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Advice Needed: Potential Model is Under 18
Hello All, As one of the photographers that is in the Amateur Catagory, I have a question on the rules on shooting someone under 18. Here is the situation, I was approached by a mother that is representing her daughter that is a model. Her daughter is under 18 and the mother says that she will sign a model release form for her daughter. Now the problem that I am seeing is that I dont know ho to shoot her daughter. I am not trying to go to jail for a bra strap showing in a picture. With all of the clothing that we have gone through her abs are showing. Some of the skirts that we have gone through are short. The daughter is keeping up with fashion of a 16 year old. I am very confused on what I can shoot her in especially since the mother has given consent and the mother is working on these shoots with me. I want to make sure that I cover myself. What information is out there for me to research to make sure of what I can or cant shoot and how? I have looked all over the net to find out more info and I am not finding much. So I bring this to the forum. Should I just pass on shooting for this young lady and her mother? Since I have the moms consent and she is working with me picking out the clothes, am I safe. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Apr 26 05 10:32 am Link What I think is that you should do something that is cute! Maybe just a cute skirt and shirt or let her bring her own clothes and make her mom make sure they fit her properly. You just really need to make sure that the girl is comfortable in what she is doing and what she is wearing and you will be ok. -Sinnamon Love Apr 26 05 10:39 am Link I am watching this one, I need to know this also. As our resident underage prodigy, Christie #676, has proven you can shoot some pretty sexy stuff with an underage model but where is the fine line and who decides it? As an amatuer photographer I am on pins and needles on this one, I have several underage girls in my area that want me to shoot them but I have turned them down over and over because I am to scared to try. Apr 26 05 10:40 am Link Don't stress out over it! Unless you live in a country with a Muslim society, there are no rules about clothes and how to wear 'em. If you are in the USA, what you may not know is that it is actually LEGAL to photograph minors nude if you have consent AND it is NOT sexual or pornographic in nature. Bra showing, short skirts, and even implied nude are NOT illegal or going to get you in trouble. Relax and enjoy being a photographer! If you are uptight and uncomfortable, it could show and cause the young lady to not be comfortable either. So as long as the Mom and the model are comfortable with you ... don't worry! Apr 26 05 10:44 am Link When I'm in this position I strictly enforce that a parent or parent approved chaperone is present at the shoot. I may also have a female assistant for the shoot. I also won't shoot a minor doing sheer, unless there is a bra or swimwear top underneath, nor to do implied.. There's no reason she can't be provacative and sexy, hell I've had a 16yo unzip her pants slightly so you could see a little of her panties, but mom was right there and neither had an issue.. The key is to keep thing in the comfort of both the model and the parent/chaperone.. Afterall, look at Abercrombie and Fitch.. As Patrick Walberg said, relax and enjoy making the images. As long as you're professional and don't over step the comfort zone, it's all good!! Hell, look at how most 15-17yo are dressed walking around the mall.. They sure didn't look like that when I was that age!!! Apr 26 05 10:51 am Link I agree with Keith. Also, you can always ask permission to have the whole shoot videotaped so your covered. But you don't necessarily have to go that far either. That is just one of the other options that you have. If you look in the forums on "Model Releases", we are working on releases, and one of them that I am going to be working on is a Minor Release. I hope that once it is posted, it could come in handy for some photographers. McKenzie Apr 26 05 10:55 am Link Posted by Alexander Allen: I don't want to be the one to throw cold water on the situation BUT ... why in the world would you ever want to do anyting you don't feel comfortable about? I presume you have some level of discomfort about the situation or you wouldn't be asking. I wouldn't feel safe even with mom as a consultant ... if you want to find out how some parents operate, follow the Michael Jackson case (a pox on ALL their houses and Neverland Raunches). Apr 26 05 11:03 am Link First off, Thank you guys for posting. I will (I hope) not unconfortable shooting the Mom's daughter. I am just making sure that before I do that I don't jump into an area that I shouldn't. I agree that some of the clothing that alot of these girls are wearing is pretty risque. I just wanted to get a second opinion before I started shooting. I didn't know if you could take a picture of a model that is under 18 and still have the image be considered sexy. Having it sexy and not going into an area where people think that its porn. Thanks for all your responses. And the idea of video taping the shoot isn't a bad idea. Apr 26 05 11:05 am Link Posted by Joe Kozlowski: Posted by Alexander Allen: I don't want to be the one to throw cold water on the situation BUT ... why in the world would you ever want to do anyting you don't feel comfortable about? I presume you have some level of discomfort about the istuation or you wouldn't be asking. I wouldn't feel safe even with mom as a consultant ... if you want to find out how some parents operate, follow the Michael Jackson case (a pox on ALL their houses and Neverland Raunches). Good One too Joe!!! I agree on that point too, it is like instinct...at least, I know if I have a weird feeling about something or working with someone, I won't do it...because I am following my gut feeling! Apr 26 05 11:06 am Link Alexander, you seem like a very consciences person. It shows that you care about the models and people you work with just because you asked. Do ask questions and verify a models comfort zone as you would if she was an adult age. You will have a parent (Mom) there to help you too! It's the guys who are do something stupid like breaking the rules of proper conduct that get into trouble shooting with underage girls. Apr 26 05 11:06 am Link Posted by Joe Kozlowski: It situations like the Jakco case is the reason I bring this up. Nowadays people can twist things so quickly. Apr 26 05 11:08 am Link Personally, I'd pass on this one. If you choose to do it, create a release for the mother to sign in which she specifically states that she approved both the wardrobe and the poses. Have her signature witnessed. Apr 26 05 11:17 am Link Just let the mom and her daughter pick out what they want her to model. Then have the mom stay at the shoot and supervise what she thinks are "age appropriate poses" for the shoot. You don't direct - you shoot and collect the money. Let mom tell her how to pose. Don't think about the girl portraying a sexy image to sell herself... think "how can I sell this outfit?" Keep the image and audience thoughts clean, simple and straight forward. Get your release form signed BEFORE shooting. Technically - "Mom" has final say either way. Here's a cute quote for the situation, "If mom ain't happy... ain't nobody happy." Apr 26 05 11:21 am Link Posted by Alexander Allen: Posted by Joe Kozlowski: It situations like the Jakco case is the reason I bring this up. Nowadays people can twist things so quickly. Even if she's paying you handsomly, some deals just aren't worth having. From all that you've said and from your obvious concern they're not the ones at risk ... you are. Apr 26 05 11:22 am Link If I may, I would like to interject in this conversation. I am Stephanie's mother and as a 16 year old model I attend to EVERY photo shoot, casting calls or shows. Stephanie shoots in clothes that SHE feels comfortable with. I, or Stephanie, would only disagree to a shoot if she is asked to do nude (which she hasn't). I feel that if Stephanie feels comfortable shooting with a bathingsuit or any other type of clothing that may reveal her body then is fine by me. As long it's NOT of a pornographic nature. There will be times that she has a blouse that shows her bra and that is fine. In some of her fashion shows there has been designs where she couldn't wear a bra or even underwear. But as long as body parts are not showing it's okay by us. I've always sign a release form and read it thoroughly. If in doubt, I ask to understand the agreement. There must be an understanding between photographer and model but in this case a parent is also involved. My suggestion would be to have the model/parent tell the photographer the type of clothing she (the model) will be taking to the photoshoot. IF the photographer feels at any time uncomfortable about any of the items then he/she (photographer) should say so. Great photos will only be produced if the model and photographer are comfortable with each other and the work they are doing. Just my humble opinion! Mrs. Rodriguez Apr 26 05 11:50 am Link Posted by Alexander Allen: I have shot two or three underage models up to this point, and I wish I'd had a forum when I first started to ask for help like this. Though I did have the benefit of having worked with teenagers in the past in other areas of my professional life. Apr 26 05 11:54 am Link Well, untill you know any better, with an underage model I would not go any farther than swimwear. Lingerie is definitely out till you know them better. As long as you have parental consent, and a signed model release (preferably witnessed AND signed) I don't see too much trouble for you. Make sure the mother is PRESENT at the shoot to get permission and verification of her permission for any poses you are not sure of. The best advice I can give you is this: If the shot doesn't feel right to you, DO NOT click the shutter ! ! Mark Edwards I agree Mr. Edwards!! Apr 26 05 11:58 am Link If a model is under 18 than take pictures of her being say 16. I think long as you do not sell the sex look, it should be fine. i think it is more face and eyes as well. Make her smile and be full of life, not looking sexy into the camera. No boobs showing at all, and any dresses should be an ince above the knee. To me that is safe. Catalog teenage suff. Apr 26 05 11:58 am Link Hi All Again I think that the point that I was trying to make was not clear. The whole thing is that I have never shot a person that was underage. I am very happy that the mother is taking such an interest in the shooting proccess. I am just ask for peoples advice on shooting someone that is underage. I have seen situations where photographers have gotten in trouble for how they have shot someone under 18. I dont want to want to fall into that catagory. I am fine with doing this shoot. I just want to get any words of wisdom that other photographers can pass. ( and so far I am getting alot of it and I thank you all) I would not take this shoot if i really felt that uncomfortable. When ever I shoot anyone I always make sure of that persons comfort levels. So making sure of the models and her mothers comfort levels are met. I was just asking for any rules to live by when shooting an underage model. Thank you all for your words of wisdom! Apr 26 05 12:00 pm Link A little from real life! I was shooting two sisters, one is 14, the other one was 17 (turned 18 this month). Both girls were very well developed and even the young one had the bubble butt of a grown woman. The older one, was quite tall and you thought she was 25. Now, at the shoot, I had the make up artist (female) and both parents of the girls attending. I was shooting first the entire series with the older girl, was for her portfolio, since she is entering the modeling arena. Was nothing suggestive... but I had to remember that she was 17 and she is going to be a stunner even more as she gets older. Actually the mother was a little bit interrupting, because she was so proud of her grown daughter (she saw her first time as a woman I think) that she was constantly giggling... LMAO... really! I actually told her with a smile that if she doesn't behave, she [mother] has to leave the room... Then it was time to select the outfits for the youngest daughter... so, the kid is wearing a thong while the make up is being applied and she shows me that lace panties... see through and very short... so... I am looking at her and say if I am shooting you in this outfit... I need triple and quadruple model release from your mom... and if her mom knows about this. She said yes, and I went to the parents and asked if they know about that lingerie... and both said yeah and that it is okay. I must tell you... if you don't check the girls ID, you would think that there is a woman in here early 20's (well... just from behind). But it JUST DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT, I actually felt so uncomfortable that I refused to shoot her in ANYTHING suggestive or erotic and I explained that to them... So, the girl ended up wearing some cute tops etc and jeans and other "girlie" stuff... and was doing some really cute and funny poses for the camera... and we had a lot of fun doing that. I am a very open person, who actually started to be sexually active in my early teens etc... but there is a definite no-no for shoots like that. So, you have to have not only the legal disclaimer, parental consent... but when you shoot... you should have her parents with you... very important. For topics, I can't really suggest, because I need to see the girl to have ideas. But, as someone else suggested... do some girlie stuff... do some outside in front of a ice cream parlor, change outfits etc. Young people can be very fun to shoot! Just make sure that those shots can not be interpreted as pornographic (coastal standard, not midwest! LOL). and you'll be fine. Apr 26 05 12:31 pm Link Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: Haha... read MY experience... and see what mother and daughter (14) picked for the daughter... Apr 26 05 12:33 pm Link I'd recommend meeting with both the model and guardian prior to the shoot. Go ever the types of images and show them a copy of the release form. This way you have all your bases covered. I never shoot anyone under 18 without at least my female MUA at the shoot, just in case. It's sad that we have to go to these lengths to protect ourselves against false accusations or legal issues but I guess that's where I society wants to be. Best of luck! Rich Apr 26 05 12:48 pm Link Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: Haha... read MY experience... and see what mother and daughter (14) picked for the daughter... Well... they picked it... not you... therefore the responsibility has been shifted to them not you. Apr 26 05 02:17 pm Link Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: Haha... read MY experience... and see what mother and daughter (14) picked for the daughter... Well... they picked it... not you... therefore the responsibility has been shifted to them not you. That is true. Still... I don't know, if she would have been older, like her sister, I rather NOT photograph a 14 year old girl in lingerie, no matter how mature her body is and no matter how mother and daughter "getting a kick out of it". Apr 26 05 02:44 pm Link Alex, my take on it is that if you stay away from lingerie, implied nudity and g-string or thong swimwear, you're pretty much in the clear. Just make suyre the clothes that are brought to the table are brought by the parent and that the parent stays as the chaperone for the entire shoot. Also, if you're shooting digital, list the file names on the release, have the parent initial them and have the parent go through with you on the memory card to delete anything they may deem inappropriate. Notate each deletion on the relese and initial. Maybe I'm paranoid, but they're still out to get ya!!! If you're shooting slide, have the parent meet with you when you pick up the film and bvring your handy dandy hole punch to kill anything they want killed. Eh , my 2 paranoid cents worth. Apr 26 05 03:09 pm Link As an amatuer, I suggest you avoid any shots in which an underaged model's undergarments are visible. Do not shoot anything even remotely sexual. Even if the mom is fine with it now, she could chnage her mind, she may have a dad who is not so okay with it. As has already been said, the mother should be on set the entire time and she's the one who'll be signing the release. Apr 26 05 03:56 pm Link There is a smoking hot under 18 model that has said she'd work with me, but I've decided that I will NOT shoot anyone under 18, period. It has nothing to do with me - it has to do with parents of the model and what they may or may not say later on. Not worth the risk to me. Apr 26 05 05:45 pm Link For a long time, I only felt comfortable shooting my own children, their cousins and neighborhood chums. I was in a similar situation as you. Approached by guardians and the minors themselves to have me shoot them. Nothing but red flags coming out of my head. A few months ago, I decided to cave in and I shot with a 10-year-old girl accompanied by her Aunt (also a model and on my MM friend's list). There was no set plan except for the location. As for her attire, both Aunt and model showed me the different outfits and I said, "let's try that one, or how about that one?". As for her posing, it was easy to direct her and often she came up with poses of her own. Heck, even my dog got into a couple of her shots. A studio photo of her is on my MM port. Her name is Nadya. She's wearing casual clothing and in a fashion pose. She did great and I did great and I couldn't believe I was worrying too much about nothing (liability) in the first place. Apr 26 05 05:54 pm Link As a teen model my perspective is this: My mom is at every shoot with me first of all. I think all teens should have a parent or guardian with them on the shoots. Its safer for you the photographer and for the model. I will bring alot of outfits and let the photographer pick out what he/she wants me to wear. If I have to sit down in a short skirt, I fix it and ask the photographer to make sure nothing is showing. My mom checks too. I have never felt uncomfortable with a photographer nor do I think they have felt that way with me. We just have a great time and I learn so much. I truly have to say that because the photographers took a chance on shooting with me, it has helped me in so many ways and given me more opportunities then I could ever imagine. The point of letting the photographer pick out what I am to wear is it gives you, the photographer, the right to pick out what you are comfortable shooting me in. The model release forms I sign have a space by them that my mom signs too. Here is something you may want to consider: If its ok for a model to say, "No I dont feel comfortable wearing that outfit or doing that pose", it should be ok for you to say the same thing.."No I dont feel comfortable shooting you in that way or with those outfits.Just my two cents:) XoXo Tiffany Apr 26 05 06:47 pm Link Posted by Patrick Walberg: Dude, I would be careful with that one. Without going into whether or not it is legal [I have my serious doubts], what about the over-zealous, politically ambitious deputy prosecutor in your jurisdiction? Even if you are not convicted after all the court wrangling, you don't get your attorneys' fees back, or your time, or your reputation. Consider the risk/reward ratio. Apr 30 05 09:16 am Link This question seems to come up online often. Usually "photographers" advise, "Don't shoot with anyone under 18." That's great for amateurs and the weekend warrior. In the professional industry, models come in all ages, sizes, colors, and sexes. One day your client may have you shooting 18 year olds, and the next twin's who are both 5. Consider the portrait studio at your local mall, or the guy who shoots little league or school pictures. Why aren't these shooters worried? Shoot age appropriate. You know what that is and certainly don't need to ask other's to advise you. Common sense and professionalism should come first before the purchase of a camera. If you're concerned you may shoot something you should not - then you probably will. Stick to shooting models over 18 and let the younger models work with someone else. There's some "advice" being posted in another thread here on the forum indicating that kids/teens should have their parents wait outside in the car. This is one of the indicators models parents should use to know what to avoid. Anybody under 18 should have parent or legal guardian present regardless of who the photographer is or what their skill level / reputation. Once these concepts are understood, then you can check that "PROFESSIONAL" box in the online portfolio you are listed with. Apr 30 05 02:14 pm Link Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: Good advice. I follow this rule when I shoot underage girls. Mom is involved 150% and she makes the decisions along wtih her daughter. and I don't go anywhere near sheer or implied nudity. it's not worth the risk, even with Mom's consent. Apr 30 05 05:07 pm Link My suggestion is go look at GOOD portfolios of under 18 models to get an idea on what most like. This isn't a big worry, just think about getting good photographs of a person. If you're an amature, I think this is a good experience for you then. You should be happy for the opportunity to expand your work because you never know if this is actually an area of photography that you would be interested in going into. Check out this model's portfolio: http://www.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?ID=32371 Danielle is wonderful, high spirited and all around a great model/actress. Just go with the flow of the shoot and have fun.  Heather Apr 30 05 05:28 pm Link Posted by Herb Way: One of the photographers pointed out that it is not illegal to photograph someone under the age of 18 nude as long as the images are not sexual or pornographic. I am not a laywer but this is my understanding as well. Legally you may, but your personal ethics also comes into play. You would also risk repurcussions many do not consider when making the decision. Apr 30 05 05:47 pm Link Ask her mother what she is looking for specifically. Stick with casual and fashion. You might get away with some glam or swimsuit stuff and stay away from any sexual stuff. Like I said, ask the mom, she knows what's best and don't forget to have her sign the release form. Apr 30 05 06:41 pm Link shoting with minors is no different than shooting an adult just make sure you don't get any butty shoots or lots of cleavage shoots. Young girls like that try to get away with lots of stuff even if thier mom is there. So be careful and just shoot wth you feel is apropreiate.Make sure that if she wears a short skit no panties are showing no bend orver shoots. Hey just be logical and think If this was my daughter would I want to take this kind of picture. Bravo Magic Image Photography Apr 30 05 06:48 pm Link Posted by Clint: Posted by Patrick Walberg: Dude, I would be careful with that one. Without going into whether or not it is legal [I have my serious doubts], what about the over-zealous, politically ambitious deputy prosecutor in your jurisdiction? Even if you are not convicted after all the court wrangling, you don't get your attorneys' fees back, or your time, or your reputation. Consider the risk/reward ratio. Yeah, I'd be super careful with that one too. My studio partner is a lawyer (I'm in Canada), and he says "bullshit" to that point. He won't venture an opinion on what is legal in the USA. But if you're taking nudes of any 15 yr old girl in your studio, even if they're artistic nudes, as a parent I would be concerned enough to talk to the local cops. Apr 30 05 07:30 pm Link It is abosultely legal to photograph minors in the US nude provided you have parental consent and there is no sexual content of any kind in the shots. I'd be very surprised if this weren't really the case in Canada as well. However, since we've had parents arrested for taking pictures of their infants in the bath because an overzealous photolab lackey reported them, it seems everything is sexual to some people. Apr 30 05 07:35 pm Link Posted by theda: Well, my lawyer friend and studio partner says different. And I"m not going to argue that point with a lawyer, ok? If you want to, I can put you in contact with him. May 01 05 12:13 am Link Posted by theda: There are books of nudes of teens for sale in most of the mainstream bookstores in the United States. Ever hear of David Hamilton or Jock Sturges? Well it is true that nudity in itself is not obscene or pornographic unless there are other elements involved. The FBI raided Sturges place in San Francisco but never charged him with anything. May 01 05 02:53 am Link |
