Photographer
SurrealPhoto
Posts: 19
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Pay for what, specifically?
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3281
Bath, England, United Kingdom
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why? If neither party is compensated, then nobody pays anybody, obviously.
Or were you asking a different question?
Just my $0.02 etc. etc.
Photographer
Francisco Castro
Posts: 2630
Cincinnati, Ohio, US
Another Italian Guy wrote:
If neither party is compensated, then nobody pays anybody, obviously.
Or were you asking a different question?
Just my $0.02 etc. etc. I think the OP is talking about photos that are not commissioned by a client for commercial purposes.
OP-- to answer your question, whoever wanted/needs the photos. If I have a specific project in mine, I would pay a model. If a model needed my services to update her port, I would expect compensation from her.
Photographer
SurrealPhoto
Posts: 19
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
The client pays.
So who is the client?
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 3351
London, England, United Kingdom
SurrealPhoto wrote:
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies. Who are the pictures/shoot for? If they are for you and the pictures are of no use to the model then they will expect to be paid.
If the photos are for the model, then they will pay you.
if you are looking to trade pictures for the models time, then this needs to be made clear.
Discuss who is paying whom and with what before you shoot.
Photographer
SurrealPhoto
Posts: 19
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Francisco Castro wrote:
I think the OP is talking about photos that are not commissioned by a client for commercial purposes.
OP-- to answer your question, whoever wanted/needs the photos. If I have a specific project in mine, I would pay a model. If a model needed my services to update her port, I would expect compensation from her. I understand, thanks
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9225
Brooklyn, New York, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies. If a model can't use the photos in her port, she expects to get paid. There are many bondage and BDSM photographers that models are willing to shoot with TFP because of the quality of their work. If the models want the work bad enough, they would even pay them.
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
OP: it all depends on who wants to make the photos, and what the usage will be. If for example, you and your model are both setting up a shot for updating your portfolios, then it would be straight up trade where you both do not pay each other, but you both use the images for your portfolios.
If a model wants updates to their portfolio for a very specific thing, then most likely they would commission you for your services and pay you.
If you want to approach a certain shoot where you need a very specific look, you might commission a model and pay the model.
Now usage gets tricky too because if you and a model are shooting trade, but images are intended to be used commercially, technically you as the copyright owner of the images may/may not get paid for the commercial usage, in which the model may have issues with that when they were not paid for their time.
However, if images are sometimes used in an editorial, both you and the model would be credited in which it is promotion for both of you, and it is a usage beyond your portfolio that very little to no money is exchanged for depending on what publication picks up the story.
Generally though, it is a negotiation with whomever you are working with dependent upon how and why you are using images from the shoot. good luck
Photographer
exartica
Posts: 1399
Bowie, Maryland, US
There are three types of models in my portfolio. The ones that wanted my work in their portfolio, the ones that wanted my money in their bank account and a few personal friends who aren't models but wanted the experience. All three of those positions are completely reasonable. Whether I was being paid or not for a specific project was irrelevant to them, as it should be. I have a reason to show up that matters sufficiently to me to make it worth the effort. They need a reason, too. What do you think the reason should be for the models that you want to work with?
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2109
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Who is deciding the concept of the shoot? That's the person that should pay, IF the involved parties can not agree to a TF arrangement.
When I have been paid, it's been by photographers that wanted full control of the shoot. They told me what to wear, had someone do my hair the way they wanted, they decided on the shoot location.. so on and so forth.
When I paid photographers to build up my port when I was first starting out, I got to decide all of those things.
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9271
Oakland, California, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies. It is YOUR project, YOU pay to have it produced.
If you choose to do a project with no client that is your choice, the model doesn't have to make the same choice as you.
If you run into a model who feels that she WANTS to go on and collaborate with you on YOUR project, then great, work together and create images.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
generally whoever is bringing more to the table gets paid - it's not a clear cut model pays photographer or vice versa -
but *here* in model mayhem, it is mostly about models getting paid - it's not the real world or real industry - this place is about the internet modeling phenomenon....
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9271
Oakland, California, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
generally whoever is bringing more to the table gets paid - it's not a clear cut model pays photographer or vice versa -
but *here* in model mayhem, it is mostly about models getting paid - it's not the real world or real industry - this place is about the internet modeling phenomenon.... This is the tiny little section of the internets where photographers come to find talent to create THEIR pet projects.
Of course the photographers are going to be the ones paying.
In the rest of the world, others(models included) want projects commissioned, so they pay the photographers.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies. It seems that it's easier to find models who will TFP on certain projects or genres, than others. Honestly, I myself would pay models for the genre you are desire to shoot. Others might be will to TFP, but I would not expect it. Are you making any income from the images you shoot, or is it strictly for your own purposes? I ask this because probably most of the models are used to getting paid for your genre, and it happens to be something that can sell in the alt market! For what it's worth, I'm sorry you've gotten obnoxious replies, but like I said ... many are used to getting paid, and for good reason.
This is just my own personal feelings regarding it, but I admire any photographer who can do great work in the bondage genre, and someday I may try it myself. However, I know little about rigging. I would have to hire a rigger or shoot a model who has someone for that purpose. So my own purposes, I would shoot for the experience and with hopes of the images being marketable. Very few models will TFP in the bondage genre, so I would plan on paying the model myself.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
generally whoever is bringing more to the table gets paid - it's not a clear cut model pays photographer or vice versa -
but *here* in model mayhem, it is mostly about models getting paid - it's not the real world or real industry - this place is about the internet modeling phenomenon.... You are absolutely correct! However, internet modeling IS an industry in itself.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Carle Photography wrote:
This is the tiny little section of the internets where photographers come to find talent to create THEIR pet projects.
Of course the photographers are going to be the ones paying.
In the rest of the world, others(models included) want projects commissioned, so they pay the photographers. well - perhaps - but I don't pay - I never lack for freelance models for any personal project I want - and I'm booked out four to five weeks solid.....
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
You are absolutely correct! However, internet modeling IS an industry in itself. indeed - "an industry" versus "the industry" - the latter being the place where professional photographers make money....
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
You are absolutely correct! However, internet modeling IS an industry in itself. I don't think I would go that far, that is sort of like saying collecting beanie babies is an industry...
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks Nobody. It's like music . . you get together with people that want to play a similar tune and that are a similar skill level. You put in your talents and roll tape.
Photographer
David M Russell
Posts: 1301
New York, New York, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks The Cubs.
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9271
Oakland, California, US
Mortonovich wrote:
Nobody. It's like music . . you get together with people that want to play a similar tune and that are a similar skill level. You put in your talents and roll tape. This is a good way to look at it as well.
Model
Isis22
Posts: 3557
Muncie, Indiana, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
The projects I work on are mostly rope bondage which takes me a fair amount of time to complete safely on models; and then photo capture.
Most models I encounter have an expectation for being paid, when I am not compensated; sometimes ridiculous amounts.
After declining, I have received a few obnoxious replies. What you shoot I would describe as fetish. That in and of itself is why many models will expect payment. It's not going to help their port and as you said it does take a lot of time. Being tied up, no matter how comfortable, makes things a little trickier.
You are going to run into obnoxious replies, we all get them. You are also going to get requests for ridiculously high amounts of payment. I have gotten a few of those from stylists and photographers.
I have gotten paid when there has been a client and when there has not been. Sometimes the photographer wants them for his own personal collection. There's nothing wrong with that but if it's YOUR project you can expect most models to want payment.
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 548
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks Both or neither. Who is the client? Or is it just for fun?
Model
Julia Steel
Posts: 2474
Sylvania, Ohio, US
For rope bondage? Yes I do expect to be paid for that, because I don't need more rope bondage in my port. But I did a lot of tf to get bond pics I was happy with in my book so that people WOULD hire me for that. Work with new models! They are more likely to tf when they need something to help their career along. The smart ones anyhow. 
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
I think most models expect pay for rope bondage because it is a specialized type of modeling, and very strenuous. Also, the photographer generally has commercial rights and can sell images should the photographer choose. The model does not have the same ability, unless a special agreement is made.
Maybe you will have more luck with models if you offer them some prints to sell on their site, versus a traditional portfolio usage agreement.
Otherwise, just find people who have a personal interest in rope bondage who would find it worth trading for.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
indeed - "an industry" versus "the industry" - the latter being the place where professional photographers make money.... Professional photographers also can make money from shooting for the Internet, as there is a constant need for content. Also the wedding and portrait industry is still a place where it is possible to make a decent income. So the fashion industry is not the only industry where models and photographers can make money.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
AJScalzitti wrote:
I don't think I would go that far, that is sort of like saying collecting beanie babies is an industry... IF collecting beanie babies were able to pull an income of in the $10's of thousands per month as some solo model sites were able to do back in the early 2000's, then alright. There are still models making good money on the internet even though it's no longer like the wild west period of the late 1990's on up to the mid 2000's when it was all new territory. The FACT is that fashion photography and modeling are far from being the "only" thing out there to make money at. Models can make money doing art school/nude, glamour nude, commerical/catalog, tradeshow/car show, bondage, fetish, erotica, so on ... besides owning their specialty website if they have the personality for it, and perhaps branching off into other things to combine their talent with music or dance. I know I'm only scratching the surface on what modeling paying gigs are out there. So what if I say that "Internet modeling" is an industy?
As for photographers, there is portrait, wedding, or other events to shoot. There are those who make a decent living shooting food. I shot the wedding for a couple who were food photographers with their studio built into a kitchen. There are those of us who have made money shooting sports and other journalistic content, although with the outragous number of people with cellphone cameras and the Internet, photo journalism is getting harder to make a dime at! Some landscape and seascape photographers are still able to make money selling at art shows and events. Also I know I am only scratching the surface here too, but you get the idea, right? Shooting fashion is far from the only "industry" for photographers and models. Far from it!
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2288
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
not me, that's for damn sure. 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I think this is a rather simple question to answer.
If Person A brings more value to the shoot than Person B, then Person A gets paid.
If Person B brings more value to the shoot than Person A, then Person B gets paid.
If both parties see value to doing a trade and both contribute equal amounts to the shoot, then it's a TFP.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Shot By Adam wrote:
I think this is a rather simple question to answer.
If Person A brings more value to the shoot than Person B, then Person A gets paid.
If Person B brings more value to the shoot than Person A, then Person B gets paid.
If both parties see value to doing a trade and both contribute equal amounts to the shoot, then it's a TFP. Absolutely the simplest and therefore the best explaination ever! 
Photographer
No One of Consequence
Posts: 2980
Winchester, Virginia, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
generally whoever is bringing more to the table gets paid - it's not a clear cut model pays photographer or vice versa -
but *here* in model mayhem, it is mostly about models getting paid - it's not the real world or real industry - this place is about the internet modeling phenomenon.... Pretty much the case.
More often, there's disagreement as to who is bringing more to the table. There are lots of people - on both sides of the equation - who have comically over-inflated opinions about their worth.
Photographer
No One of Consequence
Posts: 2980
Winchester, Virginia, US
Julia Francesca wrote:
For rope bondage? Yes I do expect to be paid for that, because I don't need more rope bondage in my port. But I did a lot of tf to get bond pics I was happy with in my book so that people WOULD hire me for that. Work with new models! They are more likely to tf when they need something to help their career along. The smart ones anyhow. That's entirely reasonable, and a very rational take on it.
a raw muse wrote:
I think most models expect pay for rope bondage because it is a specialized type of modeling, and very strenuous. Also, the photographer generally has commercial rights and can sell images should the photographer choose. The model does not have the same ability, unless a special agreement is made. Plus, it's a matter of supply and demand: there are a lot more photographers who want to shoot bondage than there are models (or photogenic people in general) who are willing to do it on camera. The demand is so high that fetish work is probably one of the few genres where a MM model can reliably get paid work with a bad portfolio and no experience.
Slightly off topic, but personally, I don't want to shoot rope bondage with a paid model. Or be paid to tie someone up, for that matter. I've done both and I was less than happy with the experience in both situations.
Doing it for money trips a part of my brain which says "this isn't REALLY consensual," which makes me feel physically ill. To me, bondage is more intimate than kissing, more intimate than fucking. I'll freely admit it's a completely irrational squick, but that's how I feel. So, I just don't do any kind of scene photography at all anymore, or exhibit any of the work that I have done. I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to tie up anyone for pictures who wouldn't want me to tie them up socially.
Another issue I have is that rigging and photography both take a great deal of attention to detail. I find that trying to do both simultaneously is too much workload - the skill sets involved are just too different to switch back and forth effectively.
Plus, I kind of feel that if I can't do fetish work that's on par with folks like Ken Markus or Barbra Nitke, it's just not worth the effort. Strangely, I don't feel that way about any other subject matter... I'm not hung up on shooting landscapes even though I know I'll never be an Ansel Adams.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Francisco Castro wrote:
I think the OP is talking about photos that are not commissioned by a client for commercial purposes.
OP-- to answer your question, whoever wanted/needs the photos. If I have a specific project in mine, I would pay a model. If a model needed my services to update her port, I would expect compensation from her. In my opinion, nothing dictates compensation more than the local supply & demand of talent. If there is only one model within 300 miles, it is likely that the model can demand to get paid. If there are tons of models in the local area, it is likely that the models can't get paid because there's always someone around who will work for TFP (or will pay photographers).
Do note that we like our models very young, and few young folks have the wherewithal to be able to pay photographers. I suspect that most photographers will not be able to make much of a living with wannabe models as his clients.
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
Most models require payment for any bondage or fetish related shoots. Most clients will book models for bondage/fetish shoots just based on other types of photos, so bondage photos do not have a strong portfolio value.
Based on those factors, most high quality models open to fetish and bondage work will only work for pay.
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54196
Buena Park, California, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks If neither party is to be compensated, then neither party is expected to pay.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Christopher Hartman wrote:
If neither party is to be compensated, then neither party is expected to pay. I disagree. The photographer gets the copyright, and the copyright is not worthless.
Photographer
Mikey McMichaels
Posts: 3356
New York, New York, US
SurrealPhoto wrote:
With shoots where neither party is compensated; who is expected to pay who and why?
Would be nice to here opinions on this one.
Thanks Whoever wants to do the shoot the most.
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 548
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Julia Francesca wrote:
For rope bondage? Yes I do expect to be paid for that, because I don't need more rope bondage in my port. But I did a lot of tf to get bond pics I was happy with in my book so that people WOULD hire me for that. Work with new models! They are more likely to tf when they need something to help their career along. The smart ones anyhow. Well, hello there! How you doin'?
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