Doug Sampson wrote:
Is any of the arrangements made by messaging on MM considered any kind of binding contract like payments, not showing up etc?

The contract is not worth the paper it isn't written on.

Mayanlee wrote:
Dunno, specifically. Generally speaking, any kind of communication where it can be demonstrated that intent and agreement occurred between both parties, it can be taken as a binding contract. And I suppose it also depends  (if you're going to pursue it), if you can demonstrate direct harm or damage as a result of the no-show.

It's too bad; the days of the gentlemen's agreement seem long gone.

This has happened twice in a week with "professional" models in which over a good sum of money was involved, a lot of arrangement made, vacation planned, etc and them............nothing. Not even a word of warning.

David Linke wrote:

The contract is not worth the paper it isn't written on.

Guess that about sums it up.

Mayanlee wrote:
Dunno, specifically. Generally speaking, any kind of communication where it can be demonstrated that intent and agreement occurred between both parties, it can be taken as a binding contract. And I suppose it also depends  (if you're going to pursue it), if you can demonstrate direct harm or damage as a result of the no-show.

It's too bad; the days of the gentlemen's agreement seem long gone.

There's one missing element "consideration".  Since nothing of any value changed hands prior to anything happening, it can be argued that there has been no "consideration" for a contract, therefore, none exists.

Doug Sampson wrote:
Would any of you photographers like to know who they are so you can avoid the same headaches I went through?

Since Ohio borders Michigan, yes.  Message me.

David Linke wrote:
There's one missing element "consideration".  Since nothing of any value changed hands prior to anything happening, it can be argued that there has been no "consideration" for a contract, therefore, none exists.

That depends. If the photographer relied upon a representation that the model was going to show and shoot with him, and the photographer expended time, money and other "valuable consideration," she could be considered in breach of contract.

"Valuable consideration" is a pretty loose and arguable term. She didn't have to present to be considered in contract with the photographer and a cash element or goods exchanged to be in breach.

But then again, other than the aggravation, is it worth going after it? If they, for example, agreed to shoot haute couture and he bought or rented clothing for the purpose (no small bucks), what then?

The OP took time off from work, resulting in loss of income. That's one element of "damage."

Mayanlee wrote:

That depends. If the photographer relied upon a representation that the model was going to show and shoot with him, and the photographer expended time, money and other "valuable consideration," she could be considered in breach of contract.

"Valuable consideration" is a pretty loose and arguable term. She didn't have to present to be considered in contract with the photographer and a cash element or goods exchanged to be in breach.

But then again, other than the aggravation, is it worth going after it? If they, for example, agreed to shoot haute couture and he bought or rented clothing for the purpose (no small bucks), what then?

Untill the "consideration" passes between the parties of the contract, there is no contract.

David Linke wrote:
Untill the "consideration" passes between the parties of the contract, there is no contract.

LOL.  I've never known it to stop someone from entering into a suit if s/he thought it worth his/her while. (I make no claim to understand what their reasons for doing it was, other than to cause the other party a lot of hassle.)

David Linke wrote:

Untill the "consideration" passes between the parties of the contract, there is no contract.

This isn't entirely accurate.  Consideration is indeed one of the required of any legitimate contract, but consideration does not need to change hands before a contract becomes a binding agreement.  If I entered into a contract for the installation of a new garage door, and sign an agreement with the provider that outlines the payment for services, than I am liable to complete the arrangement.  I may choose to reneg on the deal, but then I would be held liable per the terms of the document. 

A contract must include consideration, but it does NOT need to be exchanged immediately at the contract's inception for the contract to be valid.  Contract law 101.

Mayanlee wrote:
It's too bad; the days of the gentlemen's agreement seem long gone.

Just like the days of dueling.  Now that's a way to resolve disputes!

Brian Diaz wrote:

Just like the days of dueling.  Now that's a way to resolve disputes!

I've got a couple of foils and a saber in my garage ....

Doug Sampson wrote:
I was told at one time that to get the photos I need for my port to get out the $$$ and pay someone. Well I am finding out that doesn't even seem to work!

Now I don't know exactly what it is you're looking for, but you should be able to find people willing to help you out without having to shell out the $$$ -- or at least too many $.

You learn lighting and basic posing on friends. You learn more advanced skills on people you meet at school or at the office or in stores or wherever. You get the really good stuff here or on OMP, but even then, there are lots of models who will work TFP or TFCD. If you have a decent portfolio, you should be able to find who you're looking for.

Mayanlee wrote:

I've got a couple of foils and a saber in my garage ....

That's totally the hottest thing I've heard all day.

You have...a garage?!?  Now that's sexy.

Doug Sampson wrote:
Is any of the arrangements made by messaging on MM considered any kind of binding contract like payments, not showing up etc?

Nope, it's the internet. Nothing is real until it has happened in 'real life'. This is both the internet an MM, relax and enjoy the entertainment value for what it's worth.

David Linke wrote:

There's one missing element "consideration".  Since nothing of any value changed hands prior to anything happening, it can be argued that there has been no "consideration" for a contract, therefore, none exists.

I reckon Mayanlee is right. It's called Offer and Acceptance. It's binding.

There's one missing element "consideration".  Since nothing of any value changed hands prior to anything happening, it can be argued that there has been no "consideration" for a contract, therefore, none exists.

Not being a lawyer my word means as much as any other analysis on this thread, but consideration can be as simple as giving up one's time.  In which case, if I could collect, I'd be able to cash in huge on the number of no-shows I've suffered without so much as an apology either before or after the fact.

Consideration means I agree to give you something in return for you giving me something.  If I agree to give you my time and you agree to give me yours and I show up at the shoot only to drive, wait, fume and bail and you give me nothing in return, they you've violated our agreement.

However, like the first respondent said, the contract ain't worth the paper it's written on.  I think that's the most important thing.

David Linke wrote:
The contract is not worth the paper it isn't written on.

Just so everyone knows - the original saying is:

""a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on."

by Samuel Goldwyn

Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios (MGM)

-Glenn

Oh, and a few other famous "Goldwynisms":

"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."

"I may not be always right, but I'm never wrong."

"A producer shouldn't get ulcers; he should give them."

"I'll give you a definite maybe."

"Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined."

Stephen Melvin wrote:
You get the really good stuff here or on OMP...

dang, you mean i didnt have to spend all that time and money on agency girls? dayum... i wanna get some really good stuff!

Doug Sampson wrote:
Would any of you photographers like to know who they are so you can avoid the same headaches I went through?

[email protected]

Doug Sampson wrote:
Is any of the arrangements made by messaging on MM considered any kind of binding contract like payments, not showing up etc?

I would love to know the answer to this question as well.  I just had a model cancel a shoot on me the same day on this past Monday.  He left me a message saying he suddenly became ill and wouldn't be at his best if we proceeded with the shoot.  What was I to say? 

What really pisses me off about models is that if I am paying the model and they cancel it's ok but if I cancel then there's a cancellation fee.  Why is there such a double standard?  He has since contacted me saying he wants to reshoot.  Frankly, I want to tell him look I changed plans, packed my gear & gathered wardrobe for this shoot.  I don't feel I should be charged the original amount.

I had another model that I scheduled a shoot with and literally two or three days after the shoot I realized that it just wasn't doable b/c I had to pick him up and I had other plans that evening and forgot to allow proper travel time.  When I emailed him to cancel he got rather irate saying in his 10yrs of modeling no ones ever canceled a shoot on him and he wanted the cancellation fee.  My first thought was you've got to be kidding.  Just to keep the peace I paid him the full amount as if we actually did the shoot. I wasn't happy but didn't want bad blood.

I think if model's had to pay cancellation fees there would be less flaky models.

Mayanlee wrote:
It's too bad; the days of the gentlemen's agreement seem long gone.

Only if you fail to deal with ladies or gentlemen.

Photos By Deej wrote:
I
What really pisses me off about models is that if I am paying the model and they cancel it's ok but if I cancel then there's a cancellation fee.  Why is there such a double standard?  He has since contacted me saying he wants to reshoot.  Frankly, I want to tell him look I changed plans, packed my gear & gathered wardrobe for this shoot.  I don't feel I should be charged the original amount.

The agreement is what you agreed to. If you don't agree to the condition, it's a moot point. If you condition a cancellation fee and the model agrees, again it's a moot point. So what's your point?

Photos By Deej wrote:
I had another model that I scheduled a shoot with and literally two or three days after the shoot I realized that it just wasn't doable b/c I had to pick him up and I had other plans that evening and forgot to allow proper travel time.  When I emailed him to cancel he got rather irate saying in his 10yrs of modeling no ones ever canceled a shoot on him and he wanted the cancellation fee.  My first thought was you've got to be kidding.  Just to keep the peace I paid him the full amount as if we actually did the shoot. I wasn't happy but didn't want bad blood.

I think if model's had to pay cancellation fees there would be less flaky models.

How much lead time was there before the shoot when you cancelled?

Negotiation ... it's a useful skill.

Eric Zoolander wrote:

Only if you fail to deal with ladies or gentlemen.

Good point. Touche.

Mayanlee wrote:
How much lead time was there before the shoot when you cancelled?

Negotiation ... it's a useful skill.

I cancelled a few days after I scheduled which was 2 weeks prior to the shoot.