Steven Balcaitis wrote:
Well what I am saying is do you keep the photos of models that had a bad experience with you?  So then the point comes to if I want to check your references and the only models I talk to are the ones that you had a great experience with,  then I won't know if you are everything you saying you are.

Some photographers are oblivious to the fact that some models may have had bad experiences.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Some photographers are oblivious to the fact that some models may have had bad experiences.

Definitely.  You must have posted this while I was writing my initial response.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Some photographers are oblivious to the fact that some models may have had bad experiences.

This is true.  but,  I have seen a page where a model had a bad experience with a photographer and the photographer didn't post her photos,  and he denies working with her.  Only reason I know they did is because I am friends with her,  she even showed me his work.  So how do I know that the people you send me to are the people that will give me an accurate account of your professionalism.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Well, you can always ask the photographer to provide references.  That's a start.

Also, contacting the models displayed on the photographer's portfolio isn't a bad thing.  There is no guarantee that the models displayed there will give the photographer a glowing reference when asked by another model.

I'm also a big believer of building a little local photographic community (all local photographers & models).  When a new model appears on the scene, I do ask all the local photographers if they have had any experience with the model before I hire him/her.  Usually someone knows something.  That little artistic community thing has tons of benefits -- not only can you get references, but you can share location ideas, share resources (e.g. props, equipment, etc.) -- we even set up social events & multiple model/photographer photography sessions.

It's worth the effort.

I love this idea,  this would really fix the whole reference/ escort issue.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:

This is true.  but,  I have seen a page where a model had a bad experience with a photographer and the photographer didn't post her photos,  and he denies working with her.  Only reason I know they did is because I am friends with her,  she even showed me his work.  So how do I know that the people you send me to are the people that will give me an accurate account of your professionalism.

OMG!  You don't.  You've already answered your own question.  Internet modeling can be a crap shoot.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
This is true.  but,  I have seen a page where a model had a bad experience with a photographer and the photographer didn't post her photos,  and he denies working with her.  Only reason I know they did is because I am friends with her,  she even showed me his work.  So how do I know that the people you send me to are the people that will give me an accurate account of your professionalism.

You don't. You can assume what you want but if you dont trust a photographer or any models whom the photographer has worked with... whats the point? You probably shouldn't  be modeling then. Do your homework, ask around, maybe even talk to the photographer in question...If you feel "akward" then move on to the next one, that way you can discredit as many as possible and get an enormous portfolio of blank pages.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
I love this idea,  this would really fix the whole reference/ escort issue.

The chipper solved the escort issue a long time ago.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
I hear a lot of photographers tell models to check references.  Where do we get said references?  From the photographer?  E-mail random models that they have on their profile?  That sounds great, but here's the rub,
Would you keep a model's name on your profile if she is going to bash you?  If not then us models aren't really going to get an accurate account of your professionalism.  You keep the good and throw the bad.  Now I know that this is coming out bad, but I am not really trying to argue in the extreme,  just curious as to why say check references,  when you are the ones giving the references.

Lack of food and caffeine is making this post difficult to understand. So, I'll just state that I get references from the photographer (I ask for three), and I will also randomly pick out some models they have on their ports and ask them.

-D

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
I hear a lot of photographers tell models to check references.  Where do we get said references?  From the photographer?  E-mail random models that they have on their profile?  That sounds great, but here's the rub,
Would you keep a model's name on your profile if she is going to bash you?  If not then us models aren't really going to get an accurate account of your professionalism.  You keep the good and throw the bad.  Now I know that this is coming out bad, but I am not really trying to argue in the extreme,  just curious as to why say check references,  when you are the ones giving the references.

Thats how it works with photographers or anyone else. Of course the references given will be good ones. That's how it works. In my case, no doubt I could point you to a variety of individuals (models, mua's, etc) that for one reason or another would trash me if they could. Maybe a dozen in 40 years. I've been lucky, and I've rarely worked with anyone from the internet I didn't already know from elsewhere. So, the chances of running into cry-rape freaks -- and yes, they exist here and elsewhere too -- is more limited than those doing TFP with internet models.

I can also provide say 400-500 references I know will offer positive reviews. Does my decision to not offer the dozen vs. the many skew the results? Yep. But, would  one negative by someone who thought they had a way to coerce (yes, the threat of calling rape is actually coercion rather than the relentless requesting usually called coercion here) a large sum of money from me skew the results more. definately. Likewise the myriad bullshit complaints from models who know so little about the industry to badmouth because they didn't know they don't have copyright without negotiating same.

The reality is that life has risks. All one can do is what they can do, and should do everything they can do, incuding passing on assignments that do not meet the safety criteria they have set for themselves after doing all their research.

If models are more risk adverse than that, they they are clearly in the wrong profession. As for the hobbyists... some risk will always exist. if you aren't comfortable with that risk, then why the hobby?

You cross the street every day, knowing that there is a risk of being hit by a moving vehicle. You take the precautions you can, and then you cross the street. handle your modelling assignments the same way. take the precautions, then cross the street.

Please do not assume for a moment that this is an endorsement of 'escorts' as a reasonable precaution. It is not. Once you dont need someone to hold your hand crossing the street, you don't need an escort to model.

(yep i said i was out of the forums, but hell i have a few mins to respond to a legitimate question)

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
How does a photographer know what a model is going to say?

Just ask the model......... assuming she can still communicate through the duct tape and air tube you've provided, then you'll get your answer

oldguysrule wrote:

Thats how it works with photographers or anyone else. Of course the references given will be good ones. That's how it works. In my case, no doubt I could point you to a variety of individuals (models, mua's, etc) that for one reason or another would trash me if they could. Maybe a dozen in 40 years. I've been lucky, and I've rarely worked with anyone from the internet I didn't already know from elsewhere. So, the chances of running into cry-rape freaks -- and yes, they exist here and elsewhere too -- is more limited than those doing TFP with internet models.

I can also provide say 400-500 references I know will offer positive reviews. Does my decision to not offer the dozen vs. the many skew the results? Yep. But, would  one negative by someone who thought they had a way to coerce (yes, the threat of calling rape is actually coercion rather than the relentless requesting usually called coercion here) a large sum of money from me skew the results more. definately. Likewise the myriad bullshit complaints from models who know so little about the industry to badmouth because they didn't know they don't have copyright without negotiating same.

The reality is that life has risks. All one can do is what they can do, and should do everything they can do, incuding passing on assignments that do not meet the safety criteria they have set for themselves after doing all their research.

If models are more risk adverse than that, they they are clearly in the wrong profession. As for the hobbyists... some risk will always exist. if you aren't comfortable with that risk, then why the hobby?

You cross the street every day, knowing that there is a risk of being hit by a moving vehicle. You take the precautions you can, and then you cross the street. handle your modelling assignments the same way. take the precautions, then cross the street.

Please do not assume for a moment that this is an endorsement of 'escorts' as a reasonable precaution. It is not. Once you dont need someone to hold your hand crossing the street, you don't need an escort to model.

(yep i said i was out of the forums, but hell i have a few mins to respond to a legitimate question)

Very valid response,  I do disagree with the escort thing tho,  I will chalk that up to "agree to disagree".  I am not YET a professional model,  but I do know that people lie.  So if I am meeting you in your home and you want me to do nudes, then I would bring an escort. (I am using this as an example).  I know that when people start out, they don't have all the equipment and studio that a professional has.  So to protect myself I would bring an escort.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
Very valid response,  I do disagree with the escort thing tho,  I will chalk that up to "agree to disagree".  I am not YET a professional model,  but I do know that people lie.  So if I am meeting you in your home and you want me to do nudes, then I would bring an escort. (I am using this as an example).  I know that when people start out, they don't have all the equipment and studio that a professional has.  So to protect myself I would bring an escort.

Hahahahaha.... thats the thing... dont shoot what wasnt discussed thoroughly BEFORE the shoot. This saves a lot of headaches for everyone involved. Good job on knowing that people lie. Also, a professional doesnt necessarily have a studio or lots and lots of equipment.

Steven Balcaitis wrote:
I am not YET a professional model,  but I do know that people lie.  So if I am meeting you in your home and you want me to do nudes, then I would bring an escort. (I am using this as an example).  I know that when people start out, they don't have all the equipment and studio that a professional has.  So to protect myself I would bring an escort.

I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly, Steven.  Are you saying that if you were shooting with a photographer at a studio, you'd feel comfortable going alone, but not if you're shooting elsewhere such as the photographer's house?  I'm not sure I understand what would make one location safe, and one unsafe.

Shyly wrote:

I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly, Steven.  Are you saying that if you were shooting with a photographer at a studio, you'd feel comfortable going alone, but not if you're shooting elsewhere such as the photographer's house?  I'm not sure I understand what would make one location safe, and one unsafe.

Apparently it's harder to get a chipper up the stairs at a studio.  If it's already in your garage, well........

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

Apparently it's harder to get a chipper up the stairs at a studio.  If it's already in your garage, well........

and the disposal works well for petites

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Apparently it's harder to get a chipper up the stairs at a studio.  If it's already in your garage, well........

Not to unduly scare Steve, but  a studio outfitted with a tub and lots of draino can do the trick.

Edit:  Or, so I've heard.