Curt Burgess wrote:
What does the release / agreement that they signed say?

Oh, there wasn't one????  shame on someone....

Yeah, there wasn't one.  Now I know why I have a stack of them sitting here but mind you, this is something I would not have even considered occuring.

Curt Burgess wrote:
What does the release / agreement that they signed say?

Oh, there wasn't one????  shame on someone....

Again.....

What did the release / agreement that was signed say?  He's supposedly changed the agreement, ie, now wanting $$ for "TFP" images.

Nobody around to give this model some advice?

RRCPhoto wrote:
Nothing was signed.  I did a shoot with her last week, so she felt I was someone to turn to to help her with this, and this is a "beats the heck of of me.." situation.

well.. then this is a good example of why it's always good to have a release/agreement signed even if it's TFP.  It's a nasty bait and switch trick on the photographer's part.

Curt Burgess wrote:
well.. then this is a good example of why it's always good to have a release/agreement signed even if it's TFP.  It's a nasty bait and switch trick on the photographer's part.

Very.

I like the agreements because it very much details out what I do after the shoot, and what the model gets.  No confusion, no muss and no fuss afterwards.  Everyone is happy.

But I guess it's also good for the model to demand the agreement as well if the photographer doesn't necessarily prompt.  I guess you could also state that's a measuring stick of the seriousness of the photographer - especially if they give you a blank stare and go .... "what's dat?"

Curt Burgess wrote:
well.. then this is a good example of why it's always good to have a release/agreement signed even if it's TFP.  It's a nasty bait and switch trick on the photographer's part.

RRCPhoto wrote:
Very.

I like the agreements because it very much details out what I do after the shoot, and what the model gets.  No confusion, no muss and no fuss afterwards.  Everyone is happy.

But I guess it's also good for the model to demand the agreement as well if the photographer doesn't necessarily prompt.  I guess you could also state that's a measuring stick of the seriousness of the photographer - especially if they give you a blank stare and go .... "what's dat?"

and this should all be settled before arriving at the shoot.

Madcitychel wrote:
How do you spell @ss-h-o-l-e?

Funny you should say that - that's exactly what I told her as well when she phoned me in tears.

To be honest, if I scheduled personally a TFP / CD shoot that had an agreement of nudity, I still feel it's up to the model to decide after she meets me on her level of comfort on a shoot.  Now if this is not a first shoot, and we have already established a working synergy, I would be a little miffed, but still I wouldn't hold it against her.  It's her right to choose as far as I'm concerned.

Even a paying nudity shoot - if she didn't feel comfortable, about the only thing I would discuss with her at the time was re-negotiation of the rates involved. 

But in any case, to continue shooting - and then after the fact decide, wait a second, give me money before you get the images - is, as you put it..being an ______ (insert phrase here)

Oddly enough, this photog photographed another model I worked with and she was scheduled to shoot again with me the subsequent week.  She fell off the face of the planet, even though we had a confirmed schedule and booking - so I'm wondering if this is not the first time.

As both a pretty honest guy and the fact that I have a daughter that is quickly approaching the age of some of the models, this does tick me off to say the least.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Not to come down on anyone but when someone tries to pressure you to
do something you don't want to do its time to leave.  Things almost always
turn out bad.  I know, I own not one but two time shares.  Don't ask. 
After the fact not much anyone can do and its up to the model on how she
wants to proceed.

He drove her to the location, so thus could not readily pick up and leave.

Richard Tallent wrote:
Shame on the photographer for not being clear *before* the shoot.

I *rarely* go beyond implied/sheer in my work, but I do make notes about each model's limits and style based on their portfolio, profile, and email/phone conversations.

If I suggest something and a model expresses a concern, I'm not afraid to suggest solutions (modesty getting into position, testing fabric sheerness, retouching/deleting malfunctions, etc.), but the model has the final say.

All I expect from models is that they (1) be open and honest before and during the shoot about how far they want to push their comfort zone, and (2) not infer that my suggestions are attempts at cohersion. If I get any vibe that they don't have an assertive personality and they are feeling like I'm pressuring them rather than collaborating with them, the discussion is over.

Exactly!  that I would expect from anyone.  There was one occasion that I wanted to do some implied - and it was discussed prior to the shoot as well.  I sat down with the model during the shoot and discussed (explained exactly the shots I wanted to take, her positioning and what could and would be seen) and watched her body reaction, and then decided not to do it, because I could see just from her body language that she wasn't exactly comfortable with it.  Why take a photo of someone in a position they are not comfortable in?  They sure as heck aren't going to come out good anyways.

RRCPhoto wrote:
A model that I was helping, got into this predictament from another photographer - to be honest, I was rather shocked by all of this, but wanted to pass this by MM just so I could give her more advice than "walk away and put a note up on your profile about this dude..."

Essentially the photog came, picked her up and took her to their shooting location, this was a TFP/TFCD arrangement.  I think because of language barrier issues, there was a misunderstanding between them prior to the shoot on whether or not she did or would do full nudity and what that actually entailed.  Her actual command of the english language would be considered poor, so any misunderstanding - I would expect a normal photographer to take that into consideration.

During the shoot she refused to do full nudity, but did do implied and partial nude shots.  However, full nude photographs, as I believe is her definate right to do so for any reason, she refused. 

I could see it being more of an issue on a shoot where the model was paid explicitedly for nude, but this wasn't the case.

The photog continued to shoot with her for the entire afternoon, During the shoot he attempted to convince her otherwise and leaned on her hard to do full nude shoots.  She held to her refusal and did not do them.  Today she got word from him that since she refused to do any nude shots, that she would have to pay him $200 + shipping for the CD / DVD to be released.

Now my first reaction was "ditch the guy" and make sure you make a very negative statement in your profile about this guy - as this type of behaviour really doesn't send a great message out to anyone.

I'm curious on any comments and advice I can pass onto her other than that.

RRCPhoto wrote:
The photog continued to shoot with her for the entire afternoon, During the shoot he attempted to convince her otherwise and leaned on her hard to do full nude shoots.  She held to her refusal and did not do them.  Today she got word from him that since she refused to do any nude shots, that she would have to pay him $200 + shipping for the CD / DVD to be released.

Have her take it to small claims court and be done with it.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I have several reactions:

My college advisor (Fred Brooks) has a semi-famous saying:  "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment".  My advice:  chalk this episode up as "experience" and encourage the model to come up with ways to avoid similar occurrences.  And she's free to avoid working with this photographer in the future.

One suggestion for future sittings:  Check references!  I don't know why folks don't check references more often.

My opinion:  A model has the absolute right to refuse to pose nude, and I mean that even if it was clear that the negoiated terms of the sitting included nude modeling, the model has the right to change her mind if she feels unsafe or uncomfortable for any reason.  I'd even go further to state that any photographer who even attempts to convince a model to stray outside of her comfort zone is an amateur.  However, if the expectation was "nude" & the model either changes her mind or simply refuses, the appropriate thing to do is to end the sitting right then & there.  By continuing to make images for the rest of the afternoon, the photographer has implicitedly agreed to the terms of the shoot & should be on the hook for delivering the resulting images.

The original post suggested making some negative comment about the photographer on her profile.  That's a bad, bad idea.  Never do this.  It forces the viewer to try to figure out which side is telling the truth, and the viewer can't do that.  But the viewer can see that the model is using her profile for negative & vindictive purposes -- she should be presenting herself in a positive light only.  Further, the moderators will likely take her profile down.

It is never a waste of time to document the details about a sitting in writing, and if the model has difficulty with English, she should get help.  Further, I believe that it is the photographer's responsibility to ensure that everyone has the same understanding.

Thanks, excellent points - the only point I would want to make - that I disagree about the notification. After an objective third party (moi) reviewed all emails and conversations and the conversations that occurred afterwards, I know if my daughter (who's now 14) got involved in modelling, I'd never want her thinking this guy was okay.  The attempting to convince during the shoot - I can possibly ignore down to a (he said / she said) if it wasn't for the blatent emails that I've read that occurred afterwards.

Besides checking references, and let's be honest, alot of models just simply don't respond to emails and/or inquiries from us photogs - lord knows how they'd do with other models asking for info.  So I'm not entirely convinced that works either.

My own "street smarts" tells me from reading through the emails prior that she shouldn't have agreed to the shoot - just because she's getting him to drive her to a location that is 2 hours away, and this is a first shoot.  All sorts of things can go wrong in that case.  However, the case being made, it paints a bad light on us all - we don't want ourselves being painted in the same light as this guy - whether or not we are established professionals or serious photographers building experience and honing our craft.

That being said, I'll sum up all these points to her, and then tell her to forward all emails in a lump over to OMP and let them figure it out on what's appropriate behaviour.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I have several reactions:

My college advisor (Fred Brooks) has a semi-famous saying:  "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment".  My advice:  chalk this episode up as "experience" and encourage the model to come up with ways to avoid similar occurrences.  And she's free to avoid working with this photographer in the future.

One suggestion for future sittings:  Check references!  I don't know why folks don't check references more often.

My opinion:  A model has the absolute right to refuse to pose nude, and I mean that even if it was clear that the negoiated terms of the sitting included nude modeling, the model has the right to change her mind if she feels unsafe or uncomfortable for any reason.  I'd even go further to state that any photographer who even attempts to convince a model to stray outside of her comfort zone is an amateur.  However, if the expectation was "nude" & the model either changes her mind or simply refuses, the appropriate thing to do is to end the sitting right then & there.  By continuing to make images for the rest of the afternoon, the photographer has implicitedly agreed to the terms of the shoot & should be on the hook for delivering the resulting images.

The original post suggested making some negative comment about the photographer on her profile.  That's a bad, bad idea.  Never do this.  It forces the viewer to try to figure out which side is telling the truth, and the viewer can't do that.  But the viewer can see that the model is using her profile for negative & vindictive purposes -- she should be presenting herself in a positive light only.  Further, the moderators will likely take her profile down.

It is never a waste of time to document the details about a sitting in writing, and if the model has difficulty with English, she should get help.  Further, I believe that it is the photographer's responsibility to ensure that everyone has the same understanding.

Thanks, excellent points - the only point I would want to make - that I disagree about the notification. After an objective third party (moi) reviewed all emails and conversations and the conversations that occurred afterwards, I know if my daughter (who's now 14) got involved in modelling, I'd never want her thinking this guy was okay.  The attempting to convince during the shoot - I can possibly ignore down to a (he said / she said) if it wasn't for the blatent emails that I've read that occurred afterwards.

Besides checking references, and let's be honest, alot of models just simply don't respond to emails and/or inquiries from us photogs - lord knows how they'd do with other models asking for info.  So I'm not entirely convinced that works either.

My own "street smarts" tells me from reading through the emails prior that she shouldn't have agreed to the shoot - just because she's getting him to drive her to a location that is 2 hours away, and this is a first shoot.  All sorts of things can go wrong in that case.  However, the case being made, it paints a bad light on us all - we don't want ourselves being painted in the same light as this guy - whether or not we are established professionals or serious photographers building experience and honing our craft.

That being said, I'll sum up all these points to her, and then tell her to forward all emails in a lump over to OMP and let them figure it out on what's appropriate.

RRCPhoto wrote:
He drove her to the location, so thus could not readily pick up and leave.

I'm assuming that this was her first shoot with this photographer.  I don't know about others, but I don't think I'd be too comfortable having a photographer pick me up and take me somewhere without me having someone else there with me.  It just goes against my better judgement.  I could understand if she knew him personally, like a friend, or if she'd worked with him several times, but the first time out?  No way.

Also, you said she doesn't speak English very well?  If this is the case, then I'd definitely suggest to her that from now on, she takes someone with her, preferably someone who can speak both her language and the photographer's.  That way not only will she have someone to back her up if the photographer pressures her, but this person can also act as translator if things get confusing.

Some people think I'm a bit silly for this, but I almost always print out whatever online correspondence I have from the photographer concerning what is expected for the shoot.  That way if they don't have an agreement/waiver ready to be signed before the shoot takes place, I can still point to a piece of paper and say, "This is what you told me I was here to do, and that is all I will do."

RRCPhoto wrote:
Thanks, excellent points - the only point I would want to make - that I disagree about the notification. After an objective third party (moi) reviewed all emails and conversations and the conversations that occurred afterwards, I know if my daughter (who's now 14) got involved in modelling, I'd never want her thinking this guy was okay.  The attempting to convince during the shoot - I can possibly ignore down to a (he said / she said) if it wasn't for the blatent emails that I've read that occurred afterwards.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I kinda think you are saying that it's okay for her to post the photographer's name on her profile, warning other models away from him.  Here's why I think it's a bad idea.

Model Sue says on her profile:  "Sam the photographer groped me inappropriately."

Can she prove it?  What's Sam's side of the story?  What really happened?  All we see is Sue's side of the story, and she expects us to condemn Sam, based solely on her side of the story.  Why should we believe her, especially since Sam hasn't even been given a chance to respond?  What's the whole truth?

So, based on what we see on her profile, we really don't know what happened, and we are expected to condemn Sam for actions he may or may not have done.

Still, we do know this:  Sue's profile was & is intended for her to present herself to potential photographers & clients.  What does her statement about Sam tell us about the kind of person Sue is?  To me, it tells us that Sue is vindictive, vengeful, and that she doesn't always deal fairly during conflict resolution.  Her profile should put her in a positive light, and her using the profile to "out" this photographer is anything but positive.

Moreover, the photographer can take exception to her posting.  He may even be able to show damages (e.g. models refusing to work for him, based on Sue's posting).  Can she prove her allegations?  For example, how do we know that the photographer tried to coerce her into posing nude multiple times?  We only have her word for that.  (I'm not saying that it didn't happen; I'm only saying that we have only one side of the story).  So, he can show damages, and he can invite lawyers into the model's life.

Worse, he can invite lawyers into Model Mayhem's life, too.  After all, the "slander" is posted here on MM.

Thus, if the moderators get wind of that, they will ask the model to take down the notice, or they may take down the model's profile altogether.