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Dilemna with model's TFCD pics
I did a shoot with a model months ago and she finally got around to going through the proofs from the shoot. Originally, we got together to do a project shoot I wanted to do, but weather, look, and final shots didn't turn out the way I wanted, so I planned on reshooting the set with soemone else. After that shoot, we shot a ton more and ended up with about 125 total images. After sifting through everything, I picked out 6 shots that I liked, but ended up only using 3 or 4 for online display. Here's the issue I have now: she picked out 28 shots. Six were from the set I need to reshoot, so I really don't want those "out there" because I don't like how they turned out and don't want duplicates of this location and/or poses floating around. I originally even told her I didn't want to use any of those. Several other shots she picked need quite a bit of work, and many others are just slight variants from the shot before (for example, 1 she's smiling, the next she's not--but otherwise it's the same pose)....some shots I don't think should be used at all. Perhaps my first mistak was giving her access to all of the images, but I don't like hiding half the shots from the model. My release that she signed doesn't specify a limit on number of web versions I will create. What's my best angle to not have to give her all of these shots - or at least the ones I'd rather not have out there? She had specific post-work request on 4 shots, but many others will needthe same before I put my name on them. I've never really had this issue happen before and didn't expect her to pick 28 photos. Suggestions? Oct 11 06 11:37 am Link The way you explained it, you're really obligated to give the model all the shots she's chosen for herself. After all, it's not her fault you screwed up and have to do a reshoot. She acted in good faith; you're the one who's clearly acting in bad faith by not adhering to the terms of your original agreement with her. Oct 11 06 11:44 am Link Put your foot down! Stick to what was planned! A good reminder to put this type of issue in your release form. Also to, you may have your release form then a print out of several issues that you can type and stapel to your primary release contract and right in there on the primary just write or type "please read attached document" that is perfectly leagal and I have used that in my full time work which was given to me by my attorney! It also saves you from redoing all your contracts, letter heads etc. Hope that was some help! ~James~ Oct 11 06 11:44 am Link I think if you want complete control over the images you shoot, you either pay the model, or you come up with a written agreement for TFP shoots that spells out precisely what you are offering. Personally I think the concern about having "bad images out there" is HIGHLY over-rated. The harm done by having a few less-than-perfect images on a modeling site or two is just not a big deal, IMHO. But again, if you want to have that level of control over your output, perhaps the barter/partnership world of TFP is not for you. Regardless, if you intend to restrict the model's choices from TFP shoots in the future, make sure you inform them of this, or you're askin' for a cat-fight! A lot of models really do want to see everything, if for no other reason than that it helps them understand what works and what doesn't from a modeling point of view. Paul Oct 11 06 11:48 am Link You should agree on what the model get before you shoot. each person has their own idea of what is a good and what is a bad image. One way I colaberate with tfp models is I let them see all the shots on my small viewer at the shoot. They get to pick 20 images that they like, 20 tops (it used to be "the good ones but I have been getting better and the last model picked over 35" then I go over those 20 and pick out 9 or 10 for them, the best of the 20, and do my edits, them send them to model, then they pick 1 that they want to be printed. so it goes bakc an forth a bit but I don't get stuck editing oodles of crappy images, and they get a choice in the images that they like, and both are happy. Or conversly you could do the first 20 cull and let them to the 2nd 10 cull but that would involve putting up a proof page on the web and waiting a few days for images and I'm working for instent gratification generation. Just let the model know you can only edit a certain number of images and just edit those. anything you show to someone they will love it not matter how bad it is lol. Oct 11 06 11:49 am Link by James wrote: unless your full-time work is photography and your attorney was providing a document specifically relevant to the release of rights, i would suggest (and experience bears me out) that your recommendation is flawed. terms of the shoot should NOT be added, included or otherwise dealt with in a release. your shoot agreement should be a separate document, and has nothing to do with the model release. Oct 11 06 11:53 am Link Frank McAdam wrote: Well, to be fair, I didn't "screw up" the first shoot. I was going for a sunrise shoot and it ended up being overcast. Plus, her wardrobe and look ended not really fitting what I orignally intended and I wasn't going to push her past her shooting limits. That' why we spent more time afterward doing more shots in differnt locations. Oct 11 06 11:56 am Link To everyone else that's replied, I do limit printable images to 10. And as I stated before, this hasn't happened to me before. And I did mention to the model that I didn't intend on using anything from the "bad" part of the shoot. I think some of that got lost in the 2 1/2 months it took her to finally review the images. I'm not looking for a cat fight. And most of the shots she picked, I don't care if she uses them or not. But how do you limit bad photos? Sue, I could have put that I'll only give her 20 web versions, but what if she picks 20 shots that you don't like? I also don't necessarily like telling models which shots they can and can't have (as in not showing them everything). SOme models use images that I would never use, but if they like them, great! When does selection cross into 'beyond reasonable expectation'? Oct 11 06 12:04 pm Link Even so, this goes under next time. As in next time I will have a shoot agreement that clarifies how many shots the model is entitled to. Next time I won't shoot images that I know will not represent me well. Next time I will have the model send me snapshots of the wardrobe she intends to bring, or have my own, if the wardrobe is that important to the final image Next time... But THIS TIME you did send her proofs of images you had no intention of letting her use. THIS TIME you didn't state ahead of time how many images she can have. THIS TIME she is in the right. Star Oct 11 06 12:10 pm Link Frank McAdam wrote: So regardless of whether the photos turned out well or not, you're saying the model is somehow entitled to them? I don't think so. Suppose they were mostly black from underexposure. You're saying the photographer has to give them to her? Why? They're unusable in that state. Oct 11 06 12:18 pm Link I agree with some of that. What photographer goes out and purposely shoots bad images? I remove images that are 100% unusable (blurry, bad light, misframed, model blinked, etc.). It remoinds me of a model I had a beef with about this very issue. I cancelled the shoot over it because when I told her she'd pick which images to use, so didn't want me telling her which images she could use and insisted she wouldn't post bad photos...as if that never happens with models (I've had a few do that). Certainly I will update my release to say I will post only preview images (for models to select from) that I am comfortable releasing under my name. But I find it hard to believe that not many others here so far have ever had a model pick an image to use online that wasn't flattering, but you were "obligated" to give to them. Rick - the irony is that the model thinks they're good shots. I don't think thy're awful, but *I* wouldn't put them in MY book. I think there are 2 issues here: the shots from the location I want to reshoot (that I told her were unusable), and the amount of other shots she picked. The latter I can deal with...it's just going to take me longer to edit. The first issue, I guess I'm awaiting to hear her intent. I don't agree with a reshoot because we shot in 3 other locations after the main one to make sure she got usable shots. And it probably doens't matter, but I did pay this model for travel expenses to the location. Oct 11 06 12:36 pm Link So Shoot Me! wrote: I agree with you about the re-shoot. That is what I'd do myself to avoid having to release shots with which I was dissatisfied. No photographer, myself included, wants to release images whose poor quality will reflect badly on his reputation. This was not an option, though, that the OP had explored in his post. Nor, in the post, did he suggest paying the model for her time and work in lieu of providing her with photographs. His intent, if I understood his post correctly, was to reshoot with a DIFFERENT model and to give the first model as few images as possible. Oct 11 06 12:56 pm Link Well, you're right, your 1st mistake was letting the model view and pick from all the shots. Hopefully now you'll never make that mistake again. Let models/clients/agencies, whatever, pick from a subset of the shots which represent the best of the best only. That's just best practice and will eliminate this kind of issue, because you would never run the risk of shots being 'out there' that don't represent your best work. As far as what to do now.... I still wouldn't release to the world shots you aren't proud of... Let her choose from the few you are comfortable with. If she doesn't like that - move on - lesson learned. John Oct 11 06 01:05 pm Link i noticed that no models have replied, so here goes. i think it's pretty excessive and unreasonable to ask a photographer to touch up 28 photos. the most i have ever requested was 16, as when i asked the photographer he answered to pick as many as i like. i even split those into two groups, the 'must haves' and the 'if you get around to them.' even without details in the release, common sense should prevail. sure it's better to discuss these things beforehand, but i don;t think there's anything wrong with explaining to the model that the quantity is excessive and that you don;t have time to do that many photos, especially ones that will not benefit you (as that IS the point of tfp.) Oct 11 06 01:14 pm Link Try this. Say to the model "Look, you don't want that photo. You're perfect but the photo is horrible. I took a really bad photo. I mean I took a REALLY SHITTY photo. At that precise moent in time, I was a complete looser. I SUCK!!" It usually is very convincing. Trust me, I say it a lot. Oct 11 06 04:48 pm Link Advice for hindsight: In my trade MRF, I have that the model can disapprove shots. I add that I can veto shots simply by not releasing them. I have had models use pictures of mine that I didn't think were all that good. I sent them reasonable stuff along with marginal stuff, and they pluck out a marginal shot. Darn. I guess "marginal" is in the eye of the beholder. If I didn't want them to use it, I shouldn't have sent it. Happy shooting. Hope things are going well for you. Oct 11 06 05:31 pm Link If you thought the images were that bad, why did you show them to the model to begin with? I cull my images before posting them for the model's review so I can clear out any "oops" type shots. Or shots that aren't as good technically as I'd like. That way I don't run the risk of the model wanting an image that I don't necessarily want to represent my work. Either way, I hope you two are able to come to some sort of compromise! Oct 11 06 05:42 pm Link I agree with some of the advice given here. From my own experience I always explain to the model what the agreement is, before we even start shooting. 2nd, I always edited my shots before the model looks at the proofs. Discarding any shots you don't want. Oct 11 06 05:55 pm Link Little miss model butting in here with my two cents. Speaking from the experience of having worked almost exclusively under TFCD agreements, if there is not a specification as to the number of images to be chosen, she's entitled to what she chooses. As far as the bad images you never intended to use in the first place, you can do two things. 1) Try reminding her that you did not want the images from that set used, and you made a mistake in including them in the proofs for her to review. 2) Deal with what she's chosen, because although YOU did not intend to use them, She obviously is happy with how they portray her and SHE wants to use them. It's all in the wording. Oct 11 06 05:57 pm Link John Allan wrote: John is right on target here. Try and not show images you don't want shown. Oct 11 06 06:08 pm Link As another model weighing in on the issue here I have to agree with several others: If you didn't want the images used, then you shouldn't have given them to her to review. Thats not fair to her. Think about it from her point of view. "Oh, sorry, I can't retouch those because I don't like them...." In essence thats what you're telling her. In this situation its your responsibility to stick to what you promised her that you would do - which is retouch the images that she requested. I do think that if you handle the situation tactfully that you can ask her to choose 15 or 20 of her favorites from the 28 to retouch. 28 is a lot. I rarely ask my photographers to retouch, unless they specifically request me to do so. I'm willing to go with whatever they want. Keep in mind that its the model's opinion vs your opinion of the work. She obviously likes it for some reason - have you thought of asking her why? Remember, you were the one with the vision. The images didn't hold up to your vision for whatever reason. She either had no vision about what was being created, or had a different vision - and the results of the images suite her just fine. Its practicial for you to discuss it with her, but don't discount her opinion, that will only make her feel stupid. I certainly expect that next time you'll have a little more forethought into what you are agreeing to do to retouch prints, and are able to draw up that agreement before hand so that there is no questioning later. A simple page with what you do listed on it would be fine "we shoot for blah hours, within blah time I send you a CD, send me a list of X number of images you'd like retouched for web, and Y number you'd like in print within Z time (unless otherwise discussed), and I will have them back within blah time etc etc etc. I don't see why it would be unreasonable for a photographer to request that a model let him know the requested retouched images within a certain amount of time. After all, I expect the same treatment from my photographers. It should be simple: treat her as you would want to be treated in the same situation. Oct 11 06 07:23 pm Link i have something everyone will hate. i did a shoot with my niece i got a perfect portrait. it was so beautiful and perfect i was complimented at a pro lab about it by the manager. on the same roll i was learning manuel fill flash so i took half a dozen snaps. one was her in a very unflattering picture with hair nearly covering her face. to this day that ugly snap is proudly displayed at my moms house and my sisters. its fricken embarising , but they like it. you need to remember pictures are also for the people they are of , not just for us. i have a pic in my port of a 7yo girl , ( waist up red shirt ) little girls love that picture they think she looks cool like a supermodel. so when i shoot i know i need picks to make everyone happy , even if it makes me cringe to see my own photos. Oct 11 06 09:14 pm Link did you try talking to her an dexplaining things Oct 11 06 09:28 pm Link Chip Morton wrote: HA! Oct 12 06 02:26 pm Link Justin wrote: Thanks Justin - good advice. Oct 12 06 02:27 pm Link Kelly Talele wrote: The images weren't BAD per se, just didn't turn out the way I wanted and explained to ehr that I couldn't use them for what I had intended. I don't care if she uses them for agency shots or personal use, but I'd just rather not have them pop up online in case I do redo the shoot. Maybe explaining that to her would work. Oct 12 06 02:29 pm Link darkfotoart wrote: I agree 100%. I take this philosophy with me when I shoot. I told the model I'm glad she liked the way so many shots came out. I did a shoot this past weekend with a model that ended up wanting 19 shots. I couldn't blame her because she looked great in most of them. But she didn't ask me to do any specific editing (beyond normal color correction, lightening, etc. that I always do). Oct 12 06 02:43 pm Link O.K., what are you going to do with the pics? Sell them? Or just for your port? Here's my take. When I do TFCD I give the model ALL my shots, whether they came out good or not. Obviously not all will. If the mod chooses he/she can wait until I have edited/deleted the CD pics and can have that. Copywrite? I "share it". If the mod is PAYING me for the shooting, then he/she gets the copywrite and all the pics and ANY proceeds from using them. I still get use of them for my port (and port only). If I pay the mod then the copywrite is mine, I keep ANY proceeds from using them, AND he/she can use what "I" select for PORT only. It really gets down to "Who's doing WHO?" Oct 12 06 05:17 pm Link |
