Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Even if they meet beforehand, but the actual shoot is a nude shoot - could there possibly be THAT much revealed that the photographer had no clue about when they met?

Absolutely. Clothes can hide a lot.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
I won't go into much detail on the specifics of where I came from with this thread, but where should photographers draw the line when it comes to criticizing a model's body?

Within the bounds of courtesy and at the point where it no longer is their business.

If I'm hiring a model for figure work, most of my "criticism" would happen at the point where I choose whether or not to shoot with him/her in the first place. Once I've decided to shoot with him/her, then, if I feel s/he's got body problems, it's as much my fault (for choosing him/her) as it is his/hers. Indeed, it's probably more so because I had a choice in models and s/he has relatively little choice in bodies.

Lastly, there's always a line between rudeness and courtesy. If someone asks me if they look fat I can say "yes, you look like a manatee" or I can say "you could stand to lose a few pounds, I suppose." That's in response to a direct question. But if you're not asked, then it probably isn't appropriate to just offer an opinion. When asked, you can offer an opinion politely (but honestly). When you're not asked, you should consider how you'd feel if someone offered unsolicited opinions about yourself. If a stranger walked up to me on the street and told me my mustache looked "dorky" I would be taken aback. I like it. But suddenly I am questioning a part of my face. Arrrgh!

Your question boils down to 'are people rude' and the answer to that is glaringly obvious.

mjr.

ChristianBehr wrote:
I don't think telling a model she has weight to lose is mean at all.

I agree - but as stated prior, "if done right." I think that's the key.

Does a photographer have to be mean about it to get the point across?

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
If a stranger walked up to me on the street and told me my mustache looked "dorky" I would be taken aback. I like it. But suddenly I am questioning a part of my face. Arrrgh!

You have the best moustache ever. I would have sex with your moustache if I could.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
Your question boils down to 'are people rude' and the answer to that is glaringly obvious.

Actually, I think my question is 'what percentage of photographers are pricks?'

I told th model that I think te female form should be celebrated, not analyzed. But that may only apply to the type of shots I do. If I was shooting for Maxim and the model had love handles, then yeah, a discrete comment might be in order. But if I'm shooting artistic nudes on a beach or by some trees, then I WANT a more natural look - not some wann-be airbrushed skin-and-bones twig.

Could these type of harsh comments be part of the Howard Stern 'women should do whatever I say to look good according to me' atmosphere we live in, or has this always gone on in this business?

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
You have the best moustache ever. I would have sex with your moustache if I could.

And then there's the unsolicited remarks that are nice to get!

Have you ever noticed that people get bent out of shape if you walk up and say "your mustache looks STUPID" but react entirely differently when a pretty 19-year-old (who is young enough to be your daughter, *ahem*) walks up and says she'd like a mustache-ride?

mjr.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:

I agree - but as stated prior, "if done right." I think that's the key.

Does a photographer have to be mean about it to get the point across?

No one has a right to be mean.

People do it anyway.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
But if I'm shooting artistic nudes on a beach or by some trees, then I WANT a more natural look - not some wann-be airbrushed skin-and-bones twig.

Ouch...a skin-and-bones twig can't be natural? I'm pretty sure I don't force myself to look like this.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Actually, I think my question is 'what percentage of photographers are pricks?'

My guess is that it's a microcosm of society at large. You'd find just as many opinionated a!(&!6holes at a quilting society. At one end of the bell curve you've got the people who are always sweetness and light and at the other you have the people who enjoy taking others down a peg and do it whenever they can. My wife was part of a knitting circle for a few years - a women's knitting circle, for crying out loud! - and there was a similar "prick percentage."

And then there's the guys like me who can't make up their minds and flip violently back and forth, seemingly at random.

mjr.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
Ouch...a skin-and-bones twig can't be natural? I'm pretty sure I don't force myself to look like this.

Come on, Kaitlin, tell the truth. You weighed 175lbs before I locked you in the basement of my studio for 3 months and fed you nothing but tuna-fish cans dropped through a hole in the floor and the occasional bucket of water. It was a radical diet but it worked, huh!?

mjr.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

And then there's the unsolicited remarks that are nice to get!

Have you ever noticed that people get bent out of shape if you walk up and say "your mustache looks STUPID" but react entirely differently when a pretty 19-year-old (who is young enough to be your daughter, *ahem*) walks up and says she'd like a mustache-ride?

mjr.

Lol...I don't know...I like when people say nasty crap about me because it gives me an excuse to let out some of my pent up aggression But I'm glad you're flattered (BTW, you may be old enough to be my dad, but you're still younger than my dad...so it's okay )

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Come on, Kaitlin, tell the truth. You weighed 175lbs before I locked you in the basement of my studio for 3 months and fed you nothing but tuna-fish cans dropped through a hole in the floor and the occasional bucket of water. It was a radical diet but it worked, huh!?

mjr.

SHHHH!!! Dammit! I almost had everyone fooled! I HATE you! And I don't like your moustache anymore either!!

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
Ouch...a skin-and-bones twig can't be natural? I'm pretty sure I don't force myself to look like this.

No - I said wanna-be airburshed skin and bones model - the ones that think they HAVE to be superthin (to the point of illness) and want every little detail touched up so they look perfect. I know you're naturally thin (at least I think you've commented about it before). My apologies if that came across the wrong way.

e-string wrote:
How would that have happened to her if she had been totally honest about her sizes, etc.?

I think a model could be blatantly honest and still receive comments. If a woman is a size 6, for example, could she actually be a size 4 with a little extra weight? If so and she says she's a 6 (because she is), the photographer might comment on her extra padding, yes?  I don't know if this was the case I mentioned, but just throwing it out there.

Perhaps I can find out from the model myself what the photographer commented on (if she even wants to discuss it). It certainly would shed more light to whether or not the photographer was an ahole or not.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:

No - I said wanna-be airburshed skin and bones model - the ones that think they HAVE to be superthin (to the point of illness) and want every little detail touched up so they look perfect. I know you're naturally thin (at least I think you've commented about it before). My apologies if that came across the wrong way.

No...I knew you didn't mean it like that, but I was just letting you know how it could've been taken You're complaining about people bitching about models being too fat...well...ain't nothing wrong with a model being too thin if there's nothing wrong with a model being too fat.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:

I think a model could be blatantly honest and still receive comments. If a woman is a size 6, for example, could she actually be a size 4 with a little extra weight? If so and she says she's a 6 (because she is), the photographer might comment on her extra padding, yes?  I don't know if this was the case I mentioned, but just throwing it out there.

Perhaps I can find out from the model myself what the photographer commented on (if she even wants to discuss it). It certainly would shed more light to whether or not the photographer was an ahole or not.

If you go by measurements, there's no confusion about sizing. The only thing I can think of that a model wouldn't be presenting is the shape of her body, like perhaps less-than-perky breasts, cellulite, certain areas not toned, etc. But generally those sort of things show in pictures, unless they're about to shoot nudes which she has never done before.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

No...I knew you didn't mean it like that, but I was just letting you know how it could've been taken You're complaining about people bitching about models being too fat...well...ain't nothing wrong with a model being too thin if there's nothing wrong with a model being too fat.

I don't have a problem with overweight models OR thin models. Hell - I'd love to do a shoot with you and Shyly together. The possibilities would be infinite.  Someone needs to coordinate that shoot!

I just don't think it's a photographer's job to tell the model how to look, unless he feels decieved about what he thought he was shooting when she showed up, and I just hope it doesn't go on that often.

e-string wrote:
The only thing I can think of that a model wouldn't be presenting is the shape of her body, like perhaps less-than-perky breasts, cellulite, certain areas not toned, etc.

I imagine this might be the case with the model I spoke to, but I imagine this is the case a lot of the time. No model is "perfect" and I imagine there is always some X-factor regarding a model's body that might catch the photographer my surprise if he's expecting perfection.

JulieB wrote:
Thank God no one's said anything like that to me. I don't pretend to be a fashion model, and I think my port reveals that I am more "natural." I know however, that me just walking around naked looks very different than me posing, because I know which areas of my body are problematic photographically, and I pose tweaking those issues as best as I can.

I look at your port and don't see problems with your body. You hae a great figure for artistic photos. But I suppose some hotsy-totsy photographer could nitpick you to death because it's not what *HE* wanted.

ActionShots Photo wrote:
There are different circumstance that bring different reactions to place here...

1) A model paying a photographer to shoot his/her pictures... the photographer better just keep his mouth shut and shoot the pictures unless specifically asked.

2) A photographer paying a model... should have known going in before agreeing to pay what the REAL sitaution is and should keep his mouth shut.

3) Colaborative session (TFCD?)... shoot and enjoy, make the best of it (ALL are beautiful in their own unique ways), and suggest some ideas. If a model wants to do such and such, there is a market for everything... if they want to do something else, this might be a change to consider.

Above all, as a photographer, enjoy the challenges. They make you a better photographer. Everyone can get great shots of the rose garden, it takes a talent to get great shots of the sewer.

Just my opinion...

This is correct, context is needed here.

So what kinda session was it? If it was a paid pro/commercial job, then yes, he lacked tact and was a total ass.

If it was a "let's just get together and shoot" sorta thing; he shoulda been bitch slapped upside his way-too-big-head. And he's still an ass.

Sleepy Weasel wrote:

I agree - but as stated prior, "if done right." I think that's the key.

Does a photographer have to be mean about it to get the point across?

No no meaness is needed at all.

If she is of a body type that she can't sell to her market no one will hire her she will just fade out...or find a new market...or start posts on MM asking why she makes no money or why no one will shoot with her. 


Just be polite and say "your body type isnot what I need right now, and no I do not have any other refrences for you either"

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
...
Personally, if I ever witnessed it happen, I'd out the photographer. The last thing women need is some "pro" telling her to lose weight or making her feel bad because *HE* didn't like the way her body looked for a shoot. Yes - this is a business, but if you do it the right way, the model should not leave the session feeling like crap.
...

Some people are just blunt. The model should have known herself the he meant that he didn’t like her look or whatnot. I really doubt that the photographer was telling this model that everyone in the word thought she was a cow.

Some comments might seem brazen but it really comes down to, “If the photographer's view is respected (by you) then be happy for the criticism, if not then ignore it.”

e-string wrote:
How would that have happened to her if she had been totally honest about her sizes, etc.?

oHHH! That is a very good question.

Of course feelings are going to get hurt. People ask for honest opinions and then their feelings get hurt when it happens. Some people say photogs that want a fit or thin model are shallow, of course the choice is shallow...it's modeling. It's not for everyone.

Not that Im GQ or anything.