Photos By Deej wrote:
Everyone,
Thanks for all your support in this matter.  I won't name names out of respect and there was a thread chastizing (sp?) photographers for naming names.  I did email him and this was the response I got.   Please keep in mind that I was not  threatening as his message may lead you to believe.  I never said I was holding the photos for ransom.  I asked him to call me so we could discuss the matter and when he did he just set up the follow-up shoot or set me up. lol  He never expressed the feelings mentioned below.  I would like to hear model's opinion.  Does he have valid reasons? he never told them until now that he has the pics.  Just a side note, the fighting mentioned is not physical it's verbal regarding a parking space that I was holding for him and his gf to park their car which someone wanted to take.  the family threatened to call the police on me. Here's his reply:

Lesson learned.
Never threaten a model by telling then that you will not give them their photos if they don’t shoot with you again, that makes you sound desperate and is very unprofessional. I worked hard for those photos and deserve to use them just as much as you do so when you told me you would not give them to me I was very upset. Remember you were the one that pursued me to shoot with you in the first place so treat me with respect.
If you act professional and the photos come out good a model will shoot with you again. On our shoot you did not act professional by fighting with that family but the photos did come out good so I may have considered shooting with you again when I had more time, you knew I was busy. Then you tell me you holding my photos ransom until I shoot with you again. What did you think that would accomplish? All you did was piss me off.
Either start acting more professional, because you’re a good photographer, or stay away from people. You lucky I’m a nice guy because doing what you did will probably get you beat up next time.

This is real easy, bud.

Send him an e-mail and tell him the work belongs to you and that he has stolen it.  Tell him that if he posts a single picture, the next communication he will get is from a lawyer.  And add that you know alot of local photographers and will pass the word on to them about him so that they need not waste their time with him.

David

David

Photos By Deej wrote:
"You lucky I’m a nice guy because doing what you did will probably get you beat up next time."

Poor grammar and threats of violence. This guy sounds real professional...

~Keeper

Josie Nutter wrote:
Well, if you don't want to go through the hassle of reporting the theft... if it were me, I would definitely let the other local photographers know what had gone down.  They'll spread the word for you even farther, probably.  People in this line of work/hobby/etc seem to love gossip, heh.

Great idea!!

Anjel Britt wrote:
I take direction - when he says come  down off that ledge now, or  turn this way, or give me angry / lets do the other outfit now - or whatever - that's what I do.
Time management YES that's the photograhers job.
He is under no obligation to shoot again he clearly felt to busy / didnt like you
Yup, maybe his loss, but his decison to make.
He got his stuff back sneaky and mean
What a shame and how crappy to lie
BUT remember, he felt under pressure, didn't feel comfortable with you / didn't trust you...
It sucks
It happens
You didn't pick up on it.
At least you have ideas and can do them with another model

You can also complain if he uses the pics as he didnt keep his side of the bargin as you see it. But that's all he did - until he
a) threatened you BOY that was the worst!...
b) failed to honestly communicate (would he have got the shots if he had? )
c) he failed to shoot a second time - stuck to his inital premis that he was too busy.

Good luck with the next one!

Ok, time management.  Let me tell you about that.  A photographer is at the whim of a model.  You just can't say time management and be done with.   This particular model gave me a window period with which to shoot.  One, he was 45mins late to the shoot b/c he had to wait for his gf to bring her to the shoot.  Then he during every change we had to get his gf's approval on hair & wardrobe.  His gf constantly interrupted the shoot with her own direction.  We had a hard time finding parking at one location.  The when I found a parking space for the model, he didn't even take it which meant we had to drive around looking for more parking.  I finally found a space for him to park and got out of my car to hold it for him to make sure that he takes when all of a suddden another family in a car decides they don't want to wait for a space they were waiting for and take the one I'm holding, threaten to call the police on me for holding the space and then the model asks me to apologize to the people in the car when they were the ones who initially got loud, threatening and in my face over space that we wouldn't have even had to deal with the drama if the model had taken the first parking space I showed him.  Then the model was slow during the shoot and didn't take direction well.  Had I just stopped and moved on to the next thing to manage time better, I wouldn't have gotten the good shots that I did, let alone complete the shots he wanted.  I always put the model first and try capture their wanted images first so they don't complain later that they didn't get the shots they wanted.  Yet, it's my fault I didn't manage my time.  You can't predict how fast or good a model is going to be.  The model had a nerve to call me unprofessional for arguing with the family for saving HIM a parking space.  That's the thanks I get.  Funny, how my unprofessionalism had nothing to do with him personally. 

Also, I signed a model releasse saying that he could sell the images I took of him but that I only have usage restricted to non-commercial use.  No selling his images.  His release says that he will contact the photographer and arrange an agreed upon fee for the photographer.  Now, after this incident, do you really think he is going to contact me.  He's not even professional enough to be honest with me about his true feelings.  You asked would he have gotten his shots had he communicated honestly with me.  Yes, he would have.  What are you implying that I'm so unprofessional that him telling me he didn't "felt under pressure, didn't feel comfortable with you / didn't trust you..." would have made me not give him the pics?  That's not my style.  I sent him and email and will tell you that I have NEVER not given a model the pics back from a photoshoot.  All the times I've been burned by a model is when the model lied to me about their true feelings.  It's funny the models that lie are the very ones that have a problem with honesty and trust.  Why is that?  The first thing I said to the model when I stated that that I couldn't give him the photoCD until the 2nd part of the shoot was completed was to call me and let's discuss this.  Had he done that and revealed how he really felt then like I told him I simply would have said I understand your feeling and even though I prefer it the other way, I will give you your pics now so that you don't feel taken advantange of.  Just like when he showed me his agreeement to sign, I wouldn't have signed it and then later said you are a dick I'm gonna sell your pics anyway b/c I didn't like the agreement.  Does anyone see how misleading that is?  He called me and scheduled the followup shoot w/no discussion.  Never, have I had bad model relations with anyone who has been honest & up front with me.

Answer me this, why is it that a lot of models don't take photographers seriously.  You don't go to Target and say oh, you charge to much or get a job their and say I'll take my pay now and finish the work later.  It's ok for a model to not trust the photographer yet the reverse is not ok.  I send all my potential models a list of things to know and expect at the shoot yet 90% of the models I work with are not prepared or agree to everything on the list then have a problem with it on shoot day.  Not only is that frustrating to the photogrpaher, it's unprofessional.  You don't agree to work at McDonalds flipping burgers and then get to work the first day and say I have a problem flipping burgers.  I say cut your nails then at the shoot I have to ask the model to cut their nails.  I told this model don't wear any underwear when you put on the boardshorts.  Guess what, he agreed not put on the underwear and then went and put on the boardshorts with underwear w/out telling me.  Did he think I was not gonna notice?  it ruined some of the shots b/c I had to either ask him to push the underwear down b/c they were showing which takes up extra time to do or they were showing and ruined some of the shots I took.  this in essence ruins the quality of the work and the management of time.  If I have to stop and ask him to push his underwear down when I could have been on to the next outfit is not my fault.  I could go on but I hope you get the message.  I can't do anymore then be open, upfront & honest with the model.  If the model doesn't give back the same, then yes it's gonna cause problems during the shoot.  Yes, I have made mistakes but I learn from it and prepare better with the next model.  You also have to remember I'm trying to make a good impression on the model to.  Me not getting the shots I wanted and was me showing the model, he I'm putting your wants ahead of my own.  It obviously doesn't mean jack----.

Richard Tallent wrote:
Ok, after reading both, I'm going to have to side with the *model* on this one.

Now, obviously the OP's intention was to split the first shoot between the model's needs and his own. Fair enough, I've made similar arrangements at times.

Time got away from them and the photographer never got to try his ideas. Sucks, and a make-up shoot to continue would have been the best solution for the photographer.

But what I see here are two issues the photographer should take to heart:

1. As the photographer, you arre responsible for time management, not the model. You agreed to shoot his stuff first, so you took the risk that you could split the time fairly for both parties. TFCD has no guarantees for either party, so he is under no obligation to shoot more with you just because you didn't get the shots you wanted. Next time, make sure you get what you need first--shoots come to abrupt halts all the time due to weather, phone calls, emergencies, bad escorts, etc., so don't put your time at risk.

2. Also as the photographer, it seems there was a failure to communicate. Reading the model's email, it's obvious he did not grok this idea that you were looking for specific shots, that everything else was throwaway to you and only useful to him. Yes, some people are dense or just forgetful, I had a model email me the other day asking when she was getting her prints from a TFCD shoot (she forgot and thought it was TFP). I was able to refer her to the contract that we went over at the shoot and earlier emails just so she didn't think I was trying to bamboozle her.

Not trying to sound harsh, and I've been having an "Internet models suck" month myself (two flakes in a row, the most recent being someone I've shot with before). Just thought there should be some balance here.

It's up to the photographer to both clearly plan and execute the shoot. The model tricked you, but only because he felt he was getting screwed. Doesn't excuse his action, but you agreed to shoot once and deliver pictures, nothing else was in writing or even verbally clear enough to sink in.

I see where you're coming from.

The guy's still a thief, though.

Star wrote:
I have amodel right now contacting me two three times a day, she knows I am in finals. The funny thing is she would have had her images a week ago but now everytime I think about her I get really irritated and have trouble looking at her face,

Star

Photos By Deej wrote:
Answer me this, why is it that a lot of models don't take photographers seriously.

Because he doesn't *have* to take you seriously, apparently.

1. If a model tries to show up 45 minutes late, I won't be there.
2. I would not allow a male model over 18 to bring an escort.
3. If an escort holds up the shoot, they get a warning, then the shoot is over.
4. I don't shoot when wardrobe is obviously wrong.
5. TFCD is best when you're both agreed on the same concept, not when you have completely different visions.
6. When agreeing to do extra unpaid shots, they should come at the end of the shoot.
7. You gave up commercial rights entirely to him and kept none yourself?! Sounds like you were BEGGING to shoot him rather than finding models who appreciate your work.

I'm not really trying to rag on you here. The model did a crappy thing keeping the CD, but you are complaining about all the things you "had no control over" when you were the one holding the fancy black thingie with the clicky-button.

You don't have to be a Chef Ramsey to be in control of the shoot. There is definitely a way to take charge of a shoot and set out some clear guidelines to ensure that you both get the most out of the shoot without losing the friendliness and fun factor.

Richard Tallent wrote:

Because he doesn't *have* to take you seriously, apparently.

1. If a model tries to show up 45 minutes late, I won't be there.
2. I would not allow a male model over 18 to bring an escort.
3. If an escort holds up the shoot, they get a warning, then the shoot is over.
4. I don't shoot when wardrobe is obviously wrong.
5. TFCD is best when you're both agreed on the same concept, not when you have completely different visions.
6. When agreeing to do extra unpaid shots, they should come at the end of the shoot.
7. You gave up commercial rights entirely to him and kept none yourself?! Sounds like you were BEGGING to shoot him rather than finding models who appreciate your work.

I'm not really trying to rag on you here. The model did a crappy thing keeping the CD, but you are complaining about all the things you "had no control over" when you were the one holding the fancy black thingie with the clicky-button.

You don't have to be a Chef Ramsey to be in control of the shoot. There is definitely a way to take charge of a shoot and set out some clear guidelines to ensure that you both get the most out of the shoot without losing the friendliness and fun factor.

Gotta agree in large measure with this.

You both sound like you're carrying on like children. The term "professional conduct" not particularly applicable here. I understand the gripes, not the code of conduct.

However, nothing excuses the model for making off the CD in the manner he did. Absolutely nothing. He's not a "nice guy" and certainly no gentleman whatever personal delusions he's entertaining. No mitigating circumstances whatsoever, if the OP represented the events accurately.

Cecil Sharps wrote:
This looks like a job for the spanish inquistion

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!

deej wrote:
Also, I signed a model releasse saying that he could sell the images I took of him . . . .

Why?

First, that is not what models releases are for.  Putting that kind of thing into the release opens you up to exactly this kind of problem.  Use a release that is a release only.  If you want to give him some rights in writing, do it on a separate piece of paper, and do it at the appropriate time.

Second, since you gave him that "release", he can argue that the pictures were his, and the rights that go with them (as stated on the release).  No theft occurred - you said in writing that he was entitled to the pictures and to use them.

Miles Chauvin wrote:
Call the police. It's stolen property. Don't hesitate.

The police will laugh if you do.  Based upon the long post that Deej left he clearly states that a release was signed that gave the model the right to sell the images.  The police will tell him not to enter into this type of deal again if he doesn't like the results.

Deej, I feel for you.  I really do.  But there is so much that went wrong in this scenario that I'd walk away knowing that you're a little bit smarter.  Share this guy's name with other local photgs as a "heads up" and drop it.  It sucks, but it's life.  Also, rein in the release a bit, professional models won't expect all of the bells and whistles that you've got...only the amateurs (like this guy) will.  Write a tight release to dissuade the hacks, and then feel free to go above and beyond on your generosity (after the shoot) for those models that bust thier butt.

Photos By Deej wrote:
Everyone,
Thanks for all your support in this matter.  I won't name names out of respect and there was a thread chastizing (sp?) photographers for naming names.  I did email him and this was the response I got.   Please keep in mind that I was not  threatening as his message may lead you to believe.  I never said I was holding the photos for ransom.  I asked him to call me so we could discuss the matter and when he did he just set up the follow-up shoot or set me up. lol  He never expressed the feelings mentioned below.  I would like to hear model's opinion.  Does he have valid reasons? he never told them until now that he has the pics.  Just a side note, the fighting mentioned is not physical it's verbal regarding a parking space that I was holding for him and his gf to park their car which someone wanted to take.  the family threatened to call the police on me. Here's his reply:

Lesson learned.
Never threaten a model by telling then that you will not give them their photos if they don’t shoot with you again, that makes you sound desperate and is very unprofessional. I worked hard for those photos and deserve to use them just as much as you do so when you told me you would not give them to me I was very upset. Remember you were the one that pursued me to shoot with you in the first place so treat me with respect.
If you act professional and the photos come out good a model will shoot with you again. On our shoot you did not act professional by fighting with that family but the photos did come out good so I may have considered shooting with you again when I had more time, you knew I was busy. Then you tell me you holding my photos ransom until I shoot with you again. What did you think that would accomplish? All you did was piss me off.
Either start acting more professional, because you’re a good photographer, or stay away from people. You lucky I’m a nice guy because doing what you did will probably get you beat up next time.

Nah... Not good enough reasons... He's just trying to back-pedal now because he realizes he's a theif...   and that he could be prosecuted...

There is nothing against fighting for a parking spot first of all...  I mean it's always great to just let it go and find another instead of fighting but...  see it all the time...  second you didn't steal a parking spot you occupied it...  as for you holding the pictures ransom you said before that you explained to him that you have had other models not follow through with the deal once you gave them the pictures...  If the terms you two had agreed upon when shooting was for you to give him the pictures after he did another shoot then, he should understand that your trying to protect yourself just as he is...

In any case... Just seems like a big mis-understanding between the two of you... Although I don't think two wrongs make a right... and "An eye for an eye leave the world blind", so I don't think him stealing the CD justifies anything...  If anything it would only show that he is willing to do even worse then what he is complaining about...  Don't remember you stealing anything and running away...

He talks about professionalism yet what he did is "THEFT" (how professional is that?) nothing he describes you doing is illegal...  Yea I could understand he's upset that he doesn't have the pictures right away and that you are trying to protect yourself by holding out till he follows through with his end of the deal, but I'm sure he would do the same in a reverse situation.  If anything he only proved that you were RIGHT, by showing that once people get the photo's they screw you...  He made a perfect example out of himself of what you were talking about...

Hope you guys could come to a resolution...  Keep us updated!

Cheers!

P.S.  He just seems like an ignorant person after reading the last sentence in the paragraph...  How professional is talking about beating someone up?  is he trying to imply you were lucky he didn't?  Sounds like it could be considered a mild threat...  Where's my lawyer at...