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Models on Model Mayhem expecting TFCD/TFP
Hey Model Mahyhem ( Models, Photographers and anyone else! ) --- Why is it that there are people that join this site and other model sites that expect for all photo shoots to be either that they will be getting paid for them or TFP/TFCD? I look at their pictures and they were taking by their friend or by them, therefore they have no experience modeling and they want TFCD/TFP photo shoots? I understand everyone wants to keep as much money on them as possible and not be spending it, however if a photographer does great work, has a huge portfolio full of all sorts of styles, why should he be shooting it TFCD/TFP when they def do not need to be doing so at all. I guess you can say, the photographer can be nice by doing the shoot for free, but why really though? Sometimes if I shoot a model TFCD and give them their pictures, even retouch a few from their shoot too, then their other model friend expects it to be TFCD too.......I hate it! lol In my mind, TFCD and/or TFP shoots should only be if the pictures will be helping the photographers portfolio, meaning it is something different, a cool, new idea, not your every park shoot or some head shots for free. I just get too many models who say to me, "O, I thought it was TFCD". What do people join this site to save money and not walk into a studio that will charge you? Ok, well I guess that is it for now........ Anyone who wants to put their opinion on this may do so now, thanks! Tim Baker Photographer Long Island, NY Oct 24 06 11:17 pm Link I understand where you are coming from but if I were a hot babe I'd expect photographers to offer me free shoots. In fact the hot looking models get offered free Test shoots from some of the best talents on MM. Now here's the kicker I don't think models should pay ANY photographer for any shots until they know the market they will work in. They also don't need to pay photographers who don't know how to shoot them so that the images they have will best market their look. Whats that you say, Tony? Aren't you cutting your own throat or photographers who do model comp images? Well, no I'm not. Look around this site notice how many wonderful fashion images you see of 5'2" models. What agency can use those and if a model paid somebody to shoot those to show a agency well she wasted her cash. Same goes for the end less glamour T&A we see. Nothing wrong with shooting it but models don't need to take that to their local agency. The first step is to research your market. Send a few snap shots to a agency then go from their. As far as getting models who will be willing to pay you. Well thats all changed my friend. Oct 24 06 11:29 pm Link I will do tfp as long as I have three brain cells to mush together to get new ideas for sets and lighting ideas. I will doTFP untill I feel my bookis ready to take to the local agencys and start testing models. After that I will do TFP to keep my lense eye sharp on a day I'm not booking 1000 days.. Oct 24 06 11:40 pm Link ::: gives Tony a slap on the back, the good kind ::: Oct 25 06 12:01 am Link Uhh... I think I'm confused.... If you're saing that everyone wants either TFP/CD or to be paid, and you don't like it, then what else is there?? Or did I miss something... I think you're lumping everyone together in one pot, and that doesn't work. Its individual choice to do whatever pleases people. For some, this site is a business. For some, this site is for fun. For some, it is a way to make some extra money. For some, this site is to work towards being a better photographer or model. Its not about the same things for everybody. I don't see a problem with anything that anyone asks for. Its up to you to decide whether or not the offer benefits you. If it doesn't, you simply pass and go find someone else with an offer that does appeal. I know that I had a photographer that worked with me on a TFP basis when I was very new. He took me under his wing and taught me a LOT of things that I didn't know. I was doing ok making money and such, but after I began working with him when he had some extra time, my methods really changed, and now I consider myself to be pretty darn successful. Where would I be if he had not offered me TFP? I certainly couldn't pay for his services. So that arrangement likely benfited me more than him (at least in my opinion... you'd have to ask him what he thinks). So why would he do it? Thats HIS choice to make, not mine. I can only accept the offer or decline it. I agree that usually TFP should be an arrangement that benefits both people equally, the photographer and model should both end up with images that can help futher their books or whatever the goal is (it could be to simply test out an idea, or whatever). But the choice is still up to the two peole negotiating. If you haven't gotten a good deal out of TFP, then thats your own fault (generic you). Its all about the negotiations. Timothy Baker wrote: See, you've got it. Don't let the offers annoy you. Counter offer with something that could benefit you. Such as: I'll give you the headshots you want for TFP/CD if you allow me to get some images for ____ project/idea that I have. If you can't use the model at all, then simply pass on the offer. Apologize and say you're schedule is too full or something. Oct 25 06 09:11 am Link I wonder how many of TFP be@ching threads is going to be in MM history. Oct 25 06 09:22 am Link I don't think that there is a problem with asking for a TFP/TFCD shoot. As mentioned before, it's really up to you to go along with it, or move on. Models can't always get paid shoots either. Personally, I don't mind shooting TFP, because I'm always up for expanding my portfolio. I'd rather have multiple looks than just a few. If I feel that I can really benefit from a photographer's work and he offers to pay me, I'd rather do TFP so that I can have the images. If a photographer's work isn't going to benefit me, then I won't do a TFP offer with him. I do understand what you're saying though. I think you're referring to very new models with disposable camera shots demanding a paid or free shoot. If you think the model can benefit your portfolio, why not shoot with her? I'd think that if they're polite about asking to shoot TFP, then go for it. If I were a pro-photographer, I don't think I'd pay a new model to shoot with me, unless they had a look I really wanted to capture. --Alexandra Oct 25 06 09:27 am Link If you don't wish to work TFP/CD with a model, don't. Simple really.. Plenty of us are willing to work TFP with new models.. I have no wish to spark a 'which is right' debate, but we all have the freedom of choice. Do. Or don't. Its as simple as that.  Oct 25 06 09:32 am Link I understand where ya coming from.. I like to go above and beyond the normal.. because you get tired of seeing the same ol shots.. i mean if you look through several different magazines or even people portfolios.. everyone has the same pose as the next person.. majority of the times its in the same setting.. So for those types of pics i say models should pay for.. cuz all they doing is increasing their port.. but the photog should or probably already have tons of the same poses and settings.. just with different people.. TFCD/TFP.. are pretty much for expansion of both parties.. that depics them from the rest of the crowed.. something they can show off or trend for the next season.. just my .02 -Mr. Weaver Oct 25 06 09:59 am Link You have to have something to offer in exchange. Oct 25 06 10:07 am Link Not all models are like that. I have no problem paying for pictures if I know that they will benefit my portfolio. However, I would have to contact them first. I can't stand it when a photographer says that he would love to shoot and then gives me his rates. If we can benefit from each other then why pay each other? If you want to make a profit off of me then why not pay me? If I like what you're doing and I want the images; I'll pay you. A lot of models and photographers, for that matter, don't get it. We have to sacrifice to get what we want. You get what you pay for. However, some of my best images were TFP. If you don't want to pay the models or do the TFP then just move on. Oct 25 06 10:15 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Good Advice and the primary reason why model photography is not an aspect of my commercial work... it just doesn't work on my level. Oct 25 06 11:19 am Link Experimental Photoworks wrote: You really have to like Mariah's approach to both modeling and her photography. Honest, direct with good business sense. Oct 25 06 11:21 am Link Guess I take the middle ground here. If a model has nothing in her port (pictures at the local Hooters or webcam shots don't count) then I feel justified in charging some kind of fee. On the other hand, I find that often I can satisfy both the model's and my own needs if I spend a little time talking about what we'd like to have after a shoot is done. Most often, we both win.  Oct 25 06 11:30 am Link I don't understand. Over the last twenty years, I have given young models full page quality photos and a CD, in exchange for posing for me. As a result, I have over 1000 pictures in my portfolio. It's a give give situation, what's the problem? Oct 25 06 11:35 am Link John Peri wrote: If it's not a problem for you, then that's good. Most people I've encountered here don't have problems with doing TFP shoots. If they do, then they should have reasons behind it (which is fine if they're justified). Oct 25 06 11:42 am Link If I wouldn't do TFCD I wouldn't be doing any model photos. When you live in the middle of cornfields and 75 miles from the neasest major city, a person don't get calls to do model portfolios that are willing to pay. I know I know if I was good enough they would travel 100's of miles to me. Oct 25 06 11:47 am Link I think for myself and many other photogs & models it comes down to two things: 1) Do you want to do any TFP work and under what conditions, and 2) what is the attitude of the person who's asking. I've been asked to to TFP work on many occasions. If I can see how my portfolio or creative interests would benefit (and if they seem like they'd be reliable) then I go for it if I have the time and energy. But I don't worry about saying "no" either. Sure the issue (#2) of someone who gets abusive or is just plain rude is a pain in the ass, but that's life. Some people are more mature and understanding of the wide range of talent on this site, and others have gotten misinformation about how easy it is to get free photos and that everyone will do it for free. They'll learn and figure it out someday, and many of them won't be around in a year. I've been on the receiving end of a "no, I won't do a TFP" and I'm always gracious. Hey, it's up to each person to draw their own line and learn to be okay with it. And there's someone for everyone on here from beginners to professionals. But be nice because the inexperienced person who you're annoyed with today may become someone you want to work with after they've worked their way up. Actually be nice anyway. Oct 25 06 11:59 am Link Timothy Baker wrote: This is the age old MM and more importantly, internet debacle with regards to the business of photography. Prior to online portfolios, the only way you could get in touch with models or photographers was either through agencies or local listings by phone. Meeting with someone in person or talking to them via phone strips away the proverbial mask or alias that the internet provides for users. Granted, the phone has its own level of "distance" (no pun intended), but it is quite marginalized when compared to the net. Oct 25 06 12:05 pm Link Madcitychel wrote: Significantly less than the number of posts complaining about the redundancy. Oct 25 06 12:41 pm Link I don't do TFP/TFCD anymore for that reason. Too many people come to [expect] it. I don't have the time to waste. I own and run a marketing company and investment company. I day the day to shoot someone for free and turn my focus away from other endeavors I potentially am losing hundreds if not thousands for that day. For that reason I WILL NOT spend a few hours of my time shooting models for free. Unless Jamie J wanted to shoot, then I'd shoot her for free Oct 25 06 12:48 pm Link Man, post like this just make me sad. First off, the OP's profile says nothing about accepting or not accepting TFP -- the closest it comes to mentioning this is "My goal is to find people to photograph who are either starting off in the industry or who have been involved for years." So, what's the big deal when a model asks for a TFP shoot? Other thoughts: How come we all jump on models who want to be paid, yet we give photographers a "slap on the back -- the good kind" for wanting to be paid. None of us invented photography -- we learned it along the way, and along that way, we learned from others. We have a debt to the art form, so I think there is nothing wrong with giving a little back. If you don't want to do TFP, then just don't do TFP. Photographers have their reasons for not doing TFP. Models have their reasons for not doing TFP. It is perfectly fine to decide not to do TFP. So, why come here to this forum & act like there's something wrong? Redundant thought: Geez! First we rag on models who want to get paid, now we rag on models who want TFP? That is so wrong! Oct 25 06 01:36 pm Link in the age of Digital Photography and the internet people can always go elsewhere. If someone believes a shoot to be TFP/TFCD, then things might be better to be cleared up prior to a shoot or test. Oct 25 06 01:40 pm Link I'll ask you two simple questions: 1. When was the last time you walked into a car lot, and for a first offer, you didn't get asked to pay a price that was way too high? 2. When was the last time you walked into a car lot, and didn't make an offer that was way too low? Why should modeling and photography be any different? Timothy Baker wrote: Oct 25 06 01:42 pm Link |
