Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
With all of the seemingly repetitive threads that many complain about here, I thought I'd go back in time and revisit a saved IM conversation I had with a model 2 years ago. NOTE: This may be a lenghty read, but an interesting insight on what goes through some people's heads about release forms and rights to photos. I had contacted a model on OMP I wanted to shoot with and she agreed to do TFP if I would also do some casual/glamour shots of her 18yo stepdaughter (the model was in her low 20's). I was fine with it and IMed her to discuss the release and schedule the shoot. I have edited some content out that isn't important to the point of the story, but I didn't remove anything that changes the plot, so to speak (in case someone accuses me of slanting the story to make her look bad). I also bolded more pointed items. Enjoy! [11:09] CLUELESS MODEL: okay so then you will mail us the cd or give it to me when we do our shoot?
[11:09] ME: you two OK with signing a TFP release?
[11:09] CLUELESS MODEL: yes - you have the forms right?
[11:11] ME: i'd like to make thumbnails of the keepers and post them online for you and her to go through....
[11:11] ME: then tell me which ones you want to keep so I can make sure those are "processed"
[11:12] ME: I used to just burn all images to a CD and mail them, but had an issue with that with one model....I told her if there was a shot she wanted to post or print to let me know so I could clean it up, but she just posted it to her online profile the way it was...so it was crooked, color was off a bit, etc....
[11:12] ME: and when my name's on it, it makes me look bad, you know?
[11:13] CLUELESS MODEL: i know- but i would really prefer if we could just have the cd- and then tell you which we wanted a print of- dont worry i dont put bad images up 
[11:14] CLUELESS MODEL: also- since it is her first shot i would like to be able to point out a few things on the not-so-good ones y'know?
[11:18] ME: i might be able to make an exception
[11:18] ME: i'm just a little nervous about it.....my name and rep out there if "bad pics" get out, you know?
[11:19] ME: when that one model posted one of the "unusable" pics, I shuddered a bit because she didn't ask em about it first
[11:19] CLUELESS MODEL: did you see bad pics on my portfolio?
[11:21] ME: maybe I can write an addendum or something on the release form and we can agree on some kind of "version control" or something
[11:21] ME:
[11:22] CLUELESS MODEL: ummm cant say i have ever had a photographer tell me what pics i can and cant use. . .
[11:22] ME: that's not what I'm saying either
[11:23] CLUELESS MODEL: yes it is
[11:23] CLUELESS MODEL: i have to check with you on whatever picture she wants to use
[11:23] ME: i'm saying I can post previews of all the pics we shoot - and you both let me know which of those you want to keep
[11:23] ME: from what I understand, it's a pretty common practice - especially for a TFP shoot
[11:24] ME: but like I said, we can make an exception and note it in the release form
[11:24] CLUELESS MODEL: like i said i have never been told this in the years i have doing this
[11:24] ME: just to cover both our butts
[11:24] CLUELESS MODEL: not covering- you are choosing what we can see and what we cant. . .
[11:24] CLUELESS MODEL: u r posting
[11:24] CLUELESS MODEL: we arent seeing all the pics
[11:24] CLUELESS MODEL: you want to do that for mine- fine- bu not on her
[11:24] ME: no - i would post them all
[11:25] CLUELESS MODEL: and then when we choose we get what prints?
[11:26] ME: not prints - just whatever of the bunch you want so I can process them and make sure you get a version that looks good
[11:26] CLUELESS MODEL: i have to say im really not happy about this
[11:26] CLUELESS MODEL: but it seems i dont have a choice
[11:27] ME: Clueless Model - I'm not sure you caught what I said earlier - I said I would make an exception
[11:30] CLUELESS MODEL: like ive said i have never even heard about it, and outside of the circumstances i find myself in i would never agree to it, but then again i almost never do TFP
[11:30] ME: That might be why it hasn't come up with you before
[11:34] CLUELESS MODEL: and im sorry if u have burned before- but i have to in many cases
[11:34] ME: i understand that - but wanted you to know that it's a common practice and wasn't trying to suggest something out of the ordinary
[11:39] ME: the thing is, there's no way I can control what a model does with every picture on a CD, so photogs need to cover their butts too
[11:39] CLUELESS MODEL: no- because they own the pics as much as you do
[11:39] ME: actually, they don't
[11:39] CLUELESS MODEL: unless u get a model to sign the paper stating only you have the ownership of the pics they technically own them and can do what they want
[11:39] ME: that's what the release form says
[11:39] CLUELESS MODEL: yes they do check the laws
[11:40] CLUELESS MODEL: the release gives you the right to use the pics
[11:40] ME: for a TFP - signing the release form states that the model agrees that the photog "owns" the pics, but the model can use them or reproduce them for non-commercial purposes (she can't sell them)
[11:41] ME: now, if you went and paid a photog, then it would be different because you are specifically paying for the pics
[11:41] CLUELESS MODEL: funny cant say any forms i have signed has ever said that
[12:01] ME: we should figure out what we agreed to for sat. for the pics
[12:02] CLUELESS MODEL: agree abt what
[12:02] ME: what did we decide?
[12:03] CLUELESS MODEL: about?i havent read the releases if thats what u r asking
[12:03] ME: we went back and forth so much that it didn't sound like you were ok with what I explained in the TFP form/release
[12:04] CLUELESS MODEL: im not okay with it- as a matter of fact im very pissed off about it- but its what u do so then thats what will be done
[12:05] CLUELESS MODEL: it would be to my own detriment to use a 'not so flattering' picture but u dont trust that
[12:05] CLUELESS MODEL: so you do whatever
[12:06] ME: i have to admit that i'm pretty surprised. i thought I explained it pretty well, but maybe I didn't. but I certainly don't think it's in either of our interests to work together when you're as upset about this as you seem to be
[12:07] CLUELESS MODEL: well im not backing out of it. . and the shoot will do fine. . . just because im angry doesnt mean im going to take it out on our shoot or something
[12:07] CLUELESS MODEL: it doesnt matter- jsut drop it
[12:07] ME: and I also said we could make an exception and just write it into the release form, but you still seem to be mad about it
[12:07] CLUELESS MODEL: im mad about what it implies
[12:09] ME: honestly, i think you're taking it personally when it's not a personal issue. and it's not because I don't think you know a good pic from a bad pic - which is what it sounds like you're saying
[12:10] CLUELESS MODEL: it is a personal issue- like u r the only one that has had a not so good picture displayed . . . you know please just drop it
[12:11] CLUELESS MODEL: so did we decide what day then?
[12:12] ME: honestly, I'm not sure this is a good idea to continue this. I can't help but feel some hostility about something I've tried to get a positive conclusion on, but you've turned it into a personal issue, and I'm not comfortable with that. If it's not going to be a good experience for both of us, we shouldn't do it.
[12:14] CLUELESS MODEL: okay first of all im surprised you havent learned this with your wife- when shes pissed just drop the subject- just because im angry about this doesnt mean next week i will, second of all im not doing this shoot for me im doing it for (my stepdaughter) therefore regardless of angry or not i have every intention of doing it and doing the best that i can at it
[12:14] CLUELESS MODEL: i can seperate doing a good job and being angry
[12:14] CLUELESS MODEL: its called being in the business world
[12:14] CLUELESS MODEL: now if you dont want to do the shoot with me then fine dont do it
[12:15] CLUELESS MODEL: but dont do it on the account that im upset
[12:15] CLUELESS MODEL: im gotten into problems right before a shoot with a phtog and the shoot still turned out fine
[12:18] CLUELESS MODEL: besides im angry abt the subject- doesnt mean im angry with you
[12:19] ME: Here's the thing Clueless Model. Photography is a hobby for me right now (because I don't make any money off of it). I take time away from my job and family do it because it's fun and I hope to make it a career some day. With that said, it's not fun for me to work with someone that I know has resentment about doing a shoot for whatever reason. Every model I've worked with has been extremely flexible and professional, which is what makes me want to continue doing this.
[12:19] ME: But I can't help but feel you're directing your anger at me for something that shouldn't even be an issue because it's a standard practice.
[12:20] CLUELESS MODEL: i don't resent sheesh- you need to relax
[12:20] CLUELESS MODEL: i dont agree with your practice- doesnt mean im angry at you
[12:22] ME: That's just it - it's not "my practice" - it's an industry practice for this kind of shoot, which you admit you don't do a lot of.
[12:23] ME: I hate getting off on the wrong foot, and since there's nothing at stake here for either of us (financially), it might be best if we didn't work together. I'm sorry you feel the way you do and took such offense at this whole thing, but I think this is best for all of us involved at this point. I just don't think going forward with this would be much fun for me anymore knowing how you feel about it.
[12:23] CLUELESS MODEL: you are making way to big of a deal about this
[12:23] CLUELESS MODEL: god you really need to relax
[12:24] CLUELESS MODEL: seperate the two damn- doesnt mean i dont want the shoot happen
[12:24] CLUELESS MODEL: it just means i dont agree with one mall part of a shoot
[12:24] CLUELESS MODEL: RELAX
[12:24] CLUELESS MODEL: if you dont want to do it then fine dont do it- i cant make you do it- but you really are making a much bigger deal of it then it really is
[12:25] CLUELESS MODEL: and like i said I DONT CARE!!!!! i dont know how many times i have to say
[12:25] CLUELESS MODEL: you do it whatever way you normally do it
[12:25] CLUELESS MODEL: thats fine
[12:25] ME: Clueless Model - the point is I'm not really comfortable anymore....I don't see us being able to put together a productive shoot under these conditions. And I have to say that no other model has ever had an issue with the release form.
[12:26] CLUELESS MODEL: i didnt say i had a problem signing it- did i???
[12:26] CLUELESS MODEL: under what conditions?
[12:27] ME: I'm sorry - but I have another call to get on. This isn't going anywhere. I wish you the best. Sorry this didn't work out.
[12:27] CLUELESS MODEL: whatever What's even funnier is that she IMed me a week or so later asking if we were doing the shoot again. A few months or weeks later, her profile on OMP was gone and I haven't seen it pop up anywhere since.
Would anyone else here have followed through with this shoot?
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Reminiscing: My Conversation with a Maroon Maroon?
I'm confused. Are you saying that you took her all the way out into the middle of the ocean and abandoned her on some island? Boy, you're a heartless one, I tell ya...
Photographer
4C 41 42
Posts: 11093
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Would anyone else here have followed through with this shoot? Shit no. A TFP/CD shoot is not worth that much aggravation. My prediction would be that had you done the shoot, you'd have had problems with her for a long time afterward. You might have even found yourself being bashed in the forums about it.
Nope, no way, no how.
Model
Dances with Wolves
Posts: 25108
SHAWNEE ON DELAWARE, Pennsylvania, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Maroon?
I'm confused. Are you saying that you took her all the way out into the middle of the ocean and abandoned her on some island? Boy, you're a heartless one, I tell ya... Dammit Jay! I wanted to comment on that!
Can I ask why this was all done over IM? Do neither of you own phones?
-D
Photographer
dfstudios
Posts: 392
Mill Valley, California, US
Seriously, I would not have even kept up with the messaging.
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Daniela V wrote:
Can I ask why this was all done over IM? Do neither of you own phones? Because I happened to be at my computer working when we started chatting. I believe we had a conversation on the phone before this. It was simply convenience at the time.
As for maroon, haven't you people ever watched Bugs Bunny?
http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/57075/bugs10.wav
Sheesh. I knew it was stuffy in here, but not THAT stuffy. ;-)
Photographer
SayCheeZ!
Posts: 20642
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I've never had a conversation with a Maroon before, but I did have an interesting chat with a Teal and a Magenta one time.
Photographer
Amy J Jones Photography
Posts: 524
Fallston, Maryland, US
I'm speechless. Not surprised, but speechless. I wouldn't have gone near this shoot. Life is too short and you made the perfect decision to cut and run.
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
As for maroon, haven't you people ever watched Bugs Bunny?
Sheesh. I knew it was stuffy in here, but not THAT stuffy. ;-) As in the "What a maroon" line he loved to say? Come now, of course I know that one.
Stuffy? Clearly you can't take lighthearted ribbing...
Jay Bowman wrote:
Maroon?
I'm confused. Are you saying that you took her all the way out into the middle of the ocean and abandoned her on some island? Boy, you're a heartless one, I tell ya... SayCheeZ! wrote:
I've never had a conversation with a Maroon before, but I did have an interesting chat with a Teal and a Magenta one time.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21528
Chicago, Illinois, US
If a email or phone conversation when people start to drift into the
Twilight Zone on me I stop all talk cold. Life's too short.
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Just to show that I actually read your entertaining exchange (and additionally withholding any judgements on either side):
My favorite line is when she tells you to relax and that you're making a big deal out of it. Nice.
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25351
Santa Barbara, California, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Maroon?
I'm confused. Are you saying that you took her all the way out into the middle of the ocean and abandoned her on some island? Boy, you're a heartless one, I tell ya... maybe he meant macaroon?
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30131
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Photographer
SKPhoto
Posts: 25784
Newark, California, US
Actually I think bugs always said "what a macroon", a play on moron and macaroon.
Model
JamesP
Posts: 7
New York, New York, US
I had a conversation with a maroon colored shirt once. It was a pretty weird day.
Model
e-string
Posts: 24002
Kansas City, Missouri, US
I like how she brings your wife into it 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17825
El Segundo, California, US
Based on the 11:39 comments, I'd have just wrapped it up and apologized for having wasted everyone's time.
Unless the models were absolutely top agency-level, it just wouldn't have been worth the time to deal with the educational aspects or probable hassles which were red-flagged throughout the conversation.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
can we have conversations with macaroons too?
Star
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Stuffy? Clearly you can't take lighthearted ribbing... Do I have to explain what a ;-) is too?
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Garry k wrote:
Maroons are actually fugitive black slaves (and their descendents) Uh - yeah, and it's also someone that is stranded on an island...as in has no clue about what's going on...in addition to being a play on words of the word 'moron'. Maybe I should take back my ;-) !
I could have said airhead, idiot, moron, dipstick....but I chose something different and most have nothing better to say than comment on the word maroon. I guess this is what's called a "slow news day."
Photographer
Papa Vic Photography
Posts: 8211
Glendale, Arizona, US
SayCheeZ! wrote:
I've never had a conversation with a Maroon before, but I did have an interesting chat with a Teal and a Magenta one time. I had a conversation recently with a producer about a Three-Picture Teal, but it fell through and nothing ever came of it...
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25351
Santa Barbara, California, US
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Uh - yeah, and it's also someone that is stranded on an island...as in has no clue about what's going on...in addition to being a play on words of the word 'moron'. Maybe I should take back my ;-) !
I could have said airhead, idiot, moron, dipstick....but I chose something different and most have nothing better to say than comment on the word maroon. I guess this is what's called a "slow news day." No. It's kinda like being drawn to a thread titled "People who kan't spel suc!"
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
KM von Seidl wrote:
No. It's kinda like being drawn to a thread titled "People who kan't spel suc!" Is that anything like a thread titled 'Some People Have Nothing better To Do Than Peruse MM Threads and Purposely Misinterpret a Single Word From a Title (that has nothing to do with the actual content of the thread) and Find Ways to Choose an Unintended Definition of That Word In an Attempt to Call-out the Orignial Poster for Some Stupid Reason?'
Sorry you never watched Bugs Bunny. He was pretty funny - some good one-liners, too.
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25351
Santa Barbara, California, US
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Is that anything like a thread titled 'Some People Have Nothing better To Do Than Peruse MM Threads and Purposely Misinterpret a Single Word From a Title (that has nothing to do with the actual content of the thread) and Find Ways to Choose an Unintended Definition of That Word In an Attempt to Call-out the Orignial Poster for Some Stupid Reason?'
Sorry you never watched Bugs Bunny. He was pretty funny - some good one-liners, too. You sound really cranky. Can you try smoking a bowl or something?
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
KM von Seidl wrote:
You sound really cranky. Can you try smoking a bowl or something? Smoke a bowl? You mean a ceramic or plastic container used to eat food out of? How could I possibly smoke that? Surely that's what you mean by bowl.
I guess I didn't realize that by saying maroon, I MUST have meant I was calling the model a black slave from the Carribean, and not the infamous Bugs Bunny cartoon line (or even the definiton that a maroon is someone that is marooned on an island). How silly of me. Call Webster's and have them remove one of the definitions, please.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30131
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Is that anything like a thread titled 'Some People Have Nothing better To Do Than Peruse MM Threads and Purposely Misinterpret a Single Word From a Title (that has nothing to do with the actual content of the thread) and Find Ways to Choose an Unintended Definition of That Word In an Attempt to Call-out the Orignial Poster for Some Stupid Reason?'
Sorry you never watched Bugs Bunny. He was pretty funny - some good one-liners, too. Maybe its just that your title was more intereseting than the your "story "which quite frankly almost put me to sleep , What was your purpose in posting it and aren't your fingers really sore from all that typing ?
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Garry k wrote:
Maybe its just that your title was more intereseting than the your "story "which quite frankly almost put me to sleep , What was your purpose in posting it and aren't your fingers really sore from all that typing? Yeah - copy and paste is real hard on the fingers.
Sorry my story wasn't entertaining enough for you - because, you know, I wrote it JUST for you. Now my feelings are hurt.
I'm guessing you didn't get hugged enough as a kid.
Photographer
VSV
Posts: 3771
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
how many different maroon posts can we spin-off from this one?
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4839
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
So far - 2 - and both by the same person, 1 of which has nothing to do with modeling at all, and only points out his lack of comprehension, meaning, and intent of an American pop culture icon's saying. Now that I think about it, that Bugs was always an offensive one...maybe he really WAS calling people black slaves and it wasn't brought to my attention until now!
But Garry being in Canada really does explain a lot about his lack of understanding American pop culture. It's OK Garry, I forgive you. Let's chalk it up to ignorance of the reference used.
Model
Dances with Wolves
Posts: 25108
SHAWNEE ON DELAWARE, Pennsylvania, US
That's hysterical.
More people care about the title than the actual post.
Ok. It's hysterical to me.
*laughs to herself*
-D
Photographer
Tzalam
Posts: 548
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I am in Canada
I love Bugs and he's still funny 9 i got the DVD Set)
I know what you meant by maroon.
But after reading the IM chat I am still not sure who the real maroon, moron, idiot or what ever synonym you'd like to use.
"That'll learn ya! You varmint."
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30131
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
Yeah - copy and paste is real hard on the fingers.
Sorry my story wasn't entertaining enough for you - because, you know, I wrote it JUST for you. Now my feelings are hurt.
I'm guessing you didn't get hugged enough as a kid. You mean you typed it all out previsouly and thought it significent enough to keep adn use again ? Oh that is sad , man
Hey dont feel so bad ,,,If I have trouble sleeping some nite - I'll just refer to your post . So thanks a million
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30131
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Sleepy Weasel wrote:
So far - 2 - and both by the same person, 1 of which has nothing to do with modeling at all, and only points out his lack of comprehension, meaning, and intent of an American pop culture icon's saying. Now that I think about it, that Bugs was always an offensive one...maybe he really WAS calling people black slaves and it wasn't brought to my attention until now!
But Garry being in Canada really does explain a lot about his lack of understanding American pop culture. It's OK Garry, I forgive you. Let's chalk it up to ignorance of the reference used. Look I stopped watching cartoons when I was about 10 ( Bugs Bunny et al ) - so I can really offer no response to your Bugs Bunny references ...sorry
Maybe living in America - you have no understanding of Jamaican Culture .........?
|
