouldn't he give you the agreed upon images.   Photographers want their work to be seen.   If you do speak to him ask him if their was a problem with how they looked.   Don't express any anger but explain if possible could you see them, perhaps if possible on his computer.

Things happen and again if he's avoiding you because the shots aren't good then he shouldn't.   Avoid threats of legal action.   Stay calm and reasoned.   if he still refuses to share the images or won't reply to you then move on.

Thank you for your advice, this is an interesting thought. He did contact me ten days after the shot to try and do another one but I declined as he hadn't mentioned anything about the photos for the first. Anyway, I saw the photos as he was taking them, on the computer screen and they looked REALLY GOOD (any I have a trained eye for what it looks good, I work in architecture), so I don't really think that was the reason. I'll give this a go, thanks.