|
Forums >
General Industry >
My Rant About TFCD Shoots, Cancellations, and So O
i know others have talked about this topic before, but it's late and i need to rant. well over six weeks ago i started planning a 5-day trip to chicago, mainly to do photo shoots though i have other things to do in town too (and good thing!). sent out a couple casting calls, and got a lot of replies. 'yes i want to shoot with you' etc, etc. lots of tenative times/dates scheduled for shoots. now....as the shoot is looming, lots of cancellations. some with good reasons stated. but i see a pattern here. now i see why some photographers do not do tfcd, or at least require a deposit up front from the model. i am leaning toward a deposit. so how much, folks? or what's your policy. mind you, i want to shoot so not trying to deter all but the intrepid. thoughts? by the way, nothing against chicago, but i have not had this problem in ny, hawai'i, or anywhere in the south where i am located. something in the water? too many pizzas? the cubs curse? or what? sorry, that's another thread. aloha. Sep 28 06 01:40 am Link Maybe they took a 2nd look at your port! (just kidding) Actually I had a no-show today. But I always have a plan B of things to do. I guess it happens and why would anyone want a model to come to a shoot unless she really wanted too. It's not stressful if one is objective and has other plans that can be implemented if the model has not confirmed a few hours prior to the shoot via text or cell. Sep 28 06 01:56 am Link If I plan to travel to another state I do it for a reason. I had a visit to Cali in Dec to see my brother. Had three shoots lined up. All a no show or no call. Oh well, I expected it. I just hung out on the beach  Iâve learned not to expect anything from models Iâve never worked with before. I used to get all lighting prepared and shit like that a few hours before the shoot. Now I just set it up when they get here. And I always have a backup plan for something to do if they donât show. Hell, I quit worrying about that shit long ago Sep 28 06 01:58 am Link JM Dean wrote: BRILLIANT! While you set up your lighting, I can try to tame my hair and fix my make up! The hair is always unruly and has a mind of its own so there is no getting it "done" before a shoot. ~laugh~ Sep 28 06 02:10 am Link just got back from cali, where i visiting family, hung out on the beach and had no shoots planned, just a vacation. but-- it's too cold to go to 'the beach' in chicago! but ok i feel better. for one thing, two replies already, even though it is 2am (here anyway). still, how about specific policies on tfcd folks? how much in deposit, terms, etc? Sep 28 06 02:12 am Link make that 3 replies....jael, too bad you are not close to chicago! Sep 28 06 02:15 am Link wishingtreephotography wrote: Hi, Sep 28 06 06:33 am Link That's why I'm following the BYOM policy when I go to Chicago this weekend. Like you, I had people say they wanted to participate, only to have some evaporate and another, who I had previously counted as 'in,' cancel because she got a better offer. If I lived in Chicago, I wouldn't give that person another chance. But I definitely have Jessie, so I'm good no matter who else shows up. Sep 28 06 08:18 am Link I depend greatly on the chemistry between model & photographer, and I do as much as possible to make that relationship positive & constructive. That is one reason that I'm not a big fan of TFP/TFCD -- at its heart, there is the implication that the photographer is doing a favor to the model. I figure that since I'm keeping the copyrights, I should compensate the model something more than a few images. I'm also a big fan of checking references. There are links to the models from the images on my portfolio, and I don't have a problem with anyone contacting them for a reference. While I can't guarantee that a model & I will produce a smashing image, I am confident that the model will leave our time together feeling respected & appreciated. If you are traveling out of town & want to set up some sessions, why not contact the local photographers & ask them who they think would be reliable & appropriate? Finally, I am not a big fan of the "deposit" concept. If I understand this correctly, the model gives the photographer a deposit to insure her timely arrival at the sitting, and she gets back the deposit once she arrives. I have two comments about that strategy: 1) It gives the model the message that she isn't to be trusted and that the photographer's time is more valuable than hers. That is not a good first impression. 2) Since models have similar complaints about photographers not giving the promised images from their TFP shoots, how would you feel about letting the model leave with a deposit from you photographers, which presumedly would be returned when you deliver the agreed upon images in the agreed upon formats at the agreed upon time? I suspect that many photographers would not be inclined to be on the other side of that deposit strategy. Bottom line: >>> Flakes / no shows happen, and there's not a lot you can do about that. >>> Work with models you know on critical projects. >>> Check references. >>> Be selective about which models you decide to work with. >>> Make sure that the model is enthusiastic & excited about the project. >>> Always have a Plan B. Sep 28 06 11:52 am Link g-man wrote: I would also think doing so would drastically reduce the number of models willing to work with you. I would think most would be turned off by such a request. Sep 28 06 05:39 pm Link From a models perspective, dealing with a similar situation: I had a TFCD shoot scheduled with a photographer who was traveling to a city about an hour and half away from me. When we scheduled, everything seemed nice and organized - I was sent his full shoot schedule and a message that he'd call a week prior to discuss the details (genre, location, etc.). He had given me some inference that he had specific goals in mind for our shoot. The week prior approaches, and no phone call. So I drop an e-mail to check in and make sure I wasn't negligent in confirming. He replies that everything is cool, and I'm on his schedule to call the next day. Next day rolls by (Friday, shoot is on the following Tuesday), no phone call. So, I call him - as I need to know what to prepare for in terms of wardrobe, hair, make-up (ie. do I need to make an appointment with my stylist, shop for new wardrobe items, etc.). I catch him while he's driving so he's not able to give me much information, but promises to follow-up with an E-mail. Weekend goes by, and no e-mail received. So, Monday morning I drop an e-mail to remind him that I'm waiting for details. He replies back that he realizes he's dropped the ball, gives me no relevant information as to what to expect for wardrobe, etc. AND then goes off complaining about how many no-shows he had with models over the weekend. He says he's contemplating not calling any of the models to confirm, and only dealing with the ones like me who are pro-active in calling to confirm. AND, that he's considering requiring deposits to book a shoot in the future. (Personally, I think I know why this particular photographer is getting so many no-shows .. communication is so critical, especially when organizing these out of town shoots.) I politely canceled my shoot with him, as I was getting quite uncomfortable with the situation and the changing expectations for communication. It wasn't giving me good vibes, and even if we were able to work well together - I feared my discomfort would come through in every shot. Thankfully I've had enough positive experiences with photographers off of MM to know this guy isn't the norm. But it does reiterate just how important pre-shoot communication is - whether it's phone, e-mail or in person - to go over the details and expectations. As a model, if we're going for a specific theme or goal - I also need some time to prepare to make sure I show up ready and organized. If we're shooting from the hip, that's cool too.. but I do need to know that's the expectation. If I feel disorganization from a photographer, I get uncomfortable about it. However, that doesn't excuse a model from just simply not showing up. BTW, as a model doing TFP/TFCD - I would not be willing to pay a deposit to reserve a shoot. TFx is a trade for time and services, but I much rather when it feels like a true collaboration with another artist. Doing a deposit, on either side, changes the balance too much and not what I'm personally interested in exploring. - Shurya Sep 29 06 09:13 am Link In the past when I had alot more bsness/activity along these lines (weddings and commercial are nearly all I do now, unfortunately), I had a 50% no show rate, even among chicks I knew. After a couple of times showing up at Berry College campus (a great place) and them not showing, I started a policy of having them show up at my home-studio; then we could go wherever or shoot there. Still, if I wanna shoot with a good subject, I will still agree to meet them sometimes. It's just part of dealing with people in this field, and I hate to say it, but it's part of dealing with young women in general - the younger they are, the less reliable they are; part of the reason I refuse to shoot with anyone under 18. I've never had a male client not show up......never. I've even had a wedding that was cancelled but she didnt bother to tell me. Go figure. I'm not bashing chicks (God knows I love em), but it's (picture Jack Webb) Just the facts maam. It's just a gamble. The only thing I require a deposit on is a wedding. Sep 29 06 10:28 am Link update from chicago. just had my first shoot here in chicago, with orion alapack. great model -- highly recommended. i appreciate the comments on this thread. the comments have convinced me -- no deposits for tfcd, just good communication. i do see a definite correlation between -1- models who reply quickly, provide their cell phone (as i do), and get details and -2- models who follow through. so maybe the rule is 'no cell phone, no shoot.' shurya, your comments from a model's persective were helpful, and made me feel better somehow. and i think looknsee photo's points are very well taken. and fine work i might add. so far i am 1 for 3 here (1 good shoot, 2 cancellations), with 3 more shoots to go. Sep 29 06 05:06 pm Link I know everyone keeps saying no shows are a way of life, so deal with it. But it is so disrespectful of your time and effort I don't think anyone should treat someone who is willing to do a shoot with you for free, making time in their schedule only to be crapped on. The other thing is models going off on photographers just because they don't get their way, for example. One just emailed me after saying she would like to shoot with me (I contacted her). But she wanted to shoot at night, well, this is my job not a hobby and I do work at it all day, so I do want to stop after working hours. I realize not everyone can make it during the day, but I can't help that. So just because I suggested shooting during the day when most photographers shoot (I think) she went off on my like I'm the bad guy. She said she wouldn't give me her phone number because she didn't know me (I never asked for her number) and she wanted a reference which I gave her the number and name of a designer I worked with, but she never called the designer. She wanted me to call her "agents" give them the number and have them call. She said no one would ever expect a model to call a photographer she never worked with before. She's an idot! Models do it all the time, I get calls from models from modeling agencies. When I am shooting a model from an agency I tell them to have the model call me to make arraingments and they do! But I guess they are professional not flakes. Why bother telling someon you would like to shoot with them, start to set up a session, and then no call, email, nothing, then why bother in the first place. It is different if you are emailing or called and got bad feelings, but you should at least say no thanks. Sep 30 06 02:41 am Link I like in a suburb of Chicago, use to live in the city, but I read forums and shout box etc. on this site all the time, and guess what? Most of the people are from both coasts or the south, I think most people here in Chicago for models anyway are chicken to pick up the phone or do a real shoot. Not that is with the exceptions of the many models who are great that I did work with, but looking over my email records for this town, I have over 400 emails over the past three years and most don't even contact you to say no thanks. That is just bs if you think you want to get ahead in this business. Also how many models have phone pictures with their boyfriends at clubs state right off the top no experience, but then ask for pay only my rates are....... What are they nuts? What about the models who work hard to get ahead, even professional models who still do tfp to update their book or comp? I shoot with them all the time. And this start up wants to get paid, but they never think the photographer with all these years of experience should be paid, what is that about? And if models in the Chicago aren't chicken, then why don't they answer emails? This isn't just my expereince, I know photographers who tell me they don't look at MM or omp those people aren't real I was told. Sometimes I believe them, but it is nice to work with someone who has the look you want. I have a shoot coming up the model called me, I didn't even give her my number, she looked it up on my site. And even though the session will take place later she called to talk about ideas, I'm looking forward to working with this pro model! Sep 30 06 02:50 am Link well here's the final tally for my chicago trip. male models -- 2 of 2 showed up, on time, two very good shoots. thanks orion and cecil! female models - 0 of 4 models. on the bright side, 3 of 4 let me know they were going to cancel. cell phones, communication, and references are apparently the way to go. Oct 01 06 01:12 pm Link CL Photography wrote: There are several things to remember many of the models on-line are Oct 01 06 06:58 pm Link got one more good piece of info. from another thread. (what can i say, i have a lot of free time on my hands tonight.) a good policy is to inform models to call a day in advance to confirm the next day's shoot. no call, no shoot. Oct 01 06 07:49 pm Link I still have no-shows/no-calls, but the rate has dramatically dropped since I've started meeting every potential model beforehand. I set up to meet somewhere nearby that my girlfriend and I like to go anyway. This way, when the person doesn't show, we still have a nice dinner and drinks. This meeting acts in many ways, most importantly being a pre-filter. Most of the flakes can't even make this meeting. I don't do deposits unless it's a paid gig or a reschedule. The rescheduling deposit (which I picked-up from another photog on MM) seems to be a nice professional way to shut the door on a prior flake. More than likely, s/he won't pay so I won't have to deal with them. A deposit, though unlikely, would mean they were serious. The confirmations usually work, but just because they confirm 24 hrs beforehand, doesn't mean they won't be diagnosed with cancer 30 minutes prior to the shoot. For unpaid gigs, I don't even turn off my TV or stop what I'm doing until I get a call stating they are on their way to the locale. Oct 02 06 09:17 am Link i watched a lot of tv during my chicago trip. Oct 02 06 11:12 am Link WillSun wrote: Meeting beforehand is a great idea, in theory, but I can't say from the few times I've tried it that the flake rate has improved any.... plus, everyone's awfully busy, so you're often lucky to get a mutual time scheduled to SHOOT, let alone meet beforehand. Oct 31 06 02:38 pm Link Modeling is like real life. Our society is engraved on "opportunity costs". People want to wait for the best deal, and are willing to lose an opportunity for something else of perceived greater value. People will book things and cancel in everyday life. (IE. hotel rooms, parties...Right??) That's one of the big factors in modeling and photography. Some people will book and showup, even if a better opportunity arises. If something else is that great, an honest person will ask the other party if they're willing to re-schedule. Asking for a meeting before hand may or may not be the solution, because you're asking for 2 meetings now, the other being the shoot. Oct 31 06 02:53 pm Link wishingtreephotography wrote: Make sure communication is your number 1 priority- Phone calls, not just emails. Oct 31 06 03:03 pm Link Communication is key. I have really good luck with my shoots and hardly ever get flaked on. I think a big part of that is keeping in touch with the person I am working with. Plus you can kind of tell if the other person is flaky if you keep communication. If you email or call a few times and get no response or little short emails lik (yes.....no......or the annoying response of......k) you might start to see that this might be one of those no shows. I would say about 90% of my shoots go along as planned Oct 31 06 03:36 pm Link I am in Chicago. I go to all of my shoots. Of course, almost all of my shoots are paid. I also have a lot of photographers come to my home studio...pretty hard to cancel if they are coming to me. The photographers I do non monetary trades with are so good that I would never cancel on them. There are a lot of models in Chicago who are just getting started who will, in theory, TFP with many photographers, but they don't take their modeling careers that seriously. As a photographer as well as a model, I have had many cancellations, but no one has actually stood me up. (no call no show) I also have a lot of models who want to work with me, but to be honest, I have so much editing, jewelry making and selling and other projects going on, a cancellation just gives me more time to do other things. It is different when you are traveling to a different city, but if you don't want cancellations, find the best models where you are going, pay one or two models, and do tfp with the rest. Oct 31 06 03:42 pm Link I live in Atlanta but go to school in SC. I usually go home every weekend for work. I require a $100 deposit before I travel. I remember one time, I drove all the way to Atlanta for a shoot, and the model cancelled. It took me $75 in gas, so basically, I was out of money. Ever since then, I require a deposit. Oct 31 06 03:56 pm Link The Infamous Lapis wrote: Lapis you are just full of wisdom. Oct 31 06 04:46 pm Link 2 weeks agoi had a tfcd with a model i met here, i emailed her some pictures and she didn't say boo, i figured she didn't like them and laid low, didn't call her, etc.. and since i thought she didnt like them i made to attempt to post them either.. then two days ago she emailed me and said she was in an auto accident and was laid up, that she liked the pictures.. reminded me that sometimes life happens when you least expect it.. Oct 31 06 04:50 pm Link TFP IS A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME! I DO NOT WILL NOT SHOOT TFP EVER! Oct 31 06 04:59 pm Link I'm as rough on Chicago as anyone, and I grew up there, still spend a lot of time there on business. High taxes, few city services, too much traffic, poor urban planning, massive suburban sprawl, winter. Oh, and insane levels of political corruption and inefficiency, and perhaps worse, voters who roll over and play dead and let it keep happening... if you guys vote Stroger II into Cook County office next week, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, last I heard we have a democracy, not a hereditary monarchy. At least it's not my tax dollars going down the drain anymore. But... I shoot in Chicago all the time, and I've found many exceptionally reliable and responsive models there. Only two no-shows ever, and I shoot a lot. If you're having problems, you've got no one to blame but yourself. It's either shooting with anything that comes along... some percentage of models on this site are wannabes, if you rely on random chance, well, guess what... or inadequate communication, or unrealistic expectations. I can't really tell which from looking at your profile, because it doesn't really tell me a whole lot about you, or what your objectives are. Which might contribute to the problem, the better models generally like to work with people who express their concepts clearly. Bottom line, it's got little to do with the city, any city. There certainly are cultural differences from place to place, and a lot more models to choose from in some places than others. It hasn't got much to do with TFP, either. Anyone having trouble in a metro area of eight million people should perhaps take a long, hard, and very honest look at why. Oct 31 06 05:17 pm Link wishingtreephotography wrote: not to sound harsh or anything, but why not make it the policy to not shoot tf-whatever? clearly the only thing you are getting from it is grief. Oct 31 06 07:47 pm Link Hehe, last time I posted about this they closed the thread. Apparently too common. Lets just say I always at least double book shoots, because at least 50% of models cancel or just plain don't show. Unfortunately, with girls from agencies, my experience is not much better. Some people just don't care about you or your time. I'm really tmpted to list them prominently on my profile. Oct 31 06 07:52 pm Link Respectfully the 'quality' of your work often has little to do with models responding and showing for shoots. Many times models won't even look at your profile. Some just respond to casting calls and thats it. On a recent trip to Chicago I had lots of interest but shot very few models. I heard from lots of models before my trip. The usual love your work or lets work together but the reality was they vanished. One of our mods made a great suggestion. Offer money to models you really want to work with and the rest TFP. I want to respond further to this concept of better shots gets more models. How does one get better work if you can't shoot? The OP'S work is fine in fact he has several cool shots. The problem isn't him or his work. Its also not personal from the models. The key is to find serious and dependable models. If for example a model won't provide a contact number or is never able to return calls or seems bored when you speak to her. Ask casual questions like what are your goals with modeling. A model I spoke to yesterday seemed totally uninterested and told me she wanted to do runway. This being a model who contacted me??? She's off the list! Sad as it is MM isn't a good place from my experience to find models. I've had lots more luck with Craigslist and other places. Many here have great luck with models on this site, I haven't. Oct 31 06 08:09 pm Link wishingtreephotography wrote: Two things about your post: Oct 31 06 08:23 pm Link wow i surprised this thread came alive again. i'm over my rant. i did have two good shoots in chicago, despite the bad experience with a few models who cancelled. i had business there aside from these shoots so it was a good trip overall. i do highly recommend orion and cecil in chicago. thanks to all who comments. i will continue to do occasional tfcd shoots, albeit more selectively. that is easier when you are not traveling to a city where you don't know a lot of folks. Oct 31 06 08:36 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: I agree with Stephen, if you BYOM they can't escape, Oct 31 06 10:57 pm Link Shurya wrote: Very well written. I have had the same problem. A photographer cancelled on me for a ligitimate reason (health problems), and then proceeded to go on in the very same email and tell me how he was getting down and taking it personally because many models were cancelling on him. Trouble is he didn't stop to think how that would make me feel. Not very good, frankly. Its NOT a smart thing to say to a potential model. CL Photography wrote: Ehh, I would dare say that I have shot just as much during the day as I have during evenings and weekends. I don't think there is any sort of set schedule. Right now I'm having some scheduling conflicts because currently my availablility is primarily on the weekends, particularly for shoots that are further away, and I am trying to work something out with a photographer that can only shoot during the week. Its tough to make it work, but we are trying to find some way to do it. We'll see what happens anyway. Nov 01 06 09:18 am Link |
