Model
Lisa J Models
Posts: 44
Miami, Florida, US
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. It seems odd that if you wouldn't pay a nurse a dr.'s salary why you would even consider charging photographers to work with you when you have little to no experience. Same goes for photographers. Anyways, I just wanted to be reassured that I was doing the right thing. It only makes sense that as a model who has only been in a handful of photoshoots, I should not charge anyone to shoot with me, even nudes, unless I am hired through a company for a project until I have, by some miracle, acquired tear sheets, or signed with an agency getting me quality paid work should I charge someone.
Am I doing this right or has the modeling world grown into a MONEY business with dead end dreams?
*Sorry had to add this*
Come to think of it, I don't know of ANY models signed to agencies or companies that charge photographers. I think once you have become a well established model or celebrity such as Gemma Ward, or even a Victoria Secret model you can charge photographers. But even then, they make enough money they don't need to charge.
Photographer
dax
Posts: 1015
Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden
This only happens on the internet. Whenever I want to test, I have never had an agency charge me... LOL and they give me girls who are just amazing, yet they dont charge, -they actually pay most of the time- then u have some girls who are just.. phone camera models who expect to charge.. funny.. the power of the 'net! 
Photographer
BlueCrow Photography
Posts: 112
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
DixieGrace wrote:
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. It seems odd that if you wouldn't pay a nurse a dr.'s salary why you would even consider charging photographers to work with you when you have little to no experience. Same goes for photographers. Anyways, I just wanted to be reassured that I was doing the right thing. It only makes sense that as a model who has only been in a handful of photoshoots, I should not charge anyone to shoot with me, even nudes, unless I am hired through a company for a project until I have, by some miracle, acquired tear sheets, or signed with an agency getting me quality paid work should I charge someone.
Am I doing this right or has the modeling world grown into a MONEY business with dead end dreams? I agree for the most part with what you are saying. However, if a particular model or photographer has what you need to take your port to the next level wouldn't it be worth paying them?
BillD
BlueCrow Photography
Model
NC17
Posts: 1739
Baltimore, Maryland, US
Oooooo A model with smarts! You'll go far with that!
You're right, the trick is being smart about your TFP choices, and arranging them so that they benefit you in the long run for whatever direction and goals you have.
Of course, that requires knowing what your goals are and accurately setting yourself up to achieve them.
But of that, I have little doubt you'll succeed.
Best of luck!
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Photographer
RStephenT
Posts: 3105
Vacaville, California, US
DixieGrace wrote:
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. It seems odd that if you wouldn't pay a nurse a dr.'s salary why you would even consider charging photographers to work with you when you have little to no experience. Same goes for photographers. Anyways, I just wanted to be reassured that I was doing the right thing. It only makes sense that as a model who has only been in a handful of photoshoots, I should not charge anyone to shoot with me, even nudes, unless I am hired through a company for a project until I have, by some miracle, acquired tear sheets, or signed with an agency getting me quality paid work should I charge someone.
Am I doing this right or has the modeling world grown into a MONEY business with dead end dreams?
*Sorry had to add this*
Come to think of it, I don't know of ANY models signed to agencies or companies that charge photographers. I think once you have become a well established model or celebrity such as Gemma Ward, or even a Victoria Secret model you can charge photographers. But even then, they make enough money they don't need to charge. Kudos to you for approaching this in an intelligent manner. If you want to be paid consistently find the right market niche in your area and gear your portfolio in that direction. Best of Luck to you.
Photographer
Fotogene
Posts: 562
Chicago Heights, Illinois, US
I will be seen as a turn coat, a traitor and not entirely representing my peers but..
You are corect in wanting to obtain as much experience as you can before you feel cofortable and competent to advertise and expect professional fees. Nude is something else, however, since your natural charms, even the first time have an appeal all their own. I have spent over 40 years capturing mother nature's beautiful female children for my regular fee, a little or great discounted fee and for TFP / TFCD. In the beginning ti took a lot of groveling and asking to have willing llamas, all of them amateurs. These days (thankfully) llamas, first times and pros find my product is worth the life of time, literlally tons of money for constantly upgrade equipment, several forms of formal and hard knocks education and my own application of my eye and computer work.
Does it seem like I just contradicted myself? No, the point is that you can find paying gigs to do nudes from your first time. Art schools and some college programs will hire llamas for primarily painting, drawing and sculpting but occassionally photography students. Posing is posing with or without clothing and becoming able to walk into a shoot with self confidence and a "can do - will do" attitude can be learned with or without all of your clothes on or off. Many llamas limit their scope to "no nudes, no nipples or pubic hair, absolutely no frontal or spead shots." Many have real self image problems or feel thay will destroy any chance for fame or fortune if a stray image showing their naked form will undue them later in life. (They somehow miss the hundreds of actresses who we all know who got their first start on the pages of Playboy, etc.)
The real point is that if you want to be a pro you will want to work with pros. You can find many amateur photographers who are quite good and can help you find out who you are in print and will be willing to shoot you for free. Some will pay right off the bat for a nude llama. Most of the pros will relunctantly use otherwise paying time to help you get started for TFCD / P if you throw in that you will want some nude shots.
As for clothed work, your work will continue to improve as long as you select the people who you work with based on their product and when someone sees in your images or personality when they meet you something they need in a project you will become a true professional. Remember, YOU are responsible for your learning curve and how easy you work with other professionals that will make them refer you to work and others or not.
By the way, I'd love to shoot you TFCD.
Model
Josie Nutter
Posts: 5865
Seattle, Washington, US
DixieGrace wrote:
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. Yeah, lots of clueless n00bs on the intarweb.
I always refer that type to these:
MODEL RATES-- questions answered here.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=64694
Basically, group consensus here seems to be this:
If you have very little experience, you should not be charging people to shoot with you. You should be doing TFP (testing) to build a portfolio and gain experience posing, working with new photographers, etc. This time should also help you figure out what type(s) of modelling you want to do and where you're trying to go with it all. Be realistic. Even if you're very slender, you will probably never, ever walk major runways in NYC at 5'4" (unless your family is filthy rich and extremely famous... in which case, what are you doing here? :p).
RECOMMENDED READING FOR ALL NEW MODELS: http://www.newmodels.com
Rates should be based on supply and demand. They should take things into account like the quality of your physical appearance, experience level, demand for your "look", location, etc. Keep in mind that even if you are lucky enough to be located in a major metropolitan area, there is probably not a ton of paid work available for non-agency models-- yet, even so, tons of competition for that work. Price accordingly.
If you are an inexperienced model with a poorly shot portfolio, asking astronomical rates for non-nudes, you will probably not get any work through this website. Mhana's list of What to charge? what do you charge
https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=64691
More:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/search.php? … mit=Search
Photographer
Doug Lester
Posts: 10591
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Sometimes I have to chuckle a bit. Please, do not compare modeling on the net with mainstream modeling through an agency, they have little to nothing in common. TFP is an invention of the internet and does not exist in traditional modeling. In mainstream modeling, if a model is booked for an assignment, she is paid the going rate with nothing even mentioned about "experience". Experience may be a factor in gettting booked but not usually and not with pay. Before I retired from commercial photography, I was booked for a local magazine cover with three agency repressented models. One had been modeling for three years, one had done few shoots and one was an absolute novice, with my shoot being her first ever. All three were booked by the client, the magazine, based on their look and availability. All three were paid the same rate.
TFP is a very different thing from 'tests' done through an agency. There are traditions and 'industry normss' involved in 'testing' which just do not exist in modeling on the net. If a model needs photos or wants to gain experience, then book TFP sessions. If a photographer needs photos and/or wants to work with inexperienced models, then book TFP sesions. If a model or photographer wants to be paid, then don't do TFP, it just that simple.
Photographer
San Francisco Nudes
Posts: 2910
Novato, California, US
Put another way, if you go the agency route and do "real" commercial work there will be some kind of a client paying both you and the photographer - the photographer wouldn't be the one paying the model.
If you go the Internet model route, you'll mostly be doing some combination of letting beginner photographers practice on you and working for photographers who are themselves the clients (artists who sell prints, as an example). It may very well make sense to do both TFP and paid work on an ongoing basis - do TFP with the very best photographers in the area who will do TFP with you, which will give you a portfolio to impress the beginners and get big bucks from them.
For nude work in particular unless you're super confident being nude you're best off starting with an old pro who will be comfortable and confident and help you through the process. If they pay you, great, but expect TFP. Once you've done that, again, turn around and charge the newbies big bucks.
The "models" who really end up just frustrating everybody including themselves are the ones who do TFP maybe once, feel like they have the hang of modeling, and then run around asking for huge sums. They may get a newbie photographer to pay it once or twice which makes them feel justified in charging that much, but then they wonder why they never get any decent images out of the shoots, get bored with it, and quit.
Photographer
Richard Tallent
Posts: 7136
Beaumont, Texas, US
San Francisco Nudes wrote:
For nude work in particular unless you're super confident being nude you're best off starting with an old pro who will be comfortable and confident and help you through the process. If they pay you, great, but expect TFP. Once you've done that, again, turn around and charge the newbies big bucks. Good advice (the entire post). But remember, newbie photographers paying large fees for nudes/implied/lingerie/swimwear/etc. produce exactly the sort of shots you probably *don't* want flying around the Internet. IMHO, the money isn't worth it in the long run.
But my advice is also to work with as many photographers as you can TFCD, checking a few references and giving a chance to some unproven photographers who look like they have some raw talent. And do as many styles as you can. Meeting people and collaborating is what makes this Internet modeling thing fun, not spending all of your time waiting on only the highest-caliber photographers to ring you up for TFCD.
Model
KatieK
Posts: 619
Lawrence, Kansas, US
Richard Tallent wrote:
Good advice (the entire post). But remember, newbie photographers paying large fees for nudes/implied/lingerie/swimwear/etc. produce exactly the sort of shots you probably *don't* want flying around the Internet. IMHO, the money isn't worth it in the long run.
But my advice is also to work with as many photographers as you can TFCD, checking a few references and giving a chance to some unproven photographers who look like they have some raw talent. And do as many styles as you can. Meeting people and collaborating is what makes this Internet modeling thing fun, not spending all of your time waiting on only the highest-caliber photographers to ring you up for TFCD. You nailed it. Many times, the photographers you don't want to shoot with are the ones who offer to pay. I am very selective about who I'll work with, paid or not. You will do well to be extremely picky.
I've been on here for a while now, and OMP for over a year. My paid gigs are few and far between, and over half of those were promotional jobs. Very rarely do I get offered money to work with a photographer that I want to work with. I've been offered lots of cash and turned it down because I don't want images of that nature plastered all over the place. It drops my value.
Very, very few people 'make it' as models. What you take out of it (as an experience) may be the most valuable thing you ever get as a net model.
Photographer
Hugh Jorgen
Posts: 2850
Ashland, Oregon, US
Ya snooze ya lose!!
Lotta snoozin goin on here
(:-------
Hj
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21528
Chicago, Illinois, US
To me when a person decides that their time is worth money shouldn't be
based on how many shoots they have or the quality of the work they show.
Some here have already spoken to the difference between the net and real world
modeling. Models at agencies Test shoot all the time as well as many known
and talented photographers. These photographers are often known to provide
models with usable images or are such good artists that models clamor to
work with them. Its kinda hard to really know if a person you meet on line will
be able to provide the type of work you as a model can use.
In many cases they won't. So a decision has to be made. Do you continue to
do TFP and get uneven results? Do you charge a fee of some sort? I guess
their is no correct answer its up to you.
Photographer
Tom Winstead
Posts: 551
Raleigh, North Carolina, US
Doug Lester wrote:
Sometimes I have to chuckle a bit. Please, do not compare modeling on the net with mainstream modeling through an agency, they have little to nothing in common. TFP is an invention of the internet and does not exist in traditional modeling. Just a quick note, but TFP is not an invention of the internet, at least the popular internet that we all use today. TFP started out back before digital photography, when film was king.
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Tom Winstead wrote:
Just a quick note, but TFP is not an invention of the internet, at least the popular internet that we all use today. TFP started out back before digital photography, when film was king. Tom, I've heard that claim before, and it may be true. However, I've been around for a very long time, and can't recall ever hearing "TFP" used as a term until somewhat after Internet modeling became common.
Certainly it is not, and has not been, used in the professional community. If its use precedes the Internet, I suspect it was only among amateurs, and may have been quite localized, since in pre-Internet days there wasn't all that much opportunity for cultural items like terminology to propagate among amateurs.
Photographer
Fotografia-di-Asia
Posts: 6118
Park City, Utah, US
DixieGrace wrote:
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. It seems odd that if you wouldn't pay a nurse a dr.'s salary why you would even consider charging photographers to work with you when you have little to no experience. Same goes for photographers. Anyways, I just wanted to be reassured that I was doing the right thing. It only makes sense that as a model who has only been in a handful of photoshoots, I should not charge anyone to shoot with me, even nudes, unless I am hired through a company for a project until I have, by some miracle, acquired tear sheets, or signed with an agency getting me quality paid work should I charge someone.
Am I doing this right or has the modeling world grown into a MONEY business with dead end dreams?
*Sorry had to add this*
Come to think of it, I don't know of ANY models signed to agencies or companies that charge photographers. I think once you have become a well established model or celebrity such as Gemma Ward, or even a Victoria Secret model you can charge photographers. But even then, they make enough money they don't need to charge. Gees, a smart and sexy girl on the internet! What a rare find! I'll send every girl who ask if I'd pay them this thread.
Photographer
The Dave
Posts: 8848
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
I never heard of TFP before digital cameras and the internet. Back in the day you had tests. Some tests were paid (very few) most were free. And if the model got a single print that was more like a bonus. Even today agents still send out models for a test. Had one in my studio 2 weeks ago and yes I gave her some prints.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
I would think that moving from TFCD to paid is a natural part of a model, photographer, or MUA's evolution.
The method and timing of the transition is crucial to avoid appearing too arrogant or too easy.
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
rp_photo wrote:
I would think that moving from TFCD to paid is a natural part of a model, photographer, or MUA's evolution. On the Internet that seems to be true. But it's more a cultural thing than a law of nature.
Photographer
3 P Photography
Posts: 161
Orlando, Florida, US
DixieGrace wrote:
I've noticed quite a few semi or no experienced models on this as well as other sites expect to get paid through photographers who want to shoot with them. It seems odd that if you wouldn't pay a nurse a dr.'s salary why you would even consider charging photographers to work with you when you have little to no experience. Same goes for photographers. Anyways, I just wanted to be reassured that I was doing the right thing. It only makes sense that as a model who has only been in a handful of photoshoots, I should not charge anyone to shoot with me, even nudes, unless I am hired through a company for a project until I have, by some miracle, acquired tear sheets, or signed with an agency getting me quality paid work should I charge someone.
Am I doing this right or has the modeling world grown into a MONEY business with dead end dreams?
*Sorry had to add this*
Come to think of it, I don't know of ANY models signed to agencies or companies that charge photographers. I think once you have become a well established model or celebrity such as Gemma Ward, or even a Victoria Secret model you can charge photographers. But even then, they make enough money they don't need to charge.
Photographer
dax
Posts: 1015
Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden
Tom Winstead wrote:
Just a quick note, but TFP is not an invention of the internet, at least the popular internet that we all use today. TFP started out back before digital photography, when film was king. I did not get into photography, before the 'net. When I started I did use film, but I already had internet.. but from the ppl i know who did start before the 'net, the idea of tfp has always existed...the testing and each getting copies of the pictures has always existed.. but the idea of what tfp is now, is new... the attitude of tfp is new...
Photographer
dax
Posts: 1015
Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden
rp_photo wrote:
I would think that moving from TFCD to paid is a natural part of a model, photographer, or MUA's evolution. Yes, the idea is to make money off the business.. but the point is that there are models who make well over $100k a year who still do free testing... The only place where u get girls who barely have some experience shooting yet, they expect to get paid all the time is the 'net
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
There are a lot of reasons why a model would consider doing TFP. Here's some:
>>> You can get high quality images to add to your portfolio.
>>> You get some experience working with an experienced photographer.
>>> You learn a bit more about how to be professional.
>>> You get to meet skilled photographers who may consider you for future jobs.
>>> If you are the experienced one, working with a beginner photographer might be
a nice way to "pay back" the people that helped you become experienced & skilled.
Therefore, I suggest that you be selective when deciding on who you will work with. Will you learn a lot from working with a beginner photographer?
I agree with others -- nude work should be compensated.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
TXPhotog wrote:
Certainly it is not, and has not been, used in the professional community. If its use precedes the Internet, I suspect it was only among amateurs, and may have been quite localized, since in pre-Internet days there wasn't all that much opportunity for cultural items like terminology to propagate among amateurs. Life was so much simpler 20 years ago. As with everything, progress (in this case the Net) brings with it both good and bad.
Photographer
David Brinkman
Posts: 26
Palm Springs, California, US
TXPhotog wrote:
www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=94267
This "TFP and then get paid" notion is an Internet thing. I see this comment a lot. Persons who say this are just parroting the line spouted by agencies. But I - and many other photographers - have been using trades for decades, long before the 'internet thing.' It's nothing but a barter arrangement folks, and barter has been around longer than money. Models who don't use it are either lucky that they don't have to, or naive and not getting work.
What the internet has done is make it easier for people to connect, who are willing to do such trades. Prior to the internet, agencies were the only game in town - and they (typically) HATE TFP. All too often, agencies required models to pay agency-partnered photographers for photos, as a condition of representation. And even when that doesn't occur, agencies don't get paid in a trade deal... I dont' know of any agency that supports trades - even if it means the model goes with no work.
I respect and understand the role that (ethical) agencies play, but like everyone else, they are there to make money. So it's not that trades are a bad deal for a newbie model - it's about the fact that if you take a trade, an agency gets no money.
It's all about money. Get used to it.
The most important thing a model can do is get good, eye-catching photos. THEY are what makes your first impression; they are your business product; they are what brings you more business and (hopefully) makes you money. If you must trade to get these images, then go do trades. It's simple logical, as well as logical economics.
Yes, the internet has made it easy to do this through sites like this - but when I hear people say that 'trade' is an internet thing, as if it has no merit, I get angry. If you're new to the industry and can't afford to PAY for photos, then doing trades is the smartest thing to do. It may be your only choice.
My advice - go find a semi-professional photographer - or even a student - who does good work and will do the trade. Those images may spring-board you into paying jobs and agency contracts. Without those images ... well, you know where that leaves you.
Photographer
Fotografia-di-Asia
Posts: 6118
Park City, Utah, US
i feel more people should know about this.
Model
Lapis
Posts: 8424
Chicago, Illinois, US
only if you want a really good portfolio so you can actually get paid by good photographers when you start asking for money. If I never worked tfp, I wouldn't have a portfolio at all.
Photographer
Richard Tallent
Posts: 7136
Beaumont, Texas, US
David Brinkman wrote:
I see this comment a lot. Persons who say this are just parroting the line spouted by agencies.
[...]
The most important thing a model can do is get good, eye-catching photos. THEY are what makes your first impression; they are your business product; they are what brings you more business and (hopefully) makes you money. If you must trade to get these images, then go do trades. It's simple logical, as well as logical economics. (Ok, I'll bite at the bump. I'm just giddy that the server is back up...)
David, you missed TXPhotog's point entirely. Trade does happen all the time, and the Internet has made it easier to find people who can help each other.
But, for 99% of models, there is no pay after TFCD. Just more TFCD. Doesn't matter what rates they put on their profile.
The problem is that there is another law of economics here: demand. There are only a few ways a model will ever be paid:
1. Working through a legit agency. Strangely enough, they want portfolios that look like their clients' advertisements, not artsy-fartsy or wannabe-FHM shots from some Net photographer.
2. Posing for a legit art photographer. There is an elite set of models (Lapis for instance) who do paid work regularly, generally by artists who sell their work. But this is a very small club and very few models will get there, regardless of TFCD work. Also, by most accounts, it's pocket change even at the highest levels, not the private-room-dance rates seen on many amateur Internet profiles.
3. Posing for a rich GWC. The ones who click the SugarDaddies ads. In which case the models don't need an awesome TFCD portfolio to get work, they just need humps and lumps.
4. Commercial Glamour and Porn. Everything from hot-rod calendars to SG to hard-core. Maybe it's not fair to put them all together, but I see this genre as a continuum rather than as distinct categories. Sure, there's money, but again, assets matter more than an excellent existing portfolio.
5. Independent commercial work. Doesn't happen often, but Internet modeling might give you a contact who can refer or hire you for some little local thing. A model I worked with recently got a job in a television commercial in part based on her Internet profile. Not a career or even pocket change, just a chance to do something cool.
I only offer TFCD, so I'm not railing against it at all. I just don't agree with holding the dreams of "paid modeling" in front of new models as incentive to do TFCD like a carrot on a stick. Most won't ever see it because there's just not enough of it to go around.
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