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models and photographers: your thought on culls
I have had this discussion twice in the last couple of days. Models seem to want to see my culls. I am not interested in showing them to anyone. They are not representative of my best efforts and I really don't want them to be out there. One wants me to post them on my site (hidden link) so that she can see them. The other wants me to send her a separate cd. I have stated that I have never and will never allow my culls to get anywhere outside of my control. They are welcome to see them during our next shoot or the next time they are at my studio, but I refuse to make any copies in any form. Probably a bit severe of me, but there is a reason they were culled and I think that should be respeced. I have seen tons of images on this and other sites that never should have been sent to models and definitely never should have been posted. I've seen some of my earlier images that I allowed to be used by a model, not a clue what I was thinking. They made me cringe when I saw them later. I shot her again and begged that she remove the ones for the first shoot. What is the prevailing wisdom on culls? Sep 08 06 12:01 am Link I have been trying to prevent the intake of cull'd photographs. If I was in a similar shoot, I would let the talent see the culled photographs at the next meeting after the premiere. Right now, my next photoshoot will be shot on Large format film, so the chances of culled photos will be greatly reduced, since I would be thinking about getting the shot right the first time. Sep 08 06 12:10 am Link Just my opinion, but I think that culls are almost unavoidable. No matter what the skill level or equipment used, I think everyone has shots they don't like and don't want to get out. Expressions can be missed, eyes could be closed at just the wrong moment, etc. !@#$ happens!!!! Maybe it's just me, but there is no amount of planning or forethought that has, thus far, totally eliminated a the occurence of culls. Sep 08 06 12:33 am Link I trust a photographer's eye. I don't need to see the shots that look like poo! Sep 08 06 12:37 am Link e-string wrote: I like the way you think girl... Sep 08 06 06:21 am Link I only show edited photos...period! A fairly well known photographer once said he never showed his "flubs" because it dminished his stature if people thought he even remotely made mistakes. I agree with his viewpoint. Sep 08 06 07:08 am Link FKVPhotoGraphics wrote: ^Exactly. Sep 08 06 09:18 am Link the models always say yes to my choosing before the shoot, and happily too i say to them.. you will have some control over the pictures i use, if i have some that you really really don't like, you can object to it and if your objection is reasonble i won't use it, also if i am taking a picture and the wind blows up at the wrong moment and the shot becomes unflatering, i wont use it.. it's your face more than it's my film....the same way, if i take a picture that sucks the you won't ever see it it's good to say, a model has a look, she is giving her best when she is in her look, so if you shoot something she doesnt like, then the picture was probably screwed up anyways, if its diff and good she will like it doing this also means that a few models trust me from the beginning, and often go past their normal limits because they know i am not aliar, and that they can try something new, maybe see something they have wondered about, i am honest about this, and have not shown many pics, just for the reason that the model has changed her mind i had a shoot schedualed, my car broke down 4 hours before the shoot, i had to walk 6 miles with my gear to do the shoot, ie tfcd with a great model since i was tired i didnt have my flash pointed right, all the pictures were bad, there were a couple that were semi cool because she was half in the shadows, but it was bad she wanted her brother to work with them in photoshop, but they were just awfull a year later she doesn't mind because she's had better shoots, so if you give each other control, you get more freedom Sep 08 06 11:10 am Link unless specifically agreed otherwise, a client selecting from culls is not an option. selecting from contact sheets does sometimes make this a bit more complicated, but a big X through those not open to discussion / consideration seems to discourage sufficiently. then again, when i'm just shooting for the poops and smileys... eh. i don't take it too seriously anymore, but you should. Sep 08 06 11:18 am Link whats a cull??? u mean "pulls"? Sep 08 06 11:21 am Link *poop* &  Sep 08 06 11:22 am Link Depends on the kind of shoot I'm doing. If I'm shooting for art, where the goal is one, maybe two finished images that I pour a lot of time into, then that's it, that's all anyone sees. If I'm shooting more casually, say for a plus model's book, where I'm probably going to be doing minimal retouching anyway, then eh...who cares? Ultimately, the amount of post-production work I plan to do to something determines how much I care what other people see. Example-wise: This shot of Elizabeth didn't really need anything in post-production to be a solid plus model portfolio image. I adjusted the curves a smidge to brighten it (though MM compression robs it of its vibrancy...poo..) and that was pretty much it. She'll get a CD of everything we shot. (She also has flawless skin, so the usual zit zapping routine was unnecessary. Man, I love that.) On the other hand, this shot and this shot of Sebastian took a lot of delicate work to be the kind of high-drama black and whites I wanted, and nobody will be seeing anything but the finished images, period. Sep 08 06 11:32 am Link FosbreStudios wrote: Function: noun Sep 08 06 11:36 am Link oldguysrule wrote: Would you please check your email? Thank you. Sep 08 06 11:39 am Link e-string wrote: Thank you. Sep 08 06 11:41 am Link I am happy to report that after a series of email and a lot of explaining, the model now sees my point. The thing she did not get from my initial email was that all of a certain outfit would be culled. We were shooting in a hotel room (very big and very nice) and I didn't like the lighting or where the poses took place in the room. I explained to her that the lighting was AWFUL and that there was no way those images would EVER be seen outside of my studio. She is welcome to see them the next time she is here, but I refuse to make copies of them to send to her. We shot over an evening and the next day. Lots of locations and lots of shooting. I posted the images I have converted from RAW for her to see. She misunderstood, thinking that the rest of the shoot had been culled. I am happy to report that we have straightened the whole thing out and both sides are happy again. Whether or not the issue had been resolved between us, I think the question was vaild, and I thank each of you for your responses. Sep 09 06 01:55 am Link It's important in the learning experience for the model to see what doesn't work and why. This has always been my policy - that they should see the complete session as soon as possible with my critique. But they never get to choose the photos. Either the agent/booker or I choose them. Generally a model is not able to judge the complete whole of the clothes, stance, expression, composition, technical aspects (focus, exposure, color balance, lighting) and how it adds to the needs, range and marketing of their book. After a while most agents agree with my choices and just allow me to choose without looking at the proofs. At first I would allow the models to take the contact sheets to study by herself or with the agent. But after a few sheets failed to return, I stopped the practice. They get prints only, not print resolution size digital files since I have no idea what they will use to print the files or if they may change them or re-distribute them. The use agreement specifically excludes transfers to third parties. That's explained before we agree to a session - else it's no deal. Sep 09 06 02:08 am Link I usually want to see them all except for the most obvious errors (like the strobe didn't fire or I sneezed). I want to know what worked and what didn't. Of course I expect the photographer to have veto power, but I also expect the photographer to trust my eye or we wouldn't be shooting trade. Sep 09 06 08:44 am Link theda wrote: I have no trouble with the model seeing the shoot in its entirety...But then I wouldn't shoot with someone who i didn't trust with that responsibility. I'm always interested in seeing what images the model liked and how they compare with my own choices...And quite often the model will "see" an image that I "missed" -- the key [imo] isn't what you show, it's who you're showing it to. Sep 09 06 09:11 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: OMG. Did we just agree on something? Sep 09 06 09:23 am Link theda wrote: I won't tell if you won't. Sep 09 06 09:25 am Link Alfred Mathis wrote: What the heck are culls ? Sep 09 06 09:30 am Link One of my longest running model (19 years!) NEVER agrees with me on the best imges. She always picks one a bit different from what I do. Nothing wrong with that. We are both happy. One of the keys to longevity. I ALWAYS give the lores images of the full session to a model to chose from. Mike Sep 09 06 09:33 am Link I recently approached a model I'd never worked with. We did a meet & greet and discussed some projects we were interested in. She'd looked at my portfolio, and I hers. She expressed an interest in working with me and I was looking forward to our first shoot together. I left her a copy of my standard TFP release to read over. A week later I get an e-mail from her stating that her husband did not like the terms of my release and they demanded a completel set of full resolution unedited copies of every image from the shoot. If I did not agree to this, then she would have to be paid. This was my reply to her: Dear (xxxx), My release is actually a contract between myself and the model, with obligations on both parties part. The terms in my release are absolute minimum images I try to give the model. Sometimes a shoot can go bad and there is just nothing to give the model. It's yet to happen to me, and I've always gave the model much more than the release lists as a minimum. I'm certainly not opposed to giving you a proof set of the full session at reduced resolution so you can use it as a tool to judge & improve your own work. I've done this with models that request it for self improvement purposes. I require in writing from them that those raw, unedited images will not be published in any form. As for images for web portfolio publication: Every image of my work is a reflection on my abilities and talent as an artist and photographer. Many images taken during a photo shoot are no good for much of anything - bad light, bad focus, bad body positioning or camera angle that doesn't work. etc, etc. I don't want those images posted on the internet anywhere. I want only my best work shown, whether it is in my portfolio or a models. I also require that my display work be watermarked with my copyright. Image theft is a very real problem with photographers who post their work on the internet. I try to keep my copyright small and unobtrusive, bit it is on every image of mine. The exception to copyright on the face of the work is for hard copy prints for a model's book. I do not think this is unreasonable of me. I'm not arrogant and am not saying a model has no opinion or voice in what shots are used. In almost every case, I've worked with the model after a shoot where we both pick the images that present her in her best light and also showcase my work in it's best light. It's a win-win situation for both of us that way. She looks good, I look good. Both of us benefit. TFP is supposed to be for mutual benefit. If I did not want you to have any use of the photos for yourself, or any input from you in their final appearance or use, I would pay you for your time. That works both ways though. If you want to take my raw, unedited images for your use without any restrictions, then you pay me. That's known in the industry as Work For Hire. The copyright is transfered in writing to you and I go on to the next job. I do want to work with you, but I cannot give away my work. I much prefer the mutual benefit approach. :-) Please think over what I've outlined above. Best regards, (end original reply) If anyone is curious about the contents of my "horribly unreasonable" release, it can be viewed here: http://www.yellowjacketsystems.com/gall … elease.doc The model in question has never replied. Sep 09 06 11:43 am Link Did I kill this thread, or what? Sep 09 06 04:04 pm Link Never show the rejects to anyone. And never let a model decide which ones you should keep. If a model insists on seeing everything, simply don't work with her. It's not worth it. Any pictures you don't control are gonna come back and bite you in the ass. -Don Sep 09 06 04:16 pm Link D. Brian Nelson wrote: I've been given cd's of all images from a shoot, many times - usually so I can pick which I want as edits. I'd never, ever post an unedited shot. Why would I? I want to look as good as possible. Sep 09 06 04:23 pm Link |
