Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
Why may I ask is it so wrong to place someones name here who
1) joined the site of their own free will
2) contacts people to work with them,either side of the camera.
3) Fails to act in a courteous manner(let alone pro like)
4) Takes images of someone and basicly steals them.
If MM Can't/Won't police this site,should we not?
All I hear are excuses and "we have heard it all before" so lets not deal with it. If this was an agency it would be out of bussiness in a week. Should we as the people most affected by it not demand better from those associated with the site? I am new here but not new to the industry at all. I did not come here to start trouble, only to find people who wish to make something of their talent.
Why not stop glossing over the issue while MM becomes the laughing stock of the industry and do something about it?
Hadyn Lassiter
HU/NU/CRU

It's a "he said, she said" thing Hadyn.  Unless MM is equipped to staff a board of arbitration, and force everyone that joins to agree to willingly submit to that arbitration process, it can't work. 

To be quite frank, if a model or another photographer unjustly ripped me on here and put my name up as doing something that I didn't actually do...well, I'd hire an attorney and run them throught the shredder for slander.  By avoiding the "naming names" issue, MM steers a wide circle around getting involved and being linked as a party to slander or defamation.

It sucks that this happens...no argument there.  It makes it much harder for those of us that get signed releases and follow through on our obligations, but it is one of the negative aspects to the industry.

Owens Imaging wrote:
Am I the only one that sees Jim Balls response.

I saw it and read it.. but I dont think he was refering to the OP.. and I dont think she was refering to him either...

so his first reply and his reply to someone else isnt anyway connected to the topic  of her not getting her images.

Secondly.. there are alot of replies here from people that havent even read the original poster's other posts.. yet they still ask her questions that she has already answered.

It is very unfortunate that the photographer she mentioned had read her emails and still not bothered to reply to her messages in the emails or even this thread.. but I am sure he will find that his reputation will eventually preceed him..

Star wrote:
I am currently ten girls behind, that is what next week is for.

Star

TEN Girls behinds???  WOW.. I cant even shoot ten behinds...

candace marie wrote:
There are like a million post just like this, this happens to most models i think. I have had this happen 4 times this year.. not getting pics on a tfp/cd shoot is very common. all you can do is move on and try agian next time.

I respect the MM rules, but would do my dammnest to let everyone know about this Photographer...err GWC.

AndrewG wrote:

I saw it and read it.. but I dont think he was refering to the OP.. and I dont think she was refering to him either...

so his first reply and his reply to someone else isnt anyway connected to the topic  of her not getting her images.

Secondly.. there are alot of replies here from people that havent even read the original poster's other posts.. yet they still ask her questions that she has already answered.

It is very unfortunate that the photographer she mentioned had read her emails and still not bothered to reply to her messages in the emails or even this thread.. but I am sure he will find that his reputation will eventually preceed him..

Ah, I see.  I hate when I read things wrong.  I agree though.  I think it is professional to respond.  Even if the response is:  My photos suck and I don't want them out in public.

Terri Renee wrote:
I agreed to do a TFCD shoot with this photographer from this site, he said he'd email me some pics later that week and then I'd get a CD of all the photos. That was two weeks ago and I've never heard from him again. He's using my pictures, but doesn't even answer my messages. I don't really CARE because his pictures suck anyway, they aren't lit for shit...but it pisses me off that he is dishonest. Are we supposed to report this stuff to protect other models from getting screwed?

He is a MORON for stiffing you. You are vavoooooom and no way I would do that!

Maybe his photos will trickle in.........maybe not. Live and learn

3 weeks ..ahh..maybe tied up. 3 months..different story.

Tim Baker wrote:
I know of one model who lists who she has shot with and she puts an * by the 'Highly Recommended' photographers, MUAs and other models she's worked with.  She puts a ;(  and says it means 'the obvious' - she leaves the others blank if they don't rate an * or ;(

Thought it was a clever way of conveying her message.

Ciao, Tim*

?? D f***

KM von Seidl wrote:
god forbid if someone is shooting film.

Noooo, not the "F" word!

Yeah, she'd be waiting longer than 2 weeks, that's for sure. I need to get my film camera out, and shoot some more chromes and b/w. I couldn't do that with TFP, though. My name could be raked through the mud.

VRG Photography wrote:
Wow, only 2 weeks? That's not a long time to wait for a CD. Some photographers will give you a CD on the spot (which may have been what the OP is used to), while others have/make the time to get them within a day or two.

....

I'll sometimes log on, read my messages, and wait for another day to respond. Not because I don't like the model, but it could be anything. I want to make sure whatever words I choose, they are chosen carefully.

Well, if you think two weeks isn't that long, don't promise images in one week.  And answer your email/messages within a reasonable time.  I agree that two weeks isn't long at all, but I still expect people to live up to their agreements.

Terri Renee wrote:
I agreed to do a TFCD shoot with this photographer from this site, he said he'd email me some pics later that week and then I'd get a CD of all the photos. That was two weeks ago and I've never heard from him again. He's using my pictures, but doesn't even answer my messages. I don't really CARE because his pictures suck anyway, they aren't lit for shit...but it pisses me off that he is dishonest. Are we supposed to report this stuff to protect other models from getting screwed?

theda wrote:

Well, if you think two weeks isn't that long, don't promise images in one week.  And answer your email/messages within a reasonable time.  I agree that two weeks isn't long at all, but I still expect people to live up to their agreements.

Oh, don't get it twisted, theda.

I don't "promise" images in under that two week period, it's just that the models sometimes forget, or are anxious to get the rest of the images after I send them a couple (I usually edit a couple of images within 24-48 hours after the shoot).

When I answer emails from models about photos, it's usually within a couple of days. Is that too long?

Terri Renee wrote:
I agreed to do a TFCD shoot with this photographer from this site, he said he'd email me some pics later that week and then I'd get a CD of all the photos. That was two weeks ago and I've never heard from him again. He's using my pictures, but doesn't even answer my messages. I don't really CARE because his pictures suck anyway, they aren't lit for shit...but it pisses me off that he is dishonest. Are we supposed to report this stuff to protect other models from getting screwed?

Did you sign a model release?  If not, he's using your images without your consent.  Sue him in conciliation court. If you signed one, did it mention anything about "consideration"??  It appears that you have not recieved "consideration" which may make the model release invalid. If so, Sue him in conciliation court. Do you even have a copy of the model release?  What's it say?

If you are having a problem with anyone, it's likely that you didn't handle things like  professional business-person would.  Models and photographers are both often guilty of not doing things in a businesslike manner.  If you are a model, you are in the modeling BUSINESS, run it like one and get agreements in writing.  You seem to have trusted someone and gotten screwed.  You conducted business based on trustand good faith.  Try that next time you get a mortgage loan. 

At least get and IOU signed by the photographer.  If I were a model, I'd come up with a form.  Hell, I'm a photographer and I have forms that spell out what I owe the model.  I do it mostly so I don't forget who I owe what to.  I'm old and forget.  If I were a model, I'd have some kind of paperwork spelling out what the photographer owes me, and when I should get it.  Then, if it doesn't happen, sue him in conciliation court.

VRG Photography wrote:
Oh, don't get it twisted, theda.

I don't "promise" images in under that two week period, it's just that the models sometimes forget, or are anxious to get the rest of the images after I send them a couple (I usually edit a couple of images within 24-48 hours after the shoot).

When I answer emails from models about photos, it's usually within a couple of days. Is that too long?

Good for you.  The photographer in question did promise images in a week and didn't answer emails and messages.

Carpe Imago Photography wrote:

It's a "he said, she said" thing Hadyn.  Unless MM is equipped to staff a board of arbitration, and force everyone that joins to agree to willingly submit to that arbitration process, it can't work. 

To be quite frank, if a model or another photographer unjustly ripped me on here and put my name up as doing something that I didn't actually do...well, I'd hire an attorney and run them throught the shredder for slander.  By avoiding the "naming names" issue, MM steers a wide circle around getting involved and being linked as a party to slander or defamation.

It sucks that this happens...no argument there.  It makes it much harder for those of us that get signed releases and follow through on our obligations, but it is one of the negative aspects to the industry.

A gentelmen and a Lady are only as good as their word.
You would be throwing your money away. You would lose and most likely a judge would not allow the suit to go through. If you failed to live up to your promise/word and the model bought in others with the same story about you it might get tight for you. Just do what you say you will do and its not a problem. People throw around the I will get a lawyer speech very quickley, getting one and getting one to take your case are two different things indeed.
Do what you say when you say you will and Its all good. And if you have ten TFCD's on back log perhaps it is time to stop and burn the CD's. Before going on to new adventures.
Just my thought on it.

Owens Imaging wrote:
I was going to say the same thing.  Maybe the photographer is not happy with his work.  Or, maybe he has a family emergency.  Or, maybe you're one of 20 people he needs to respond to.  However, if it were me and you were on the list of people to get back to and I read a blog stating how crappy my work was I'd probably put you behind the people I haven't shot with yet.  I'd be carefull bashing peoples work and names online.  It's never positive.

I shot with a model once for trade ...  I gave her a handful of lift tickets to a good ski resort and some cash for a shoot.  Then I sent a CD which was returned in the mail due to a bad address.  I haven't tried sending that CD back to her and still feel pretty bad about it.  But, sometimes things happen that are out of our control.

Edit:  My point there was ...  she probably thinks I'm a flake for not sending a CD.  In short, I tried and it just didn't work out.

KO

Good points, however if the model contacts, they should get a reply. (Unless the model has totally insulted the photographer.) If the photographer is using photos, then they must not be that bad.

I too had experiences with mailed items returned per bad addresses. I didn't receive it back for weeks or months. During that time, the models never contacted, so I saw no reason to persue it.  Keep an open mind, 2wks isn't that long. I have found from running photo events that (most times) assumptions made by attending photographers and models are wrong. They jumped to conclusions and told many people about it. That didn't help anyone.

Mark Richards wrote:
I tell models not to do tfcd, but if they do, make the photographer sign a contract to lock them into getting you your pics by a certain time, and the CD. If they don't want to sign it, then don't work with them.  Most models have to drive to the shoot, sometimes in other cities.  They work their schedules around to make the shoot.  They are half of the shoot, and therefore should have their rights protected on the shoot as well if you are doing it for no pay.

I wouldn't sign it.  I've got a reputation that stands on it's own.  Rather than sign a silly contract (if I fail to deliver...then what?  sue me?  what are the damages?) I'd ask the model to contact people I have worked with.  Do some research on me.  If they still don't trust me, they can work with someone else.

Owens Imaging wrote:

Ah, I see.  I hate when I read things wrong.  I agree though.  I think it is professional to respond.  Even if the response is:  My photos suck and I don't want them out in public.

Sorry for the confusion there....

I made my post to reinforce Theda's point that there are always two sides to every debate, and also to show that sometimes it is not the photographer's fault that the model does not get her images.

theda wrote:

Good for you.  The photographer in question did promise images in a week and didn't answer emails and messages.

My apologies, theda.

I thought you were talking specifically to me.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Let's step back for a moment.

Is a time-release release even enforceable for non-commerical use? Doesn't the photographer (for lack of a better word) own the image &/or rights to it after they press the shutter?

But regardless of that answer, let's look at the flipside of that. The photographer is the one that carries the expertise, the equipment, probably pays for the studio, probably spends gas money getting their to, spends god knows how many hours sifting through the shoot & then editing the images. So the way I'm looking at it, each side is paying something in the hopes of getting something.

Yes, her situation does suck. Yes, its not right what the photographer has done.

But we're only hearing one side of the story. He may very well have emailed the images & have it bounced. I've certainly had that happen on a number of occasions, only to find out when I've seen the person on AIM.

Lets get this straight.  Without the model the photographer is shooting air.  And if he promises her a CD of the images shot in exchange for her time, then he better deliver.  He can have all the expertise, equipment, etc, but without the model that he is promising an exchange with for her time, then he is shooting nothing.