TXPhotog wrote:
But are we really going to argue with Judge Judy?

I wont be arguing with her that is for sure

Meela

Nora_Neko wrote:
I don't get why she doesn't just make her own portfolio.It's not hard.

Exactly.  This should have been your response to her email as well.  On a friendly, career-advice level.  Her email really sounds to me like she's drifting through this, more of like a hobby or self-gratification than any sort of professional outlook on it. 

Buying a domain and getting it hosted (especially in her case, where there apparently are no nudes to display) is cheap.  In fact, my first portfolio was through Yahoo. 

You were unnecessarily harsh, and being impatient with uncommon sense is no excuse.  Be careful of what you put out in public.  It reflects on you as a photographer as well as a person. 

My own guess would be that a few models might look at that email (if they are in this forum at all) and think, "Hmm...Mean photographer."  Modeling involves a level of vulnerability, and if you come off offensively it'll usually show in the model's work.

Anyway, it's your portfolio.  It doesn't look like you are associating anyone on that site with nude modeling except the models who have nude images.  Keep it in for self-promotion, or take them all out for professional courtesy, but either way, you should make it clear (NICELY) that this is your portfolio and she would do best to get her own website.  It'll give her more flexibility as to what to put up, and a contact option for her as well.

TXPhotog wrote:
I would agree with you that there certainly are exceptions, including some magnificent ones.  But are we really going to argue with Judge Judy?

I like Judge Judy.  Sometimes people just need to not only be told they are stupid, but they need to be told in front of a national audience so that their friends and family can laugh at them as well.  Maybe, just maybe, they'll stop being stupid.

DigitalCMH wrote:

I like Judge Judy.  Sometimes people just need to not only be told they are stupid, but they need to be told in front of a national audience so that their friends and family can laugh at them as well.  Maybe, just maybe, they'll stop being stupid.

This is why we have Jerry Springer.  Seriously.

And for one of those "magnificent" exceptions, try this Vermont model:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=212167

I've never worked with her, never met her, and other than a year-long stay in Vermont (when she was...let's see...not born yet), have no known association with her.  And I don't mean to pin her up on the Hall Of Fame wall and weigh her down with unapprochable expectations.  Just thought her profile and port show her to have a lot of common sense for a 17-year-old.

TXPhotog wrote:
So why am I telling you this?  One of the recurrent themes of Judge Judy is that young people (in her mind, apparently up to early 20s, and certainly late teens) are stupid.  That's why we don't allow them to drink.  Her continuing statement is that it is only with age and experience that we move from automatic stupidity to whatever it is we are going to be.

I would agree with you that there certainly are exceptions, including some magnificent ones.  But are we really going to argue with Judge Judy?

No TX, I would never argue with Judge Judy.  I guess what I was meaning was that if we use young=stupid instead of "young and stupid" then it makes it seem that all young people should be expected to be stupid and we should just excuse it and not try to correct them.  Because there are enough old and stupid people out there to convince me that it doesn't always wane with age.

Scott Aitken wrote:
(1) I completely agree with your basic sentiment. That she is way off base, and is nuts to be complaining about how she might be judged by being in your portfolio.

(2) I think you badly mishandled it. You may not have intended it that way, but you're tone sounds completely insulting (saying her friend "has her head way up her ass", calling her "immature, short-sighted and ridiculous"). Most people, when receiving a verbal assault like this, will get their hackles up, and become completely defensive. Regardless of the rest of the content, she will likely not hear any of it because she will feel hurt and offended.

I think you could very well have made your points -- that only a small percentage of your work is nudes; that likely nobody will judge her based on other photos of other models elsewhere in your portfolio; that she if she doesn't like the other content of your portfolio, she is free to create her own portfolio and stop showing people yours -- without completely freaking her out. How you say something is sometimes just as important as what you say. With a little tact, you might have gotten your message across, and may have had more future successful shoots with her. Now she is likely to just get upset and ask you to take down her photos and never shoot with you again. Sounds like a lose-lose to me when it very well could have been a win-win. Too bad.

Ya, Ya.  I get it.  I didn't mean those comments you quoted to be directed at the model in question but at her friend that put the idea in her head.  The language didn't come across like that I guess.  I can be quite a prick when people get on my bad side--genetics.  But, I am not as bad as my dad and his dad before him :-)  Other than that I am really a nice guy :-)  (That statement is probably going to be misconstrude too...damned internet)

No TX, I would never argue with Judge Judy.  I guess what I was meaning was that if we use young=stupid instead of "young and stupid" then it makes it seem that all young people should be expected to be stupid and we should just excuse it and not try to correct them.  Because there are enough old and stupid people out there to convince me that it doesn't always wane with age.

I teach kids.  Depending on the age you're talking about, young=stupid.  Until we get lots of life experience, most of us get in over our heads at one point or another, and our flailing efforts to alleviate the problem actually make things worse.

And excusing them because they are young is perfectly fine--as long as you correct them anyway.  Most students I know (except the REALLY stupid ones) appreciate a respectful correction.  In fact, most of them appreciate it when you tell them something that will help them become better people BEFORE they make mistakes.  They know they make mistakes.  They'd rather not--you know, they're self-conscious, in case it slipped anyone's attention :-) --and anything we do to mind them of potential pitfalls (and do this in a respectful way) makes adults more respected. 

Maybe a dozen times over the course of my relatively short career, I've pointed out to the class in general (meaning it for one particular student but never making that apparent) that showering every day at their age is more appealing than letting plants grow from the dirt on their skin.  Every time I noticed that one person I had in mind began showering more frequently--even after gym in one case!  Kids know they don't know much (it's why they insist they know more than anyone else, imho--insecurity).  To point them in the right direction with dignity and respect makes them quite happy.

At least, that's my experience.

Mac Swift wrote:
"hey mac
its ****** i have something i am a little consernd about. Im just not sure about the web site now. before there a few tasteful nudes but now its overwhelming and it seems like thats all you do. I got a model to look at the site at my pics and she said i have to be very carful about things like for the reason that that is the way i will be portrayed. so if we could talk about that and find a solution that would be great. I would like to do the christmas shoot with Chyanne as long as its innocent cause i need more fun and smilly pics. not so serious. Thanx and soory if this upsets you but you have to see it from my point of veiw."

1. Too lazy or too ignorant to spell check

2. Too lazy or too ignorant to provide proper grammar

3. Too lazy or too ignorant to provide proper punctuation or capitalization

4. Too lazy or too ignorant to provide proper breakup of paragraph into intelligible text

5. Too lazy or too ignorant to provide proper forethought, sensitivity, politeness, common sense, or respect

All of this comes BEFORE the knowledge of Industry Standards and I will illustrate that as such:

NYC Photographer wrote:
“In a conversation the other day with one of my NYU buddies, we got to discussing shooting students  and it ended up in a fight about age consent and litigation  She and I decided to write down a short rant on the subject. The law is clear.

"It is illegal to shoot a minor in a sexually explicit manner"

Sure there is some variance on what could be considered sexually explicit, however it’s quite simple, if you aren’t showing her junk, then chances are you wont have any issues, just don’t take the film to Wal-Mart, those places are famous for calling the cops the minute they see skin.

I have shot with models implied and topless under the age of 18, any professional working shooter has, of course I don’t typically do it for a models book, but for a corporate shoot, where there are 20 people, believe me, laws are followed.

Facts are simple, the reason 90% of all supermodels or top pros aren’t from the US is because in the US we scoff at skin. But find a Euro model 16 years old and if its a fashion shoot, she will go buff and you’ll have a hard time getting the clothing back on her (had that problem once, now that damn near got everyone arrested!) No fashion model needs to advertise she does nude or implied fashion work, but out right saying she doesn’t, will get you the door.

Use your head, if your shooting just to be shooting and you want to undress an underage girl, then you should have your ass kicked and the line starts at my boot.

If the shoot has reason and requirements, then follow the law, even push the envelope, just don’t go over it and your good to go.

Models, don’t wanna show skin? Buy your boyfriend a camera and pretend, at least you’ll feel like a model. Does any model have to do nude work? Hell no, they can always find a new line of work.”

To begin with, the Model was completely out of line. So professionalism was already out the window because it was clear he was not only dealing with someone who was not professional about their complaint, request, and subsequent expectations, but someone who was grossly ungrateful, painfully self-centered, excruciatingly unknowledgeable, and heartbreakingly disrespectful.

I don’t think there is anything he could have written that would have addressed these issues more succinctly than he did.

Let’s say the situation was reversed. A new photographer with $1000 worth of equipment and no paid shoots to his name does a gig with Kate Moss. He goes to one of her websites and sees that she has nude photos of herself from other photographers. He writes the same type of letter to Ms. Moss. You see the point. An extreme example yes, but nonetheless illustrative of my point.

How do you react to that without setting a precedent of being a doormat to inexperienced talent in your profession? I don’t know of any other business situation other than Hollywood where people are put in there place more quickly than this one. Immature and inexperienced Models do NOT know how to differentiate between being in front of the camera and the real world with respect to being vain, conceited, self centered, and bloated with self importance.

…”nuff said

ravens laughter wrote:
well...
this is the thing, what ever she did... you reacted to it badly. And where as you can be upset at her for not wishing to shoot with you (which is really what i think it boils down to) but nothing will get resolved from that. Insted I think that you should focus on the email that you said that you sent her, and see how you can respond better next time. Insulting someone for what they feel is never a proper way of getting them to feel something different.

I am sure that the model was purely relieved that she told you no after she read that email.

Pretty judgmental of you sir. I may not want to shoot with you because of disrespectfulness to Religious Icons, portrayal of violence, sensationalist demonism, and support of warmongering.

I might consider it if when you post my Holier-than-thou and Wrought-with-Prudish-Purism photographs you will assure me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I won’t have to be posted next to any of the above mentioned filth.

JB wrote:

Pretty judgmental of you sir. I may not want to shoot with you because of disrespectfulness to Religious Icons, portrayal of violence, sensationalist demonism, and support of warmongering.

I might consider it if when you post my Holier-than-thou and Wrought-with-Prudish-Purism photographs you will assure me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I won’t have to be posted next to any of the above mentioned filth.

lol... i love you

such humor and witt.

JB wrote:
but someone who was grossly ungrateful, painfully self-centered, excruciatingly unknowledgeable, and heartbreakingly disrespectful.

The thought has crossed my mind several times--believe you me.  You are my new favorite person :-)

Mac Swift wrote:
"hey mac
its ****** i have something i am a little consernd about. Im just not sure about the web site now. before there a few tasteful nudes but now its overwhelming and it seems like thats all you do. I got a model to look at the site at my pics and she said i have to be very carful about things like for the reason that that is the way i will be portrayed. so if we could talk about that and find a solution that would be great. I would like to do the christmas shoot with Chyanne as long as its innocent cause i need more fun and smilly pics. not so serious. Thanx and soory if this upsets you but you have to see it from my point of veiw."

Geez, I'm still trying to figure out what a smilly pic is.... :-)

Mac Swift wrote:
So...I get an email yesterday (see below) from a girl I have shot before.  She doesn't have an online gallery of her own save for 4 images on OMP.  She uses my portfolio on photo.net to show people her images.  So here is the email she sent me and my reply:

"hey mac
its ****** i have something i am a little consernd about. Im just not sure about the web site now. before there a few tasteful nudes but now its overwhelming and it seems like thats all you do. I got a model to look at the site at my pics and she said i have to be very carful about things like for the reason that that is the way i will be portrayed. so if we could talk about that and find a solution that would be great. I would like to do the christmas shoot with Chyanne as long as its innocent cause i need more fun and smilly pics. not so serious. Thanx and soory if this upsets you but you have to see it from my point of veiw."

My reply:

"Hmm...nudes are not all I shoot.  Out of the 34 folders on my portfolio 12 of them exhibit nude work--that is 35%.  That hardly qualifies as "That's all I do."  It would seem as though that is what YOU and your "model" friend are focusing on.  How can you be betrayed as shooting nudes when you don't have any images of you being nude?  That is absolutely absurd.  That is MY portfolio...not YOURS.  Your portfolio won't show nudes because you don't shoot nudes.  Anyone looking to see what work you have done and are capable of will look at YOUR portfolio not MINE.  Would you take my portfolio to show another photographer?  No.  That "model" you talked to quite simply has her head way up her ass.  A photographer's portfolio is just that--the photographer's.  A particular model is not judged by  the photos a particular photographer may have done of other people.  Could you imagine if all models were judged by the other work the photographer has done??  If you are saying that you are offended by my nude work and would like your pictures removed from my portfolio then that is fine.  It is a terrible shame but I will remove them.  But saying that YOU will be judged by MY work is just immature, short-sighted and ridiculous.  Do you really think I am worried about being judged by what you do with another photographer simply because I have shot you?   Sounds a little silly doesn't it?  I am a little shocked that you think all I shoot are nudes when clearly the numbers I pointed out indicate otherwise.  If I have made you feel uncomfortable in any of our shoots I apologize as that was most certainly not my intent."

So, am I wrong here?  She has no right showing people MY work and then complaining about it.  You want to show your work then pony up some money and get a proper online portfolio of YOUR own.  In fact, potential photographers, clients, etc should never even see my work.  It's none  of their business.  This model friend should never have seen my portfolio if she was concerned about showing her work because she would have shown HER portfolio.  If the model said "Oh, here is some more of the work this photographer has done" then fine.  But using MY portfolio as hers and then saying that she will be judged by the work on MY site is completely out of line.  No?

KathyJean wrote:
Listen, Mac, you're just fine.  This person may not understand what the word "model" means and that modeling is the most basic form of acting.  It's work.  Images of her are exactly that:  images.  They don't have anything to do with a model's personal life, nor are they intended to be depictions of it.

You are my second favorite person :-)  You are so right.  I wish more "models" would understand that.