Michael L. wrote:
Did you agree to this prior to shooting or is this a "make it up as you go along" kind of a bullshit? Did you sign a release? I don't have a clue with regards to Canadian copyright laws, anybody?

I only signed a model release from for the pictures there was no surrender of my applications. And he pulled it on me after we were done shooting. He is gettig full credits for the pictures he too and the artistic concept for the ones he came up with.

Colford Studios wrote:
He's an idiot.  The more my images are shown the happier I am, as long as proper credit is given to me as the photographer.  Did he give you copies of the images and now tell you not to use them?

Just the lack of common sense too, why would you do a shoot with him and NOT want to use the images?  Well unless you were paid and then that could be a different story.

I wasn't paid and I have a copy of every image to distibute them to all the other models.

Lou-femi wrote:
I wasn't paid and I have a copy of every image to distibute them to all the other models.

well then, time u kept the copies u want for you, and tell him to give to make new ones for the other models (or just make copies of the ones u have). ive never heard anything so stupid as a photographer who doesnt want certain people to have certain shots....its ridiculous.....if hes got any sense at all, he'll want everyone involved in the shoot to only have (and post) the BEST shots....otherwise hes doing himself an injustice by advertising poorer quality work.

i dont understand the 'first choice thing' either, what a tosser! does he give himself a prize if he picks the best ones?

stand up for yourself......and if u have any dramas with him while u are trying to get what is rightfully yours, then dont worry, i wouldnt work with him again if i were u anyway. if he thinks his passion is more important that yours, he doesnt deserve you.

gavin oneill wrote:
well then, time u kept the copies u want for you, and tell him to give to make new ones for the other models (or just make copies of the ones u have). ive never heard anything so stupid as a photographer who doesnt want certain people to have certain shots....its ridiculous.....if hes got any sense at all, he'll want everyone involved in the shoot to only have (and post) the BEST shots....otherwise hes doing himself an injustice by advertising poorer quality work.

i dont understand the 'first choice thing' either, what a tosser! does he give himself a prize if he picks the best ones?

stand up for yourself......and if u have any dramas with him while u are trying to get what is rightfully yours, then dont worry, i wouldnt work with him again if i were u anyway. if he thinks his passion is more important that yours, he doesnt deserve you.

Although we may not agree with the photographer you must keep in mind:
1. You should not advocate theft and copyright infringement.
2. We do not know the whole [impartial] story.
3. All this sounds like trying to bang out conditions after the fact. Next time, the OP should establish all terms before any work takes place.

Most importantly, he has the right to control his copyrighted creations so whether he wants to release second rate work or bottom of the barrel work that is his business. Unless he is breaching an oral/written contract he is fully within his rights.

Now the third bold point is a little more sensible.
Next time get all terms up front and then decide on whether to take the job or not.

Pixel Fisher wrote:
Yes by the laws of copyright, the photographer will always retain ownership, even if the make-up artist and model and anyone else who contributes expense money...they only way for this to become different is that there is a contract written and signed prior to any shoot.

True in the US. Not necessarily true in Canada. That's where they are.

Yuriy wrote:
Now the third bold point is a little more sensible.
Next time get all terms up front and then decide on whether to take the job or not.

but i gotta wonder, under what possible rationale, does he have the desire to prevent all the people that worked with him, some who may have even put in more effort that him, from also using the best shots from the shoot??? im not contesting that he has the right do do whatever he wants, but why on earth would someone do that?
i understand photographers saying that m-up artists and models can only choose the same shots he does, coz thats what i do, but its a time thing, where if im going to spend time retouching things and doing proof prints and things, i dont want 47 different prints to do, i want to cut it down to the best ones, and let everybody have the same pics.....and i take the opinions of the crew into account when im choosing my pics, so everyone is generally happy.

why is 'talking about this before the shoot' even an issue??? talking about what? arent we all in this for the same thing, to create and share and celebrate our collaborations and efforst?this is clearly an ego thing for him, and he needs to be left to work with talentless people who have no self respect.  the guys is an ass, period.

Pixel Fisher wrote:
Make -up artists do not sign "Model" releases.  In my 20 + years shooting I have never heard of this...why and how did you ever get there with this photographer...and were the hell are these people in this industry coming up with all this.

FYI, she said she also modeled for some of the photos as well as having acted as a make-up artist.

I have often wondered what the exact ramifications are in Canada on copyright.  Their situation is different than in the U.S.  In the states, the photographer always holds the copyright, unless it was a work for hire.

In Canada, if you pay a photographer to shoot you, it is you, not the photographer that owns the copyright.  It is backwards from here.

What I find interesting is in a TFP, the service of each party is a form of payment to the other.  I have no idea how that would fall into Canadian law.   I don't intend to speculate.

But it is interesing.  A model might argue that she paid the photographer with in-kind services, i.e. modeling.  I have no idea.  I haven't read the statutes, but I did do a little quick research and could find no Canadian cases on copyright and TFP (I doubt that any would get to an appellate court since there really isn't a lot of money involved).

Interesting question though.

To the OP, always negotiate in advance, not after the job is over.

StudioMona wrote:
It all boils down to what you all agreed in the beginning. If nothing was agreed upon before the shoot, you end up  with this situation. Learn from this and move on. Just my thoughts

I'll be curious to know what the others will say also.

Sometimes harsh to learn but true.

Lou-femi wrote:
I just got off a shoot with a photographer who doesn't want me to post any pictures that he posts but we created them together. He came up with teh consepts for all but one which I designed. I did all the SPFX/ make-up and even modeled in some of them but he wants me to only post different poses . He also gets first pick since they are 'his photos'

Is this right because I've never had any other photographer make these requests and to be quite honest some of the set ups only have one good shot.

Every photographer has the own quirks and that's not one of mine.  However, if I model I photographed posts a picture I already have posted I will change the one I have posted to a different pose or setting for variety sake.  I know I don't like going to photographer's portfolio and seeing a great shot of a model and then click on the model link and see the exact same shot.  The reason I click on the model link is to see something different. 

In your case I don't know if it's a question of right or wrong it just is.  Hopefully, you were made aware of this beforehand.  If not, then this will set the standard for you to ask at future photoshoots.  Every photoshoot is a learning and growing experience or at least it can be.  Believe me I've learned a lot as models have their own quirks too.  It's a part of this business I don't favor but it comes with the territory.

Pixel Fisher wrote:
Make -up artists do not sign "Model" releases.  In my 20 + years shooting I have never heard of this...why and how did you ever get there with this photographer...and were the hell are these people in this industry coming up with all this.

Here I will defend him. the release form was signed because he had me double as a model for time when a model pulled a no-show.

bang bang photo wrote:
Business 101 says -- it is always in your best interest, and also is the most ethical practice to negotiate any terms you require BEFORE work commences. After work commences or worse, after it is done, you have given up virtually all of the leverage you have to obtain terms you require.

Regards,
Paul

Right, right, right!....Seems people get photography confused with business.

I ALWAYS spell out exactly what, who, where and when BEFORE I even take the lens cap off. It's difficult to be creative when you have to wonder who's going to sue you.

I think most everyone here needs some business courses rather than modeling school or photography seminars. The most important thing I ever did was take Business Administration in college. Photography I learned on my own.