WG Rowland wrote:
Right now there's one going around about killer headshots that is absolutely contradictory to what I'd previously heard about what a model needs in her port which was:

- full body, front/back (or was it front side?)
- Head shot front/side (and maybe 3/4?)
- Non exotic lighting (aka flat)
- No makeup..

absolutely true.....it blows me away sometimes to hear certain people giving advice about how to 'make it' and then i notice their book and its absolute crap.....!

THERE IS NO RECIPE people!!!!! what makes u succeed is just having things in your book that are beautiful, just things that people want to look at. no fashion editor, model agency, or 'industry' person ive ever met has said to a model "i really like your book, your pictures are stunning, you're amazing, wow,......but you are missing a 3/4 head shot from the right, so we're gonna have to pass, thanks for coming"  :-/

WG Rowland wrote:
Yes, sir.. I'll get back to washing the dishes..

Did you and Black Ricco want your breakfast in bed, or were you two going to get out of there before noon?

Well, since he is no longer able to post, I have absolutely no fear of him and can tell you the truth of the matter. Currently in an effort to learn how to become a quality photographer he has become my junior assisstant's assistant. He is in the back room sweeping the floor and straightening my files. Later he will be washing my car and then picking up my dry cleaning. The wife and I are having friends over for a casual dinner where he will be serving only the salad portion of the meal because as you know from previous posts, I prefer the spinning salad and he has shown himself to be good at sitting and spinning.

WG Rowland wrote:
Glad others are as confused as I am.. But there is still a question on the table:

- Glamourshots/Actor's CompCard headshots, or...
- unadorned, show me what you look like headshots..

Or better yet, skip the a or b and someone who knows what they're talking about tell us when you would need one and why, and when you would need the other... And why..

surely it just comes down to a) what suits u, or b) what uve been able to get in your shoots so far (ie, what pictures u have as options for what to use)?
i think telling photographers what u need for your book, is kinda futile and naive, and there is little difference between that and a 5'4" 28 year old very commercial model with implants telling a photographer "i need something more 'edgy' for my book"! (all those descriptions are not based on anyone in particular .
as i said earlier, there is no recipe for what will impress people and what will get booked, and outside of the basic parameters of an 'actors headshot' and a fashion one, anyone who trys to tell you about 'specific' things u need in a headshot is probably out of the loop a little. what u need is a KILLER headshot, regardless of how it would be catagorised......just get a great headshot and use it.

as with the basics of model/photographer relationships, i would think the model would inspire a good photographer to shoot what she is capable of shooting, and there would lie the answer as to what to use for your headshot. generally what u are best for is what u will get hired for....

gavin oneill wrote:
surely it just comes down to a) what suits u, or b) what uve been able to get in your shoots so far (ie, what pictures u have as options for what to use)?
i think telling photographers what u need for your book, is kinda futile and naive, and there is little difference between that and a 5'4" 28 year old very commercial model with implants telling a photographer "i need something more 'edgy' for my book"! (all those descriptions are not based on anyone in particular .
as i said earlier, there is no recipe for what will impress people and what will get booked, and outside of the basic parameters of an 'actors headshot' and a fashion one, anyone who trys to tell you about 'specific' things u need in a headshot is probably out of the loop a little. what u need is a KILLER headshot, regardless of how it would be catagorised......just get a great headshot and use it.

as with the basics of model/photographer relationships, i would think the model would inspire a good photographer to shoot what she is capable of shooting, and there would lie the answer as to what to use for your headshot. generally what u are best for is what u will get hired for....

Yes.. But a model with eyes on the dollar signs does have a specific audience.. One that's outside of my purvue (as a shooter of things artsy, fartsy, and crap) to direct her on.  Specifically: the agency. 

Here is where the advice gets confusing..  The agency (I believe these mythical places exist in a suburb a few blocks south from Valhalla) already knows what a good photographer can do to you.. And thus, as I understand it, just wants to see you.. Unadorned, without makeup or lights or the shop photographique..  And thus.. The "killer" headshot need not apply.  And yet there are other situations where obviously you want to show your book, and you want the viewer to find him/her/itself uncontrollably wetting themselves with unexpected extatic bliss..

But does the uncontrolled bed wetting get you the next job, or is it the county jail mug shot..

I'm not even an aspiring model and I'm confused.. 

Which is why I begin to wonder if the advice of just any and every photog who's figured out how to make him/her/itself a monthly paycheck out of the clicky-clicky and the photo-shoppy is actually going to translate into success or failure for a model who may well have a very different set of needs for producing that same monthly check...

WG Rowland wrote:
Whoops.. This is turning into a bashing in absentia thread..  Don't know if it's against MM rules.. But I'm not too fond of em..

HEADSHOTS?  Anyone?  Anyone?

Not bashing, kinda hoping he's reading this so he can come back on and kick my ass. I miss the fun days of MM.

WG Rowland wrote:
But does the uncontrolled bed wetting get you the next job, or is it the county jail mug shot..

i think an agency would generally ask for the 'mugshot' headshot either if u are the kind of model who can pull off that look (which very few can), or [mainly] to show people (photographers) they wish to propose you to the 'raw you' to try to inspire them with a fresh canvas.........but i think you are really talking about a polaroid v a headshot?? somewhere along the way, this 'raw' polaroid look has made its way into peoples portfolios and into some editorial magazines.....but unless you are a member of the top section of the modelling world, i wouldnt go putting the 'mugshot' on your comp card or anything.....just stick with the objective of getting yourself a great headshot.

the question of models worrying about which of the 2 they need can often just be the misperception of thinking they are in the 'top section'.....

WG Rowland wrote:
Here is where the advice gets confusing..  The agency (I believe these mythical places exist in a suburb a few blocks south from Valhalla) already knows what a good photographer can do to you.. And thus, as I understand it, just wants to see you.. Unadorned, without makeup or lights or the shop photographique..  And thus.. The "killer" headshot need not apply.  And yet there are other situations where obviously you want to show your book, and you want the viewer to find him/her/itself uncontrollably wetting themselves with unexpected extatic bliss..

Here's the problem:  people treat agencies as though they were generic, and whatever one or a few of them that someone has experienced, or read about, wants is the Laws Of The Industry.  We see it all the time.

The trouble is, it isn't so.  What agencies want depends on the type of agency, their location, and their relationships to other agencies.  There is huge variance, and any "one-size-fits-all" advice is absolutely going to be wrong for some agencies.

There are generally applicable guidelines that can be applied to commercial agencies, which are different from fashion print agencies, which are different from editorial fashion agencies, which are completely different from talent agencies which also do modeling.  And people don't understand that.

WG Rowland wrote:
Not knocking the concept of a "Killer Headshot".. But where does it apply?  Who should it be used to market to, and so on....

It applies to everyone.  I can't think of a single modeling category (except perhaps art nudes) where it doesn't apply.

The trouble is, what constitutes a "killer headshot" is different from one person (or one application, or one agency, or one type of modeling) to the next.  It's understanding those differences that are important for an aspiring model, or a photographer who wants to really be able to produce what a model needs.

Most of the people giving advice about these things honestly don't know how to assess a model's needs against the demands of the market and deliver in the right style.  And most Internet photographers shooting "model portfolios" don't either.  But since lack of knowledge is no bar to giving advice (or shooting "portfolios"), it's no surprise that so much wrong information is put out on the forums.

TXPhotog wrote:
Here's the problem:  people treat agencies as though they were generic, and whatever one or a few of them that someone has experienced, or read about, wants is the Laws Of The Industry.  We see it all the time.

And in addition to the posts you've made in this thread, we also have to deal with the phenomenon of industry outsiders, who heard or read snippets of information, studied ANTM closely, and build their own ideas on how the industry ought to be in their "common sense" opinion.

Or someone who is a local "big cheese" in a small town who hired two models from a local talent agency and uses that "experience" to give steadfast advise how the industry works and what is required.

People with real world experience in major national and international markets, such as yourself are often "ridiculed" for being... what do they always say?... hmmmmhmmm... oh, yeah: Narrow minded!

UdoR wrote:
People with real world experience in major national and international markets, such as yourself are often "ridiculed" for being... what do they always say?... hmmmmhmmm... oh, yeah: Narrow minded!

I've never heard anyone refer to TX as narrow minded. Dull, cretin, lethargic, stupid, moron, empty-headed, overbearing, overbearing, know it all, pathetic, sinister, ghoulish, monster, effete, coward, snob, mean, shallow, has been, could a been, should a been, imperious, did I say know it all, yeah, I got know it all. There were more but in the spirit of enforced cooperation I should limit what I've heard to a dull roar so as not to awaken the boss.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
Dull, cretin, lethargic, stupid, moron, empty-headed, overbearing, overbearing, know it all, pathetic, sinister, ghoulish, monster, effete, coward, snob, mean, shallow, has been, could a been, should a been, imperious, did I say know it all, yeah, I got know it all.

Bullshit!

Nobody has ever called me effete.

WG Rowland wrote:
Nope..

I think a discussion on release would be useful..

Professional release.
Test release.
TFP release.
Manual release (for the GWCs).. etc..

Please No..then the "Usual Suspects" will come through...

Have you seen some of the release discussions..man It feels like getting lost in the vortex..I have come to the conclusion that those are some of the most long winded topics on MM...

I hate case law now..really I do..

Or maybe we could  have a great release discussion..who knows...

Ok I will shut up now!

WG Rowland wrote:
Nope..

I think a discussion on release would be useful..

Professional release.
Test release.
TFP release.
Manual release (for the GWCs).. etc..

I really do want to know about this one.
I have not figured out the whole releace for art system yet at all.

So far I'm trying to get a full releace for everything unless it is only practice and I have no choice or it is a private client and discresion is what counts.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
Sooo who do I poison go get to be Bob's assistant around here???

I like WG a lot but he is in a higher position than BR right now????

There's a list:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=67881

Technically I started it, but that weasel Black Ricco slept his way straight to the top..

So.. Get in there..

Everyone wants a piece of Bob..

TXPhotog wrote:

Bullshit!

Nobody has ever called me effete.

Can we start now?

UdoR wrote:

And in addition to the posts you've made in this thread, we also have to deal with the phenomenon of industry outsiders, who heard or read snippets of information, studied ANTM closely, and build their own ideas on how the industry ought to be in their "common sense" opinion.

Or someone who is a local "big cheese" in a small town who hired two models from a local talent agency and uses that "experience" to give steadfast advise how the industry works and what is required.

People with real world experience in major national and international markets, such as yourself are often "ridiculed" for being... what do they always say?... hmmmmhmmm... oh, yeah: Narrow minded!

yup and their are a few on here I have met in person, what they say they do and what they really do don't quite match...

Even with those who work in "the industry" each persons job and way of doing things is diffrent.

WG Rowland wrote:
Everyone wants a piece of Bob..

I'm a human being you know, there's more to me than just Photoshop, I have feelings too.

Isys Entertainment wrote:
Bob you screwed up the page...lol

Because I'm such a genius!  Should be OK now.

UdoR wrote:

And in addition to the posts you've made in this thread, we also have to deal with the phenomenon of industry outsiders, who heard or read snippets of information, studied ANTM closely, and build their own ideas on how the industry ought to be in their "common sense" opinion.

Or someone who is a local "big cheese" in a small town who hired two models from a local talent agency and uses that "experience" to give steadfast advise how the industry works and what is required.

People with real world experience in major national and international markets, such as yourself are often "ridiculed" for being... what do they always say?... hmmmmhmmm... oh, yeah: Narrow minded!

Since MM has lots (probably most) of people in, working towards, aspiring to be in "the industry" i.e. making money off of photography in a commercial venue, and since there are a number of industry insiders like______  (fill in the blank with your faves)  why doesn't MM institute an "ask the pro" forum.  Where a group of pre=approved mods (a panel) can answer selected questions and give answer that aren't tainted by non-pros?  You can cover all the basic questions and have all the answers so that when newbies try and ask the question again you just send them to the "ask the pro" forum.


I think it would relieve a bit of the friction that arrives when non-pros say stuff wrong, and then pros react with irritation, rolling of eyes, and then the non-pro responds with animosity, and then a bitchfest happens.   Why not just draw lines in the sand an nip all of this in the bud....?

KM von Seidl wrote:

Since MM has lots (probably most) of people in, working towards, aspiring to be in "the industry" i.e. making money off of photography in a commercial venue, and since there are a number of industry insiders like______  (fill in the blank with your faves)  why doesn't MM institute an "ask the pro" forum.  Where a group of pre=approved mods (a panel) can answer selected questions and give answer that aren't tainted by non-pros?  You can cover all the basic questions and have all the answers so that when newbies try and ask the question again you just send them to the "ask the pro" forum.

That is an outstanding idea.

I will put it into the moderator forum for discussion!