gdsandy wrote:
I had 3 shoots lined up for my LA trip 2 or 3 weeks ago.  One failed because of a co-miscommunication/  dates were muddled by both sides.  Another, the model freaked and asked me how I got her number (she emailed it to me) and the third just petered out from let's do this to let's see if we can to we can't.

I often travel to LA and Chicago and have often considered flying a model from another state but would they turn up?   Do you get a discounted rate?  No takingth thread off topic but it raised these questions in my head.

Gary

Personally, I lower my rates when travel is paid for. I think it's only far, unless it's a client paying and not a photographer.

It sucks that models screw things up for the rest of us that show up and actually work.

stan wigmore photograph wrote:
Sorry to be critical but just what is the problem.As you describe it ,you recieved an offer you liked with all the info needed.You responded correctly and then just a few days went by before it was canceled.If the shoot was to take place in a week I would say you have a case but you didn't give any time frame.Most shoots that I know of are usualy set up weeks,even months ahead of time.Any number of problems can crop up.A few days wait doesn't sound unreasonable to me for a response and atleast the photographer did respond and let you know.

Sorry for not being clear.

The issue I'm having is that I don't understand why photographers (i assume models do this as well) approach a model (or photographer) about a potential shoot, don't respond for days and then when they do- without explanation, they say "sorry, shoot's been cancelled"...

I just get the feeling that so many approach others without being organized and having a set shoot down...in other words, why aren't these offers serious?

And, I still want to know what the response should be...how long do you wait for someone to check their email?

-D

FaceReality wrote:
without knowing if this was a personal or client project it's hard to distinguish a problem.  art directors are notorious for spontaneous changes, clients change direction along with their socks.  personal projects can also be put on hold for a myriad of reasons.

i have a personal rule.  i keep my schedule in pencil.  it doesn't change until i see ink on a deposit check.

--face reality

It was a photographer- it's always a photographer that gets in touch- then I reply within 24 hours...I don't hear back for days, and after sending a follow-up email I get a response like "shoot's cancelled.. back soon because I don't want to hold dates open?? I don't know how to say something along those lines without being pushy...suggestions?
-D

oldguysrule wrote:
If you do not have at least 50% deposit in hand (and cleared), you do not have a shoot scheduled. For models, read... if you've not yet provided at least 50% of my required fee you do not yet have a shoot scheduled.

Just say NO to TFP

This isn't about TFP.

And I don't require a deposit first- so for those of us not requiring a deposit, what are we supposed to say to those that email...anything? or just not hold the dates open? I don't know how to be fair about it..

E|||B wrote:
Why didn't you tell me you were coming to LA?

I'd shoot with you in a heartbeat. You know that.

What do you have in mind?

I had a travel notice up in MM and on OMP :-)

Daniela V wrote:
I had three photographers waiting on answers for me because this one photographer was taking care of all of my travel...so should I just have went ahead and made plans with the other ones? How long is too long to wait? Should I write to the original photographer and state that I am currently making plans and that he/she should respond within 48 hours?

Just looking for some input and how others handle this situation.

Thanks...

-D

Since you ask, first let me see if I understand the situation. Essentially you were setting up what one would call a five member business syndication. One of your potential syndicate members offered to pay all your travel expenses to CA. In return, this potential member apparently was to receive a discount from you. Three other potential members were to join the syndication, each presumably putting in something of value to you. However, as originally set up, these other potential syndicate partners would pay nothing toward your travel. Did I get it?

First, five way deals are always tough to manage, you'll get better with some practice. Second, it's just business and someone has to be in charge, in this case that's you. Your deal, you make the rules. Until the money is in, it's all just talk. Go to the other three potential syndicate members and explain that the situation has changed. Say what your expenses are and how you expect to be paid. You may want to add another syndicate partner, each partner paying 25% of your travel. Tell your partners how many members you will accept. Set up a PayPal account and receive all deposits, with a promise to refund all deposits if everything is not in by a given day (again your rules, you pick the day). BTW, if the deposits are not in, you are free to accept real offers from any other acceptable source.

As you can tell, these things fall apart all the time. It doesn't mean anyone is bad or whatever, it's just business.

dfstudios wrote:

Since you ask, first let me see if I understand the situation. Essentially you were setting up what one would call a five member business syndication. One of your potential syndicate members offered to pay all your travel expenses to CA. In return, this potential member apparently was to receive a discount from you. Three other potential members were to join the syndication, each presumably putting in something of value to you. However, as originally set up, these other potential syndicate partners would pay nothing toward your travel. Did I get it?

First, five way deals are always tough to manage, you'll get better with some practice. Second, it's just business and someone has to be in charge, in this case that's you. Your deal, you make the rules. Until the money is in, it's all just talk. Go to the other three potential syndicate members and explain that the situation has changed. Say what your expenses are and how you expect to be paid. You may want to add another syndicate partner, each partner paying 25% of your travel. Tell your partners how many members you will accept. Set up a PayPal account and receive all deposits, with a promise to refund all deposits if everything is not in by a given day (again your rules, you pick the day). BTW, if the deposits are not in, you are free to accept real offers from any other acceptable source.

As you can tell, these things fall apart all the time. It doesn't mean anyone is bad or whatever, it's just business.

Who are you going to pay..the model that wants a deposit, or the one that doesn't require one?

What's your opinion on requiring a deposit?

Daniela V wrote:
Who are you going to pay..the model that wants a deposit, or the one that doesn't require one?

What's your opinion on requiring a deposit?

In this deal, my opinion does not matter. It's your deal, you make the rules. You need your travel expenses paid or this deal is dead. That means you require a deposit. Nothing wrong with asking for the deposit up front.

Daniela V wrote:
I don't know how to say something along those lines without being pushy...suggestions?
-D

photographer:  i have a project i'm working on and would love to have you involved.  here's the particulars.....yada....yada....

model:  great.  i'm interested.  i'll put it in pencil in my book.  i'll need a non-refundable deposit to firm up the booking.  when i receive that i'll put it in ink.

photographer:  uh, gee.  i'm not fully prepared to do that.

model:  that's ok, you'll still be in there in pencil and if nothing else comes up prior it might work out.  but, if another booking comes up i'm sure you'll understand that i'll probably take it.  let's keep eachother posted along the way.
---
it doesn't need to be pushy at all.  it's just business.  people that do business should have an understanding of that.

--face reality

gr82bart wrote:
Sorry Daniela, but it sounds like the photographer was a flake from the start. But since there was $$$ involved, maybe you turned a blind eye to the red flags when you shouldn't have?

Regards, Art.

What red flags are those?

I'm stating that this happens all the time- that people throw out offers when they aren't real or aren't prepared..and aren't serious.

FaceReality wrote:

photographer:  i have a project i'm working on and would love to have you involved.  here's the particulars.....yada....yada....

model:  great.  i'm interested.  i'll put it in pencil in my book.  i'll need a non-refundable deposit to firm up the booking.  when i receive that i'll put it in ink.

photographer:  uh, gee.  i'm not fully prepared to do that.

model:  that's ok, you'll still be in there in pencil and if nothing else comes up prior it might work out.  but, if another booking comes up i'm sure you'll understand that i'll probably take it.  let's keep eachother posted along the way.
---
it doesn't need to be pushy at all.  it's just business.  people that do business should have an understanding of that.

--face reality

I like that- thanks :-)

gdsandy wrote:
I had 3 shoots lined up for my LA trip 2 or 3 weeks ago.  One failed because of a co-miscommunication/  dates were muddled by both sides.  Another, the model freaked and asked me how I got her number (she emailed it to me) and the third just petered out from let's do this to let's see if we can to we can't.

I often travel to LA and Chicago and have often considered flying a model from another state but would they turn up?   Do you get a discounted rate?  No takingth thread off topic but it raised these questions in my head.

Gary

Gary,

I fly a lot of models in from out of town. A vast majority of the models I shoot with, in fact. I have never ever ever in the past 10 yrs that I've been flying models in had a no-show. Local girls flake about 6 out of 10 of the time. But the girls I've flown in have never been a problem.

I think a part of it has to do with that I tend to check out a model much more thouroughly when I agree to buy her a plane ticket. References, etc. Also, I tend to target models who are active in the forums, shoutbox, announcements, etc. If they are active, it means to me that they actually have an interest in this whole model thing and aren't fly-by-nights. And besides, people who enjoy the site won't want to be known as a flake.

What I did when I was in Phoenix is I had a network of about 5 photographers. And when I spotted a model I wanted to fly in I would propose to the other photographers that I was doing so and if they wanted to shoot with her we'd split the travel costs. (of course, they had to negotiate a shoot with the model too). But most of the time I had at least 3 takers and the travel costs would be next to nothing. I'm hoping to start something similar here in LA.

Final bit of advice. Only fly models in who are near or will drive to a city where Southwest Airlines flies out of. Southwest has the best refund policy of any airline that I know of. You can cancel the ticket the day before the flight and get a full credit. And I've called a couple of times to verify that you can even get a full credit even if the model fails to get on the plane. Full credit. Including taxes, airport charges. And they don't charge you any fees. You get 100% of your money.

Granted, they won't give you a cash refund. But they will give you a full credit towards your next flight, which is fine with me since I know I will use it. So, even if they don't show up you really don't lose anything.

John Jebbia wrote:
I've heard of this happening alot from other models.

Part of me thinks that it's people just looking to stroke their ego to see if you'd say yes to them. Who knows. Then another part of me thinks that maybe at the time they figured they had a couple of months to save up the money but then realized at some point that they wouldn't be able to. And there's nothing more embarassing than admitting to a hot babe (you) that you're broke.

Also, factor in what time of day you're receiving a majority of these bogus offers. After 10PM? If that's the case they could either be drunk or sleepy and not really realizing what they are obligating themselves to.

Unprofessional. Yes. Something we all have to deal with? Unfortunately.

Oh. And by the way. Your page has been bookmarked since September because I've got a bunch of paying work coming up after the first of the year and I'll be contacting you to offer you one of the jobs. And that ain't no bull

Hey John! Thanks for commenting on this- what do you think about the whole deposit thing?

I'm looking forward to finally getting to work with you ;-)

Daniela V wrote:
Hey John! Thanks for commenting on this- what do you think about the whole deposit thing?

I'm looking forward to finally getting to work with you ;-)

Well, I think you'll be hard pressed to find people willing to pay a deposit. I know I wouldn't be too comfortable with it. For one, if the model no shows you really don't have a lot of of recourse. I mean, sure.. You could take her to Small Claims, but not without a lot of hassle. You'd have to find her, first. Then you'd have to serve her. And then go to court, possibly in her state.

And then there's the possibility that since she's already been paid half of her fee that she won't work as hard on the set. I always like to reserve the right to fire the model if she shows up drunk, hungover, wants to change the release, etc. If I've already paid her part of her fee it will be difficult for me to get the money back. And even more difficult for me to fire her since I'm already vested.

When I first started flying models in I would request that they had to pay for their own travel arrangements and I would reimburse them when they got here. I had no takers. You ladies never have any money!

I like the whole deposit idea. I just don't know how realistic it is. I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay it. Hell, it's already hard enough to find the paying jobs let alone making it even more difficult.

Oh. And I would have certainly set up a shoot with you when you are here. But unfortunately I have another shoot in Vegas the 25th-30th. If you wanna come out there for a day or two, awesome! But it wouldn't be a paid gig. All my money's going on the craps table.

Or we can just wait till after the first