Posted by Zero Dean: 
I take my profession seriously. I wish more photographers did the same, but I think it's clear that many photographers are into photography for the wrong reasons.

I've repeatedly heard stories from models I've worked with about "creepy" photographers and basically others in the profession giving photographers a bad name due to unprofessional behaviour.

I'm sure this won't change, but it's clear simply from reading some of the shout box comments posted by photographers on this site that some of those creepy photographers are among us.

What "professional behaviour" is NOT (in my opinion):

PHOTOGRAPHERS:

- Hitting on models
- Using photography as a way to "find dates"
- Making lewd comments to models
- Touching models (without permission) during a shoot
- Using the "shout box" to post lewd comments, have sexually toned conversations, and talk about being aroused, etc. There's a time & a place for everything.
- Continuously talking about how "hot" a model is (guys, if you're really affected by how hot a model is, maybe you should choose a different profession)

MODELS:

- Showing up late to photo shoots
- Cancelling photo shoots at the last minute
- Showing up to a shoot with wrinkled, lint, and hair infested clothing
- Partying the night before a shoot & showing up haggard and unrested

I'm sure this will rile somebody up. Anyone care to comment?

I'm just baffled by the attitude and behaviour of those in this profession... and also by those who put up with it.

Posted by Jenni: 

I'd like to add to the list of unprofessional behavior for photograhers:
-Taking your clothes off during the shoot
-Telling the model how "hot" shes making you
(ESPECIALLY WHEN SHE'S UNDER AGE!)
- Telling the girl to do something shes not comfortable with that stupid line "I'll make you a star"

Taking your clothes off during the shoot? does that happen?

WowI need to get lessons from some of these guys. LMAO

Ohhhyeah I remember why I came in here. Some of us take ourselves a little too seriously.

Shawn

Posted by EricMuss-Barnes: 
Aw, man. I had such an articulate reply earlier in this thread and no one commented on it.

Where's the love?

(smirk)

::::showing some love::::


I thought it was a good response ('course though...I'm a no-body.)

Posted by Zero Dean: 
I take my profession seriously. I wish more photographers did the same, but I think it's clear that many photographers are into photography for the wrong reasons.

I've repeatedly heard stories from models I've worked with about "creepy" photographers and basically others in the profession giving photographers a bad name due to unprofessional behaviour.

I'm sure this won't change, but it's clear simply from reading some of the shout box comments posted by photographers on this site that some of those creepy photographers are among us.

What "professional behaviour" is NOT (in my opinion):

PHOTOGRAPHERS:

- Hitting on models
- Using photography as a way to "find dates"
- Making lewd comments to models
- Touching models (without permission) during a shoot
- Using the "shout box" to post lewd comments, have sexually toned conversations, and talk about being aroused, etc. There's a time & a place for everything, but posting this stuff on a public site where it's recorded shows a lack of good judgement in my opinion.
- Continuously talking about how "hot" a model is (guys, if you're really affected by how hot a model is, maybe you should choose a different profession)

MODELS:

- Showing up late to photo shoots
- Cancelling photo shoots at the last minute
- Showing up to a shoot with wrinkled, lint, and hair infested clothing
- Partying the night before a glamour/fashion/beauty shoot & showing up haggard and unrested

I'm sure this will rile somebody up. Anyone care to comment?

I'm just baffled by the attitude and behaviour of those in this profession... and also by those who put up with it.

I care to comment on this!!!!  Yes, there are both bad or "creepy" photographers out there and models who really don't give shit about their career.  I on the other hand do care about my career and take it very seriously.  I am a mother, a wife, a model, help with my husbands business and right now also working back at the law firm temporarily, because of a secretary being out.  Remembering that I haven't worked at that firm for over a year and had trained the secretary 2 years prior.  I obviously have responsibility.  My husband's business we have employees and I swear it is like "babysitting", non dependable people, people who don't care, it seems like it is in every business or company out there.  You just have to "weed" those kinds of people out.  Another key factor in this is COMMUNICATION.  And I don't mean an email here and an email there.  I mean talking on the phone, human relations and asking in depth questions whether you are a photographer OR a model. 

   Photographers need to start weeding out the models who just do this for fun, or have no goal whatsoever in this kind of career path.  Models who are not serious and do this without goals, should step down and go do something else.    Models who do those things mentioned above, make it harder for the ones who are very serious, and go out there and pursue this career aggressively.  Models who do care should always take someone with them to a shoot, especially since there are those "creepy" photographers out there.  It all really goes back to communication, which in many cases, is the key to a lot of things.  Instinct in also good, if you don't mesh well enough through communication, odds are it isn't going to work out.  If you have any doubts about a shoot, don't do it.  It will show in the images!!  Anyway, I had to respond to this posting.  It is an ongoing problem with both photographers and models.  And to be honest, there are bad on both sides. 

McKenzie 

Posted by McKenzie: 
Photographers need to start weeding out the models who just do this for fun, or have no goal whatsoever in this kind of career path.  Models who are not serious and do this without goals, should step down and go do something else.

Surely you're not suggesting that people should stop modeling as a hobby? What about models and photographers who say, "I just do this for fun. I'm not looking to make a career out of it."

Are you saying that such people shouldn't be allowed to do that? That the only people who should be models and photographers are the ones who want to make a living off of it?

Posted by Zero Dean:
What "professional behaviour" is NOT (in my opinion):

PHOTOGRAPHERS:

- Hitting on models

Oh crap! What to do, what to do?

When I am at shoots or fashionshows... there are several models I know for quite a while now... we flirt, we hit on each other, we laugh... we tease...

During breaks, those friends (yeah, we all became friends over time) lean on me, coming over kiss me on my cheeks, just for fun...

It's a great atmosphere, it's fun and playfull... now I have to remind them that they can't do that to me anymore, and I won't flirt and tease anymore either, because I want to be a professional and just can't take that lovie dovie stuff anymore.

Posted by Zero Dean: 
(Visual M  - First, I like your work. You have a great eye. I also appreciate your comments, though I don't entirely agree with your perspective. But whatever, it's cool.)

This may or may not be a site geared towards professionals, but I think if one is representing themselves as being in a profession, particularly a site where there are links to your work amongst hundreds of your peers and potential clients, there is a certain expectation that one conduct themselves with a certain level of professionalism.

What one does in the privacy of a chatroom is one thing, but posting certain "innappropriate" comments to a public web site/page, while at the same time essentially wearing a "Hi, my name is [name], and I'm a photographer" tag is unprofessional and shows a certain lack of maturity.

There will always be people who can get away with innappropriate behaviour and still get work. Serial killers do what they do because they can get away with it, too. That doesn't make it right.

I also think that anyone with the attitude, "If I can get away with it, why not?" tends to lose some credibility. For example, I'm less likely to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they admit something like that and then they make points about how in demand they are.

VM, I'm not saying you're not fully booked for 3 months. Hell, you could be fully booked for 6 months and that'd be great and you have my respect for whatever it is you do that puts you in that position. Obviously if you're fully booked for 3 months, you must be doing something right.

I'm just saying that you lose some credibility when you openly admit to endorsing unprofessional behaviour and do so because you can "get away with it".

In any case, we may not agree on everything, but I wish you well and look forward to seeing more of your work.

I don't take life too seriously (god, my name is Zero, how could I?), but I do take my profession seriously. Why? Because this is my sole source of income and how I make a living. This is how I pay my bills and what I struggle to improve my skills with each time a take a picture.

People who are not doing photography as their sole source of income simply do not have the same perspective about it as those who do. I've invested 10's of thousands of dollars for the equipment I own and I pay a good chunk of change each month for the studio space I have. And I pay insurance for that space and liability for my clients while they are in that space. And when all is said and done, 30% of my income goes directly to taxes.

I don't care how good you are, it's always a challenge when you are making it as a self-employed/freelance photographer. This is also one of the things I love about it.

What I don't like is seeing people being taken advantage of or my clients getting into situations with other photographers that reflect badly on the rest of us. In turn, it makes what I do more difficult.

Do I think posting a few lines in the forums here is going to make a bit of difference anywhere? No. Am I so self-important that I think anyone is really going to care? Hell no. This is the internet. All the models here are probably 60 year old men anyway... and the photographers teenage boys.

But I at least figured it'd at least be an interesting conversation and it's always cool to read about other experiences and I appreciate everyone's input, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. Respect.

I'm a lunch break from work and I have to make this quick.  I was thinking about what I said and in no way to I condone such behavior.  I mean, some people could get away with it.  People just know that's the way I just am online.  In person, it's a different story.  I'm a total professional, which is why I'm always getting work and I never have any problems with anyone.  I know some people find my actions irritable, but who cares.  I've never had a complaint from a model once.  The only people that complain are photographers. 

Anyways, to make a long story short.  Not anyone could get away being like me.  Especially if you're old.  Please please don't try this at home.

By the way, some people just look like creeps.  Don't try to fit the profile.

Another thing, I don't hit on or flirt with models.  It's called having good public relations.

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

When I am at shoots or fashionshows... there are several models I know for quite a while now... we flirt, we hit on each other, we laugh... we tease...

During breaks, those friends (yeah, we all became friends over time) lean on me, coming over kiss me on my cheeks, just for fun...

It's a great atmosphere, it's fun and playfull...

I am sure several recipients of lawsuits for sexual harrassment considered their behaviour "fun and playful" at the time also. Try telling that to the judge.

This aint the corporate world, but it doesn't mean you can't be slapped with a lawsuit anyway.

What you do with your friends is one thing, what you do with your clients is another. If you are in a position to be friends with your clients, that's great, but it's a fine line.

To each their own, but I stand by my comment that hitting on models is not professional behaviour.

I know of a part-time photographer that was a nurse as well as a "certified masseus" (so he claimed). The "nurse" part made models trust him (a male nurse, how "sensitive")... and the "masseus" claim definitely came in handy when we offered to rub down the models to help them relax. I'm sure he felt he was just being a friend also.

What happened to the guy? He was finally reported to the police by a parent of one of the under age models he worked with... and during the investigation that ensued, several models were contacted concerning his behaviour and they discovered it was wide-spread and it was worse than most people suspected.

He also made a habit of taping his models during his studio shoots (for his "protection", he claimed), but would let the the camera run while the girls were changing in the studio (he encouraged this by asking if they wanted to change and then he'd leave the room while they did so).

Come to find out, the name he was using wasn't even his real name and he had a previous record.

I don't know what happened to the guy. He basically disappeared. Funny thing is, he was married and ran the studio out of his own home. He also did weddings. Seemed pretty legit.

I met him once (did a group shoot with him once). He seemed like a nice enough guy. Gave off a bit of a weird vibe  though... like something just wasn't quite right with the guy.

Never worked with him again.

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 
If you can do it and get away with it, why not?  I mean, I guess some people haven't got out in a while.  Ever been to industry parties and what not?  You're fucking with the industry.  You can't change it, work with it.

I would agree with Dean that you are going to get whacked in the nuts one day by a model who doesn't think the same way as you.

Posted by Zero Dean: 

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

When I am at shoots or fashionshows... there are several models I know for quite a while now... we flirt, we hit on each other, we laugh... we tease...

During breaks, those friends (yeah, we all became friends over time) lean on me, coming over kiss me on my cheeks, just for fun...

It's a great atmosphere, it's fun and playfull...

I am sure several recipients of lawsuits for sexual harrassment considered their behaviour "fun and playful" at the time also. Try telling that to the judge.

This aint the corporate world, but it doesn't mean you can't be slapped with a lawsuit anyway.

What you do with your friends is one thing, what you do with your clients is another. If you are in a position to be friends with your clients, that's great, but it's a fine line.

To each their own, but I stand by my comment that hitting on models is not professional behaviour.

Well... I am not the one who "starts" this kind of behavious and if you take a look at my comments on my profile, from models I work at those shows... then you will see what I mean.

I think you are jumping the fence here a little bit too fast, at least what concerns me.

I NEVER EVER, make any kind of suggestions, or promises as NoirHalo described.

Fact is that people feel very comfortable around me and that is a reason why I am so good at portraiture. I don't put any pressure on anybody and respect all the people around me...

I am VERY sensitised to sexual harrassment situations, since I used to be a corporate CEO... for a long time...

I will never do anything even remotely, even physical contact with any girl that is not one of my friends and otherwise keep a lot of distance...

The line is not as fine as you think it is... it's only fine if you are oblivious about the law and about feelings and boundaries of other people... basically, if you are not truly professional.

Also... I am not a "chick photographer", I am more interested in faces of people, instead of half nekkid bodies!

I love photography and portraits of people that are interesting. Fashion and runway photography is only ONE segment of what I am doing. And that part works just fine the way how it is.

Posted by Zero Dean: 
Udo - no disrespect intended.
But obviously things I would say to someone during the first shoot would be quite different than someone I'd had an extended working relationship with.

Exactly... things have to be handled according to the situation, and as you can see at the comments I am getting... I do know pretty well how to handle myself... LOL

What Noir wrote, is actually exactly what kind of behaviour I was thinking of reading your post.

Unfortunately... there are photographers who are using that artform and craft as a ticket to get laid.

Posted by MGAphoto (ANT): 
I would agree with Dean that you are going to get whacked in the nuts one day by a model who doesn't think the same way as you.

I don't come on to models, so there is no reason to get whacked in the nuts.

Me and a few photographers have told models to shut up in the past.  We've also told a few models that they were acting like bitches.  The wierdest thing about it, is that it just turned them on, lol.  Anyways, I have no problem with telling models no.  I have total self control.

Posted by McKenzie: 
No, but that is a good comeback question!  I think that is the non-serious people that are going to model are going to do this..and if for fun fine....BUT, they should treat this seriously with communication and respect to photographers.  The no shows, no calling if things change etc, and if they can't treat it seriously (even if they are doing this as a hobby) and not being professional about it, then yes, they need to step away.  They can have fun doing something, but still have a professional attitude to go with it.  Same with photographers.  Whether hobby or serious in both directions, you still have to have some kind of professionalism, communication and maturity behind it.

Ohhhhh. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree with you 1000% there. Even if a shoot is "just for fun" the no-shows and last-minute-cancellations are just plain rude.

Even if models and photographers are total newbie amatures, just out having fun, they need to treat each other with a respectful professionalism by returning calls and not flaking and things like that. Yeah. I agree with you completely once you clarified it.

Posted by Jenni: 
I'd like to add to the list of unprofessional behavior for photograhers:
-Taking your clothes off during the shoot

Ha! I had that happen once. It was actually pretty funny. It's a photographer I'm pretty good friends with. We were shooting some silly stuff in his bathroom and he said he wanted to shoot some naded. I said "Okay. you can get if you really want." And then we were both too stubborn to call the other out.

For future reference, this is not something I would appreciate at most shoots.

Posted by Brian Kim: 
Okay, let's see, inser sarcasm here...

"Trust me, I'm a doctor! Now get naked..."

Yeah, palm licker photogs make everyone look bad. It's agreed. (best Master Chang accent) "Grasshopper, there is no defense agianst such and attack."

::::Reese has dead look on her face as she begins taking off clothes::::

Posted by theda: 
I had that happen once. It was actually pretty funny. It's a photographer I'm pretty good friends with. We were shooting some silly stuff in his bathroom and he said he wanted to shoot some naded.

I always joked around about shooting naked.  Didn't think other people had the same idea I had.  lol

Posted by Washphoto: 
A lousy photographer shoots you as you are, a good one--as you would like to be, but a great photographer shoots you--as you wish you were!  You cannot reach that level of interconnected spirits by being coldly or bluntly being Mr. proper and polite.  You connect, you understand each other, you share insight, laughter, and passion, and you shoot...

Extremely well said. I agree entirely.