Seattle Photo wrote:
that doesn't hold water too well either unfortunately...i hear ya, but would you take advice on government from inside the White House?

i think that you can look at someone's portfolio and find out all you need to know..pretty much

;lol

People look at my port and repeatedly confuse me for someone who knows what I'm talking about.. This is the internet.. Pics can be faked.. Bios can be lied about..  Not that either of those are really the issue..

But there's a difference in quality of advice from someone who does TFP, to someone who's run a successful portrait studio, to someone who's shot fashion photography for umpteen years and has been on the runways and in the magazines - as that advice applies to a would be model..

And for the most part people expect the clueless to be able to decipher what's what, and then get mad at them when they make mistakes..

I'm just hoping the collective works of wiser minds might think up a way around that.

ravens laughter wrote:
blowing smoke up asses is a hobby of mine.... why desperage that??


Here are some pros I know...

Escalante
Israel Colon
Incident Photo
Marko Cecic-Karuzic

Not desparaging.. It's what I do, too..  Trying to find a happy medium between the pros and the plebes as it always seems to be something under contention..

I used to argue all the time with area291.. Because he had a horrible attitude..  I didn't generally argue with his points, but.. He eventually got frustrated and left (not over me, I think..)  And I hear about others leaving as well, and that's a shame..

I don't think we should be setting out special "pros only" cushions.. But I don't want to drive anyone off, either..

Seattle Photo wrote:
well, who wants to take thee time to compile a list like that and that could be faked too.

i mean if people are using fake pictures in their portfolio or lying about themselves, that can't hold water for long.  that is one fo the reasons that you join a photo org like APA, ASMP, EP, PPA, Etc

Jim

The title was tongue in cheek.. I'm just asking for ideas...

ravens laughter wrote:
blowing smoke up asses is a hobby of mine.... why desperage that??


Here are some pros I know...

Escalante
Israel Colon
Incident Photo
Marko Cecic-Karuzic

Well, three out of four ain't bad.

I also have to disagree that you can tell who is able to give competent advice from a portfolio.  The ability to take good pictures simply means you have the ability to take good pictures.  It might also lead to access to working models and some understanding of the agency system, but often it does not.  It might lead to a substantial commercial career, in which you interact with ad agencies, clients, model agencies and such . . . or it might not.  A photographer might learn something real and valuable from such contacts, or he might not.  He might tell the truth, or he might say something entirely false because it serves his purposes.

On the other hand, someone who has worked as an art director or ad account exec, in a model agency, or with a magazine that routinely hires models may be able to give excellent advice, even if they can't shoot their way out of a paper bag.

Pretty pictures seems to me no warrant that anything that comes out of his typewriter will be worth listening to and following.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
I spend a lot of time being argumentative and questioning the logic of things around here..  Advocating for the "little guy", and blah, blah..


It doesn't mean I'm not going to keep arguing that everyone should be nice from my Utopian la-la land where puppies and lollypops fall from the sky, but.. If you serious about making it to a runway or a magazine cover, or the inside of a JC Penny's catalog.. You should know who's real and who's blowing smoke up your ass..

Any thoughts on this?

Yeah.  Unfortunately they go over two sentences, a danger in MM land.

While I would think it's beneficial for folks to know who's who, on the other hand, I don't know that I wish the influx of any extra MM drama upon any of the white list guys and gals.  Lightning rods if you were.

Here's where I see the problem.  Respect.  Plain and simple.

I know, I've had some pointed discussions with some "white listers," but it wasn't out of spite or drama, it's because I felt strongly about my points and they about theirs.  But disagreeing about a point is wholly different than lack of respect.  Someone who has dedicated a number of years to their craft and who comes from a place of integrity deserves respect.  You may disagree, but you need to come to a place where no one's dignity is lost.

The other issue is brown nosing.  I'm one of those people that isn't impressed with status or labels but rather quality.  That's why I very much am inspired and enjoy the thoughts and input of a number of "non-pros" on this site.   And pros whose work I respect, or whose outlook on life I enjoy, I gravitate towards.  Isn't that the way it should be?   As a human, do you really need a gold star by someone's name for you to determine how you feel or wish to relate to them?

KM von Seidl wrote:
...free of BSartists would be a worthy endeavour, I think.

but... but... then where would *I* go?

Jay Bowman wrote:
I suggest diligent research and more than a little quiet observation.  It's helped me stumble upon an industry person or two whose offered me advice here and there...

Agreed. Though I'd say a LOT of quiet observation and I'd add several non-industry types that are just very competent.

Ched wrote:
I guess listing the helpful people would be easier than listing all the hordes of burned-out cynical ones.

Oops... that eliminates me right there...

Ivan123 wrote:
...and I would dutifully answer questions until I realized that there is a technology even older than film that these people were not exploiting, called "books."  People were just too stupid and lazy to look something up, read a chapter in a book, so they send a question into the ether knowing someone who has learned it already will write them a response.  Go buy a book.

My point is that experts in the field might see the value of expertise, but most people not only fail to recognize expertise, they don't really want it, they don't even think it exists, all information is equally valid and failure is due to bad luck.

Ka-boom...




Okay, here is my gripe and it's nothing against you.  Also, I've nothing against reading either; since my actual decision to become a photographer preceeded the purchase of my first camera by 6 or 7 months, I spent that time reading every book on the shelf at Barnes & Noble and when I was done there I did the same thing at the Borders down the street.

Anyway, my issue is this, at what point do the new-learners cross from being knowledge seekers in search of wisdom to being "too-lazy-to-pick-up-a-book"?   

This is not an attack at you in any shape, form, or fashion.  I'm genuinely curious because I consider myself as one of those seeking the knowledge.  And I'm certainly not suggesting that all pros should open up and share and answer all questions of anyone asking. 

Just not clear on how people make the determination.  It is, admittedly different for everyone, but I see many who make the blanket statement of "I'm tired of helping people who aren't trying to help themselves first" and in the process they effectively close themselves off from the people who are trying to help themselves.




(not saying that you're one of these people, your statement just made me think of it)

W.G. Rowland wrote:
If UdoR had Photographer, Fashion under his name.  And Raven had Photographer, Art (or even "Other").. I might have some perspective to add to the story..  Once I had that I might be inclined to click an avatar and see more..

But Bill, who decides what the words under the name ought to be?  When Udo says he's a fashion photographer, it means something.  When some newbie in South Dakota who thinks he's shooting fashion because he hasn't talked any girls out of their clothes yet says it, it means something else entirely.  Do we have a committee vote on whether or not the claims are justified?

Of the last six tearsheets I've gotten, five were haute couture fashion.  But what I like to shoot for myself, and what I offer models, really isn't, at least most of the time.  Nothing on my MM profile is truly "fashion".  Am I a fashion photographer?  Can you suggest a test for what kind of photographer people are, that they can apply to themselves?

TXPhotog wrote:
Can you suggest a test for what kind of photographer people are, that they can apply to themselves?

I'm presently searching for just such a test for myself.  No leads at present...

TXPhotog wrote:
Meela, I don't think it's hard to figure out who actually works in the business.  (I don't, for instance.  My profile says so.)  A combination of reading what they say about themselves and comparing it to their portfolio tells that story with pretty good accuracy.  Even so, I don't perceive a huge rush of wannabes to the doorsteps of these supposed gatekeepers.  Even the "gatekeepers" who advertise that is what they are, and solicit such folks to sell them something, have trouble getting enough interest.

The much harder point is in figuring out who, in addition to working in the business in some way, has paid attention to how the business works.  Simply being "in it" isn't enough, as we have seen repeatedly here.

And I'm constantly surprised at who really does know stuff.  Some I expect:  Richard (oldguysrule) is obvious.  Udo is obvious.  So are quite a few others.  Some aren't.  Lately a 25 year old model in Detroit has made some remarkably sound, even-handed, knowledgeable posts about the industry.  It's likely at that age, and with her limited exposure to it, that she's not a well-rounded expert, but she has chosen to speak on things she knows about, and has done it very well and authoritatively.

Another one is a frequent (T-shirt level) contributer, a photographer who lives in Oklahoma.  I'm the first to be careful about making judgments just on the basis of geography - but nothing in her profile suggests a vast amount of industry knowledge.  Still, just about everything I've seen her say, on a wide variety of industry subject, has been dead on.  She is, in my mind, a White-lister, despite the lack of an obvious, objective reason to say so.

And there are many more.  This notion of Bills is a good one, but damned hard to implement.  And whoever you choose "in", there will be twenty more who demand to know why they aren't in, despite, in many of those cases, obvious reasons for disqualifying them.

I agree that many of the "white-listers" are easy to spot. As stated at the very end of my.... rantings (lol).....I just feel they should be the ones to say whether their names be placed out there for everyone to know.

Meela

Meela wrote:
I just feel they should be the ones to say whether their names be placed out there for everyone to know.

That's probably a good idea, but in my experience it doesn't matter much.

Jay Bowman wrote:
Anyway, my issue is this, at what point do the new-learners cross from being knowledge seekers in search of wisdom to being "too-lazy-to-pick-up-a-book"?   

This is not an attack at you in any shape, form, or fashion.  I'm genuinely curious because I consider myself as one of those seeking the knowledge.  And I'm certainly not suggesting that all pros should open up and share and answer all questions of anyone asking. 

Just not clear on how people make the determination.  It is, admittedly different for everyone, but I see many who make the blanket statement of "I'm tired of helping people who aren't trying to help themselves first" and in the process they effectively close themselves off from the people who are trying to help themselves.

I certainly did not mean to slam everyone who was less than expert; I might have more than average knowledge of some things but I certainly do not consider myself "expert" at photography.  I admit, I am a person who tends to turn to books for information.  I have never taken a photography class and I am always amused when people say I am "self-taught."  Huh?  I am NOT self-taught, I learned how to develop film and print paper from the 1973 edition of The Amateur Photographer's Handbook.  I learned kalitypes from The Keepers of Light.  I didn't make this stuff up out of my own head.  Some people learn better from one-on-one instruction or in a class.  My point was not to slam people who want to learn.  And people who are expert always want to learn. But I think that a lot of people, I would guess the majority, want whatever they do to be first and foremost easy. 

I STILL use film and paper so the knowledge I have no one wants anymore but when they did I was always excited when someone asked me a question.  And I NEVER said "Trade secret!"  I always tried to help.  I guess I was just musing on the hopelessness of the forum format.  If you want help, identify someone whose work you admire, ask a SPECIFIC question and I bet three out of four times they will help you.  Also note that what is being discussed here is (I think) a combination of identification of (1) people with technical knowledge and (2) people who know "the industry" however you define that.

Ivan123 wrote:
I STILL use film and paper so the knowledge I have no one wants anymore but when they did I was always excited when someone asked me a question.  And I NEVER said "Trade secret!"  I always tried to help.  I guess I was just musing on the hopelessness of the forum format.  If you want help, identify someone whose work you admire, ask a SPECIFIC question and I bet three out of four times they will help you.

There may not be many who still shoot the film but there are people out there (such as my hubby) who shoot film and often ask questions to those who they know shoot film. Its not always easy to find these individuals though.

Meela

W.G. Rowland wrote:
I spend a lot of time being argumentative and questioning the logic of things around here..  Advocating for the "little guy", and blah, blah..

I don't like seeing people get their feelings stepped on, BUT!

For those of you who are serious about getting into the business.. There's plenty of HARD lessons to be learned and there are some folks here who actually are in the industry that can help you..

The snag.. There's also a huge rash of middle tier and less folks who just like to dump on people and give BS info because it makes them sound important (at least to themselves)..

A lot of the pros get disgruntled with the place because their wisdom gets caught up in the crosswinds of bullshit and get treated as such..

I was wondering if there was any way to create a who's who list, so people might have some idea who they're talking to when they are giving or receiving advice.

It doesn't mean I'm not going to keep arguing that everyone should be nice from my Utopian la-la land where puppies and lollypops fall from the sky, but.. If you serious about making it to a runway or a magazine cover, or the inside of a JC Penny's catalog.. You should know who's real and who's blowing smoke up your ass..

Any thoughts on this?

Sounds pretty elitist to me, even if there is a shred of truth to it.  Plenty of talented people have no brains.  Enough people have significant jobs without the slightest idea of how to do those jobs.  I was one for a year and a half about 20 years ago, so I know what I'm talking about.  Back in the 70s, I think it was called the Peter Principle.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
...Utopian la-la land where puppies and lollypops fall from the sky, but...

Dude, that's fucked.  Who wants to clean up puppy guts after they splatter all over the ground.  Your idea of Utopia is seriously fucked up.  I hope you get hit by a car.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
If UdoR had Photographer, Fashion under his name.  And Raven had Photographer, Art (or even "Other").. I might have some perspective to add to the story..  Once I had that I might be inclined to click an avatar and see more..

See, there is a little problem right there.

If there would be a label "Fashion" under my name, it would limit what I am doing to just that... but I am also a photojournalist AND an artist, who not only had art exhibitions, but of whom (me) are also three documentaries in the making as we speak, and those are exclusively about my art photography and one that includes several aspects of my scope of activities in the visual fields.

I am sure that there are many more colleagues on here who have several lives that run parallel.

Here on MM, I talk and advise mostly about the fashion industry, because I am involved in those aspects... but there is so much more and I am certain that other colleagues limit their info on here to relevant topics.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
For those of you who are serious about getting into the business.. There's plenty of HARD lessons to be learned and there are some folks here who actually are in the industry that can help you..

The snag.. There's also a huge rash of middle tier and less folks who just like to dump on people and give BS info because it makes them sound important (at least to themselves)..

I think it's pretty common for forums for general public like this.
For example in medicine world they have separate professional forums and those where professionals interact with public. Same for biology, physics, IT.

Value of MM is in interaction of people with different exposure to photography and modeling, different level of experience.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
*shrug*..

I'm trying here, folks.. I'm trying..  I've been one of the pro-bashers (more by accident than intent, but still..)  I'm now trying to see it from the other side..

We just had an exodus of stylists..  Do I miss them.. Personally, no.  But, just because their expertise doesn't directly benefit me, doesn't mean they weren't doing a lot of good for others..

I'm pro people doing good things for others.. (Puppies can go screw themselves, Chris.. It's every dog for himself in my world..)

I didn't expect that my suggestion was a good one.. But for all those old hats who complain and complain (or complain and leave).. I thought an open topic on possible ways to improve the situation might bring brighter (and more interested) minds to the table.. 

What are the biggest complaints on MM?  From all sides?  What can be done to help improve them?

That's all I'm wondering about.

- We have professional talent in a lot of fields here who might be willing to help..  All of these should be entirely optional.. But if they are willing, what can we do to get them heard by those who can actually benefit from their advice..?

- We have a lot of inexperienced hopefuls looking for a niche.  Is there a way to get across that not every model is going to end up in Maxim or Vogue or Playboy (depending on their dreams), but more realistic expectations might lead to a niche that fits them..

- Can there be peace between the hobbyists ruining the industry and the pros ruining the hobby?  (Sarcasm)

- Can a Nikon ever truly be better than a Canon (Drunken Sarcasm..)

- Can I have pie.. (Going to bed now.)

I hope it is at least a cherry pie :}

ravens laughter wrote:
blowing smoke up asses is a hobby of mine.... why desperage that??


Here are some pros I know...

Escalante
Israel Colon
Incident Photo
Marko Cecic-Karuzic

I cannot find anybody by name but Marco. Would you give their MM #, so others can see their work?