Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

I'll respond to the first part of this question that isn't in the release threads.... It depends on the photographer.  Some very common purposes (at least for me) are:
1. I'm trying out new equipment or lighting techniques and need a model to practice on and as payment I'll give her images.
2. I am looking to add a specific type (image or person) to my portfolio to open up other revenue streams and as payment I'll provide images to the model.  For example, for a while my portfolio was VERY white and blonde.  I had very little ethnicity representetd in my book even though I live in LA and could do a great deal of business with 'ethnic' individuals and they needed to see I could shoot them in ways they would like so I specifically sought out models of a variety of ethnicities.
3. For artistic shots that I plan on selling, I will offer images and prints as payment for inexperienced models which often gets them paying work with others.  In some cases (very rare) I will pay a model for such shots if I feel they can provide something I cannot get in a trade shoot.

In all cases, the model is receiving something of value.  I did not cover shoots where the model gets paid in cash because you only asked what a photog does with images shot TFCD.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

If you sign a typical release, you do not have any of these "rights" you are claiming.  In fact, even if you don't sign a release, the photographer & not the model retains the copyright.  If you want some such rights, you need to negotiate those before the sitting (and yes, get those rights in writing).

What the photographer does with those images is totally up to him -- he holds the copyright.  If he so wants, he can take your face & photoshop it onto the body of an elephant.  If he earns money from it, he is not obligated to share it.  Some photographers will share, some will not, but unless you have that special, non-standard release, he is not obligated.  You, on the other hand, will need to negotiate with the photographer for the ability to use those images of yourself.  For example, if you want to post an image of yourself on your portfolio, you will need the photographer's permission to do so.

The thinking here is that the photographer is taking all the risk.  There is no guarantee that work with a new model will produce marketable images, and there is a significant amount of effort on the part of the photographer to process those images. 

Dem's the hard facts.

Yes, that's the down side to TFP -- it is not always a good deal for models.  The upside for models, however, is the possibility of working with photographers who may otherwise be unavailable to you, and the possibility of getting some nice images that may demonstrate your value as a model & hopefully lead to future work.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field...

I would like to make money off the photos, also.

Brandi, I'd like to address this last part of your post. In a very real way, you can make money off the photos, and the chances are likely, judging by your portfolio, that you will.

Consider the vast number of "starter" portfolios on here with lousy self-portraits shot with camera phones or god-knows-what. Look at the most frequent comments made on those portfolios.... "get yourself some professional photos". Why? Because you can't sell yourself with lousy photos. And the key word is "sell". If you want me or any photographer to give you and not some other model money for posing, there has a be a reason. Most often, the entry point for that incentive is the quality of your portfolio, those TFCD/TFP images you didn't have to pay money for, but which have the potential for making money for you.

As to the photographer making gobs of cash from your TFCD/TFP shots, it probably isn't going to happen. And if it does, chances are it will come along in the same way as your cash does. Someone sees the work the photographer has done of you and offers to pay cash for similar quality shots.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

Its all in a contract or model release, depends what you sign before the shoot. If you agree that photographer will be making money from photograph of you and in return you will get prints or a CD than its fine, but if you want to sell your photographs or anything like that, than you need to sign a contract allowing you to do so. You just need to find a right photographer for your needs and have an agreement with him.

sergei
www.sergeibelski.com

PS. you have a beautiful portfolio

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

As someone else said, it depends on the agreement.  TFP can mean sooooo many things.

Think of this way...a photographer that would normally bill a session at $2,000 is willing to do TFP for you.  Essentially, he's giving YOU $2,000 to hire him.  So with that TFP agreement, he may want to have you sign a release to allow him to sell your photos in order for him to make up some or all of their expenses. 

There is nothing wrong with you wanting more, but understand and accept that that photographer then may no longer be interested in working with you.

on the flip side, I shot with Flo Jalin 2 years ago.  She's a reasonably well known import model and has been on several magazine covers (import car magazines...those types).  Being a n00b at the time and having a chance to work with a pro, I was more than willing and happy to pay her.  She did not have her own release nor did she require me to have one.  When I asked her about it, that's when we REALLY talked about what the photos were to be used for.  Since I was only looking for portfolio purposes, her rate didn't change.  Had I wanted to use them in order to profit from those photos, her rates were going to INCREASE substantially.  And this, to me anyhow, makes obvious sense.

My point is, before you shoot with anyone and especially before you sign anything, discuss the usage of the photos.  Then based on that usage, discuss compensation (TFP IS compensation just like cash, it's just a different form.  If they offered you a car, would you turn it down?).  Once you have both agreed to the terms of the shoot, you're set.

I have never brought a release to any shoot I have done. I have shot with amateurs up to pros.  Once I figure out what I want to do with my photographer and have a clear direction of what I want to use a particular photo(s) for, I have no need of a release.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

Brandi,

You would be better off charging for your time, and not doing TFP shoots.

In most cases TFP means you are trading your modeling time for prints from the photographer. If your are realy getting real prints then you have been paid. But now days a lot of photographers give the models a few images on a cd with no reselling rights.

Also a lot of guys, and gals with a camera, are not photographers, but camera operators. 

Get paid and smile all the way to the bank.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

Let me preface. I typically do not profit from TFP photos.

But, don't think it's unfair for another photographer to do so. Think about it this way. Let's say his day rate is $400. When he books a TFP with you, he needs to make up that revenue somewhere. If he has an outlet for the photos then that's a good place for him to do that. He got something of value.

You on the other hand need photos so that you can keep your portfolio updated and fresh. You need the updated photos so that you can get paying jobs. You're getting something of value. While the photographer is profiting directly from your photos, you are profiting indirectly from them. You got something of value.

Even though you are not profiting directly from his photos, they are helping you to make some money. Would it therefore be fair for you to give him a percentage of your paid gigs? Probably not.

Also, get over the mindset that photographers are making a fortune from selling stock images. In most cases, we're really not. So, even if he were to give you a small percentage it wouldn't be that much money anyways.

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

Brandi,

It sounds to me like your post and your interest in modeling has to do with money.  Good for you.  And since you already have that southern girl homestyle smile and posing going on in your portfolio, and you don't seem to have dreams of moving to Milan, just avoid TFP.   There are TONS of guys in your neck of the woods, good photographers, bad ones, ones who are just going to stash your photos in their own private drawer and remember back to that balmy summer day of shooting, who will pay you.  Then you don't have to worry one second about getting ripped off and your money is already in the bank.


Or, on the other hand you can learn photography and take photos of yourself and sell them to all these places photographers are getting rich from.

Marvin Dockery wrote:
Brandi,

You would be better off charging for your time, and not doing TFP shoots.

In most cases TFP means you are trading your modeling time for prints from the photographer. If your are realy getting real prints then you have been paid. But now days a lot of photographers give the models a few images on a cd with no reselling rights.

Also a lot of guys, and gals with a camera, are not photographers, but camera operators. 

Get paid and smile all the way to the bank.

She's NEW.  That means that she hasn't a clue about what she's doing.  It's like walking up to the nearest hot dog stand and hiring that guy to be the CFO of your billion dollar corporation.  Why in the world would you advise a new model to start charging?

To the OP:
Don't listen to him.  There are enough modeling newbies attempting(and failing) to charge for their time.  You have two options:
1.) Do TFP/CD's to build your port and experience with good photogs over time.
2.) If you're really interested in the cash, study up and then pay a few great photogs to help you create a marketable portfolio.

Eric S. wrote:
You know when you see all those ads for escort services, adult classifieds, and 900 sex chats in newspapers and magazines? You know, the shots of the cute pretty girls sucking on their finger in a suggestive manner? All those images came from tfcd shoots and give photographers a great source of income

nice

Brandi_Nicole wrote:
OK so I am new to the modeling field and I was wondering when I do TFP, what does the photographer do with the photos.  And if he/she is selling them why don't I get a percentage?  So is TFP like my time so that he can make money selling them and I have the rights to the photos but yet I don't have a right to the percentage he gets when he/she sells my photos?  If that is the case...where can I sell my photos, cause I would like to make money off the photos, also.

That's a popular question and there is no firm answer to it. First, there is no standard TFP session, it's all about what you negotiate. If you want a percentage of sales, then ask for it. But what I'm afraid you'll find is that you have a percent of zero. Most photographers on the forums make little or no effort to sell the images they produce. Those who try for sales are largely disapointed with the results. 

In the past, long before I closed my studio and 'retired', I offererd a percentage to the models I worked with. What I ended up with was a bookkeeping nightmare. I ended up with some envelopes of cash in my file cabinet for an extended time period for models I could not locate. Models move in with roommates/boyfriends and have no phone in their names. Models get married and change their names. They get divorced and move, often changing their name. They move out of state, often across the country. It would require an intensive investigation to locate them. What they all had in common was forgetting to keep in touch with the photograher.

When I do a shoot, occasionally images sell  within weeks, but usually it's more like years; frequently they never sell. After a lifetime of photography, I still find it impossible to pick which images will sell and which will not. On a few of occasions I received 'demands' from a model to allow her or more oftn a boyfriend to review my accounting records as they simply did not believe the images of them did not sell. To be honest, it was a total nightmare.

So for the past 10 or 12 years, I have not offered  percent of sales and will not in the future. Instead I offer the model post processed images and a print of th images I anticipate using, long with unlimited use rights. I think most photographers shared my experience and do not ofer a percent.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

She's NEW.  That means that she hasn't a clue about what she's doing.  It's like walking up to the nearest hot dog stand and hiring that guy to be the CFO of your billion dollar corporation.  Why in the world would you advise a new model to start charging?

To the OP:
Don't listen to him.  There are enough modeling newbies attempting(and failing) to charge for their time.  You have two options:
1.) Do TFP/CD's to build your port and experience with good photogs over time.
2.) If you're really interested in the cash, study up and then pay a few great photogs to help you create a marketable portfolio.

You're right, she needs to figure out what she wants or can do.  Traditional modeling via agencies or the internet route.   

If she just wants to be an internet model why wait to charge?  There are guys who will pay her as of yesterday.   And since her post focused on money and not about how to get into an agency, it seems like she should just start asking for $$.