ModelMayhem.com - Interesting topic on an other site... (long read)

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Photographer

Posts: 813

Chapin, South Carolina, US

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:
Most working models, of course, are doing paid jobs. There is an incredible amount of good paying work out there, though very little of it makes it to model forums - which is why you don't generally see a lot of working models online sites, exception being adult glamour. Definitely, represented models are working paid, except when they are testing. I would say that paid work accounts for the majority of modeling assignments available. This does not take into account hobbiest and TFP shooting as a consideration in the equation, of course.

Sometimes models will work unpaid if it will provide large exposure and/or a tearsheet. Many others will not even then, and usually aren't expected to. For most releases to be valid (when push comes to shove in a court room dispute over commercial image use, for instance), there must be a fair exchange - which means compensation.

Once a model has some initial images, the free posing only deminishes their value going forward. Exceptions are for regular testing with photographers who shoot the local commercial or fashion markets and/or have ad agency connections... or to try new looks, update headsheets, etc.

DrEccentric wrote:
I've gone on over a dozen shoots and gotten paid barely three times (not including money used for gas to get there). For some reason the poll wouldn't let me vote, but either way, it seems photographers aren't very willing to pay a model for her time and effort, even if she's half naked. Sometimes they even get touchy when a model asks for gas re-imbursement. Hello - I came from 100 miles away just for you, and gas is $3 a pop. I'd much rather drive half an hour, lose a portion of a buck, and make $200 at work than drive two hours, lose half a gas tank, and make jack squat at work. How am I supposed to make money modeling as a career if I'm making charity trips for a free photoshoot? I take an entire day at work off just so that - IN CASE - a two hour shoot becomes five hours (I can't even count how many times that's been the case), I've got the day to spend shooting.

Photographers may think that models don't do much at shoots, but how many times has it been in the results that a certain twist of the head would've made the picture? How many times have I come to the shoot and had to run the show because, "Oh, I'm sorry. I'm really good with lights and composition, but bad at modeling poses"? There's only so many things photoshop can do.

Well, thank you. I've been wanting to rant for quite a while now, so letting this all out was very therapeutic.

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:

DrEccentric wrote:
...it seems photographers aren't very willing to pay a model for her time and effort

That's because photographers don't pay models, clients do. Photographers are paid to shoot models (by the client also). The unrealistic expectation on the Internet seems to be that photographers pay models. Except for amateur, hobby, and adult oriented, very few (if any) professional photographers pay models... simply because they are in business to make money themselves too. There are always exceptions, but these are rare, or at a mom-and-pop-shop level where a very small client may be working within a very small budget. Generally speaking, when models and photographers are contracted for a job, the client foots the bill and the model is paid by the client through either direct, though the models' agent, or via the advertising agency that represents the client.

Except for test shoots, almost 100% of model jobs are PAID. Other than on the Internet, I don't know any models who work for free unless adding portfolio images or on spec for stock.

evy wrote:
here's my question--who are these clients and how do they find their models/how do models find them? i am still building my portfolio so i don't have a problem with TFP right now, but for the time when i can get into paid jobs it's all very fuzzy to me how exactly one does that.

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:

evy wrote:
here's my question--who are these clients and how do they find their models/how do models find them?

The clients are any company that needs models. Generally, these are businesses of almost any size (from the local clothing store at the mall doing fliers or local paper ads, to large corporation doing catalogs or national magazine advertising). Models are booked through fashion or commercial talent agencies. It is not unlike in the non model world where one time or short term jobs are booked through temporary employment services such as Manpower, Staffing Solutions, etc.

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:
You're welcome. The "sigh" referenced having just explained it all and it apparently went right over some heads if they are still thinking Internet forums is where you find paying jobs.

I've been in the business now 25+ years and have never met any professional photographers who "pay models." On the Internet, or at camera clubs, etc., sure... but certainly not working photographers who are in business. Photographers are in business to make money, not spend it. They are hired to shoot models and are paid by clients. Models are paid by their agents who are paid by those same clients also. It simply is how this business has always worked and is not likely to change.

Forums and free portfolio listings are great places to hang out, share information, network, gain experience, find test shoots, and have fun... but working and being paid is part of the business that takes place through the actual industry. To ask, "What percent of models working are paid," is almost silly. 100% of working models are paid. Everything else is aspiring to be professional. All model jobs are paid, and that is why they are referred to as "jobs."

loweje wrote:

That's because photographers don't pay models - CLIENTS pay models, (MODELS pay photographers for prints and portfolio work) and CLIENTS pay photographers.

The clients that I work with leave the model selection to me. They in turn pay the models and me at the end of the shoot as a a rep from their corporate office is on-site during the shoot. At that time, the model is paid, by DOTS, LLC and I am paid by DOTS, LLC. That's the nature of the business, that's how it works.

adickted2 wrote:
Real land based Agencies.Check out their sites.Requirements etc.Then take your images to an open call if you think its good enough to qualify.

As has already been said ..I get paid to shoot..not give money away.I seek Clients.You should seek Clients.talk to the strip mall dress shop owners etc adn see if they need local MALL SHOW Runway /pose Models for a Wedding Event /Graduation Dresses etc.

2 cents...** based on inflation equals a $5.00 loss ( j/k )

adickted2 wrote:
So I guess FORD Wilemina and Elite etc only represent Actors ?? hence only reason I am aware of needing to be a member of SAG..

My point was...
If models are serious about landing paying work.They need represented and acceptance by a REAL Land based Agency..not Internet Pimps or Amatuer photographers.

Peace

Mike

BTW the Concourse Car Show images are coming along nicely..Those pay ME Along with a few other Non Model Projects.But have provided Models with Tearsheet Work for a couple Projects.

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:
One will find very little Ford, Wilemina and Elite material on free Internet websites. Aspiring models are better served by an awareness of their place in the industry, and by starting local with print and commercial agencies in their hometown or nearest major city. You're correct that these should be licensed and bonded land-based agencies because Internet agents are meaningless, and lists of actual CLIENT credits hold more steam than links of "Friends" and "Favorites." Every agency, however, has a website - therefore their presence online is not an indicator that they're your pimps, of course. :-)

Ron_C wrote:
This thread should be on every free internet portfolio site there is.

I rarely do commercial work that needs models but I would like to do more. Babies and Bankers are my bread and butter, none of them ever ask for free photos when they call to make an appointment.
I have shot only a handful of aspiring models that do not have an online portfolio anywhere and they are paying customers building portfolios. I have been contacted by models that have online portfolios asking me to do a shoot with them on a TFP / CD basis to build a better portfolio. Here is my response to them:

âI do not work on a TFP/CD basis. Unfortunately I can not feed my family pretty pictures for breakfast.... Remember you get what you pay for. Invest in yourself or find an agency that will invest in you, and pay for you to build a portfolio.

I wish you all the best.
Ron
www.roncasasphotography.com
(843)-815-4474 â Studioâ

The Net has not helped this industry at all, in my opinion it has only damaged it.

Ron.

(Paying customer)

austinmodelsandtalen wrote:

Exactly, thank you! A real agency will help the model/talent acquire (read: PAY FOR) professional shots, not TFP, or through Testing, which photographers benefit by in other ways. Mind you, I'm not knocking TFP and encourage it whenever possible. Bottom line always is that photographers are in business to make money, and therefore they should be paid. Models are in business to make money also, and so they should allow their agents to guide them and assist and book them with paying client jobs. Photographers and models shouldn't be feeding off of one another... the client will pay both.

Very little of the above, however, takes place on the Internet.