Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13890
Chicago, Illinois, US
Meehan Photography wrote:
How slowly are you going to pull this carrot on a string? Or Fish Hook. Just askin questions, curious why he said what he said.
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
How to get paid
Diversification in networking: Don't only rely only on MM there is OMP, Craig's list, Fineartguild.com, local networking parties and events, yahoo groups, myspace, tribe, workshops, night clubs, and other avenues to get your name out in several markets not just one. Remember networking is key, a lot of artists and photographer share names of models they have worked with. Do one workshop with 5 photographers and that is 5 potential photographers who may have a job for you in the future donât forget the photographer who is teaching the class as well. And better yet each of those photographers may know someone else who is looking for a person to play a bit part in the new movie they are having trouble casting.
Diversification in jobs: What genre do you want to work in? The real question is how many genreâs CAN you work in? Art & figure modeling, runway, glamour fetish, commercial, now think outside of the box, there are many artists who need models not jus photographers, sculptors need models, as do painters, and art teachers and art students, Some artists need models for body castings. Not all art is pretty and glamorous. I played a dead girl in a bath tub once. Some models also work with promotions passing out samples and information, or wearing new outfits by local designers to clubs, movie bits, and the good old fun job of go-go dancing.
Contacts: make your self easy to find, every photographer and artist has a different venue they go to find models some you meet on the street, some you meet in galleries some you meet at book signings. Always have your business card or comp card at all times I recommend a web site with email. Easy to say, easy to spell, easy to remember. Have your cell number usable at all times or get a modeling cell only if you are worried about privacy. If a photographer thinks of you for a project you need to make sure he/she can FIND YOU and contact you in 2 minutes or less. I know a lot of photographers who lament about the model they though of and donât have any info on. They canât recall the OMP number or the last nameâ¦
Replies: Now you have photographers and artists contacting you. Reply back to them even if you do not want to work with that job. A simple no thank you Iâm booked that day or I do not think that job is right for me but please keep me in mind for other jobs you may have in the future. Will do just that, it will keep you out of the little black books everyone professes to have. After each job send a little thank you email letting them know you appreciate the fact that they hired you and picked you for the job. This goes for studio managers as well as photographers. Sometimes just a âit was great to meet youâ is all that is needed to get you on a mental list of models to work with.
Payment: Oh right you are doing all of this to get paid. Payment comes in many ways her is a fun little list I have been keeping up to date in all the crazy ways I have been paid for my work.
Cash
Prints
Room
Board
Plane tickets
Movie tickets
Sushi
Hair cuts, color, styles,
Ramen
Fresh lemons
Fresh catnip
Wine
Clothing
Free night club entrance
Free drinks
Books
CDâs
Free trips vacations
Spankings (That was special donât get any ideas)
Tattoos
Rum Soaked Truffles
All the hot wings I can eat
All the wonderful beautiful new places I have traveled to and seen.
All the wonderful beautiful people I have met and learned from.
The chance to be immortalized in art
Photographer
Awesome Photos
Posts: 208
Santa Maria, California, US
f4photos, you are absolutely right. I totally agree with you. Well said and enough said. Let us move on.
Happy shooting every one.
Photographer
Veteres Vitri
Posts: 1994
MAYLENE, Alabama, US
Odd i'm agreeing with posts from people i usually have nothing in common with.
Sucess often depends more on marketing than on talent. At the moment you haven't marketed yourself very well. Not to be harsh but i saw nothing in your port here that couldn't be done with a chimpanzee and a camera set to auto.
Put some good shots up that emphazise your strengths and what niche you want to fufill.
Another point about the market. Most people just prefer to shoot the female form.
You really have to set yourself apart to overcome that hurdle. I have no problem shooting men, but if i'm going to incur a loss on an artistic endeavour it would more likely go to female eyecandy than the male. I shoot for art's sake. The profit motive is removed. The dozen or so large prints i've sold i've made more money on the framing and glass than the actual print when you cut to brass tacs.
Somewhere in another thread someone was nice enough to post a table about cost-v-rates they would pay a model. This was posted by an artistic shooter and it's a good read. Wish i had the link but i'm a little lazy to use the search function at the moment.
I think you should try and go with an agency. Personally if i earned a living with a camera and i had the overhead of a studio, hired a mua i would hire the talent from a brick and mortar business. I don't shoot for a living, tons of other photogs here don't shoot for a living so you won't make a living off of us. When i'm stateside i'll pay a full rate for a model every 2 or 3 months. Other than that i pay a reduced rate with a generous model release and some prints.
Can you pay your rent just being a model. Maybe all things are possible in the world, but do you really want to work with no retirement, no insurance and no stability? Get some excellent shots and see what happens.
Model
Mitsukai
Posts: 581
Walnut Creek, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
Disagreeing with my point of view is one thing. You are entitled to that. Insulting me simply due to a portfolio that is as yet being fully put together is another.
If you are so great, then that kind of self-righteous crap should be beneath you, but you have clearly demonstrated your own shortcomings as a human being. Best of luck to you, you apparently need to feel good about yourself by putting others down. Mark was very straightforward about it but he had the right idea. Sugar coating it will get you nowhere. An agency would tell you the same thing, except they'd be more harsh about it.
If you have four photos on your portfolio and you're demanding payment, unless the photographer has a client that's willing to pay chances are you're not going to get paid. Here's how it works. You build up an amazing portfolio and are in high demand and people are going to want to pay you for your time. If you want to work with a photographer that's work blows you away you're going to pay them. You're not going to pay to work with a GWC are you? It works the other way around too. A good photographer isn't going to pay for your time because they can find someone better to pay or possibly work for free. A shitty photographer might, however if you take only those jobs you could make a few hundred bucks but you'll never get anywhere with the modeling. Do TFP until you get a good portfolio and then you can ask for payment.
Photographer
Mark
Posts: 2978
New York, New York, US
TheArchon wrote:
Oh, and one other thing, Marky boy: You haven't seen my complete portfolio.
Just because this may be YOUR only network site, do not make the mistake of thinking that this is mine.
Photographer
Mark
Posts: 2978
New York, New York, US
TheArchon wrote:
Oh, and one other thing, Marky boy: You haven't seen my complete portfolio.
Just because this may be YOUR only network site, do not make the mistake of thinking that this is mine. That's a good approach, I should try it: Put up a bunch of crappy pictures and then wait for the work to start pouring in.
Just giving you a reality check.
Photographer
commart
Posts: 6078
Hagerstown, Maryland, US
But the heart of the matter has apparently been missed by everyone. I'm going to guess that the heart of the matter is . . . you need work. Would that it were so simple, eh? But it's not. You've given yourself the challenge of spinning some narcissism and entertainer abilities (I'm extrapolating from the under-height fact of the fashion matter, by NYC standards as I've heard them, and the snaps with a guitar) into $$$. If you're honest about your motivation, I think you'll find the following true.
1. Regarding Photographers, you have the right to refuse work paying less than what you feel you're worth. I would gamble that few photographers, if any, on the R side of XXX turn out stock with sales guaranteed; most, as long as I've got some chips down, are using their portfolios to leverage paying gigs, and most are not going to put up risk for that. Should any have a product that makes money by the week, month, or year, they will pay to get what they want and with reliability.
2. Fashion. Assuming you have height, build, and face working for you overtime, there are a few logistical and social hurdles devised, I think, especially for the young. How vigorously you network, how you get representation, how you follow (travel to) the shows may determine if you actually make money at it and enjoy it. For the record, I've become far less enthusiastic for aspiring and hands-down qualified fashion talent over the years but chalk some of that off to age.
3. Entertainment. Assuming the presence of talent and developed skill, entertainment's a business all about culture, material--jokes, songs, screenplays, etc.-- and production. If you're not writing (something), you're a show (one-man band or leader of a few) or a potential part of one, and selling to get those roles--lounge act or principle in a play--is what you get to do between jobs.
Every one of us can practice an art, any art, without market or money, but we can't do the business of the art with someone else's empty pockets or too thin margins.
Model
Mitsukai
Posts: 581
Walnut Creek, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
Oh, and one other thing, Marky boy: You haven't seen my complete portfolio.
Just because this may be YOUR only network site, do not make the mistake of thinking that this is mine. Why would you choose to not put your best images and complete portfolio up on a portfolio site? By doing so you have less of a chance of work.
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17825
El Segundo, California, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
Payment: Oh right you are doing all of this to get paid. Payment comes in many ways her is a fun little list I have been keeping up to date in all the crazy ways I have been paid for my work.
Cash
Prints
Room
Board
Plane tickets
Movie tickets
Sushi
Hair cuts, color, styles,
Ramen
Fresh lemons
Fresh catnip
Wine
Clothing
Free night club entrance
Free drinks
Books
CDâs
Free trips vacations
Spankings (That was special donât get any ideas)
Tattoos
Rum Soaked Truffles
All the hot wings I can eat
All the wonderful beautiful new places I have traveled to and seen.
All the wonderful beautiful people I have met and learned from.
The chance to be immortalized in art There's some interesting payments there. 
Model
Isys Entertainment
Posts: 1420
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Pay me NOW! wrote:
Self explanatory Isys's thoughts wrote:
I like smurfs... I was here
Model
TheArchon
Posts: 183
Pemberton, New Jersey, US
Everybody has made great points, and I am actually glad that so many people responded. Alot of insightful info has been trafficked here. The heart of the matter? Let me tell you what happened first. I chanced upon a photographer who had great shots in his port. He talked the talk of artisitic vision, and I sent a message applauding it. Then I went back to read the last of his profile. It stated something to the effect of not paying models, they should pay me for the privelege. That sent me into spasms of rage, after already having had a bad day. In that state, it occured to me that almost every photographer I'd viewed said something similar, though not nearly as blatant, or disrespectful to the models. Now, I've left and come back on a cooler level, and yes: My post was a bit hot-headed. I was pissed. The heart of it was that photographers do tend to state it rather arrogantly, and then one person DID put it in a light that makes more sense to me, now: DRowan wrote:
You got that right! Where this idea of the Photographer is the Client (who pays) is the result of the digital age making it simple for joe-schmoe to get a camera at Best Buy & call himslf a photographer.
It's a very different thing when someone takes the time (& expense) to really learn their craft, invest in thousands of dollars worth of gear (cameras, lenses, studio equipment, expensive software + learning to get the most from it, editing time, etc, etc). Who's really worth paying now? Photographers put alot of time and money into learning their trade, and even more into equipment and field testing. So yes, I can see where it would be the photographers who would have the right to demand payment, more than models.
I listed my own protocall in terms of preference only; I am not demanding payment at all. I've done the shoots where I got nothing in return other than a fun day out.
ME getting paid was not the forefront issue. I had different expectations of what this site was That was all.
Model
e-string
Posts: 24002
Kansas City, Missouri, US
f4 Photo wrote:
That's absolutely not true. Without a release the photographer cannot legally sell any image for commercial use (or even give them away for commercial use). I wasn't referring to shoots where there's no release involved. Those are pretty rare, at least in my experience.
Photographer
James Jackson Fashion
Posts: 11132
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
TheArchon wrote:
The heart of it was that photographers do tend to state it rather arrogantly We're an arrogant bunch
\o_
Hi... Meet chief arrogant thinks own shit don't stink
Yes, sometimes it comes off arrogant and double standard-ish that we feel we deserve to be paid, and that models sometimes are the ones that deserve to pay us, but we don't feel we should be paying models on a regular basis.
But then again, as I've said to dozens of models... If you don't like it, you take the pictures.
Photographer
SKPhoto
Posts: 25784
Newark, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
OK...I will concede to this, at least: I over stated my point.
But the heart of the matter has apparently been missed by everyone. Ummmm...you would like to be paid more, and have more control over the use of your image to make money and advance your career.
If that's wrong just skip the following.
Well the first one is a big "who doesn't". Do like the rest of us, work, market, sell.
As for the second. The kind of "renumerative" and creative control you seek over your images would cast you more in the light of "client", than hired help. That means you negotiate what rights you want...and then pay for the images so you can do what you want with them.
Model
Isys Entertainment
Posts: 1420
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Chief Arrogant thinks wrote:
Hi... Meet own shit don't stink
I've said to dozens of models... If you don't like it, you take the pictures. Sorry I am having way too much fun..bed time for me..
Model
TheArchon
Posts: 183
Pemberton, New Jersey, US
My goal was not to offend or insult anybody, even as pissed as I was. It was a rant. My apologies, if I did offend or insult.
Photographer
oldguysrule
Posts: 6129
if you or anyone hopes to make anything close to a living modelling, with rare exception, get off the internet and get your behind into the agencies. exclusive, freelance, regional, something... and let's agree that promotional agencies don't count, please... and if you are lucky enough to have the genetics and the timing you will have to bust your ass making casting calls -- which happen to be in major markets, like the agencies, getting rejected 90% of the time, and prepared to do whatever it takes. failing that... just assume you'll be earning your living another way.
real work comes from land based clients who use land based agencies.
Photographer
JBPhoto
Posts: 1107
Belleville, Michigan, US
This may not be the place to look for paid work. Sites like this are great for networking, and if you need to build your book you can't beat this place.
THe problem is for every person looking for paid work, there's 10 people behind them wanting to shoot for free.
Same goes for photogs, so don't feel bad.
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
For the average model who gets work off the internet, it's probably better to really enjoy what you do and think of it as more of a hobby than a career. Judging by the number of "no shows" and "flake out" complains you see, that appears to be the attitude of most internet models anyway. Photographers flake out as well....
Photographer
Class Act Photography
Posts: 6376
STUDIO CITY, California, US
According to your profile, you joined ModelMayhem a week ago.
It's pretty amazing to me too that you haven't been flooded with modeling offers.
I don't think it's unreasonable for you to charge top dollar. I think it's possible, that a lot of the prima donna photographers on this site, are just jealous of how handsome you are. That might factor in to why they are avoiding you. Just keep following your dreams and I know you'll make it someday.
Photographer
Joshua Cruey
Posts: 50
Lake Mary, Florida, US
Kudos to Rodger Miller, well stated!
Photographer
Curt at photoworks
Posts: 31812
Riverside, California, US
Class Act Photography wrote:
According to your profile, you joined ModelMayhem a week ago.
It's pretty amazing to me too that you haven't been flooded with modeling offers.
I don't think it's unreasonable for you to charge top dollar. I think it's possible, that a lot of the prima donna photographers on this site, are just jealous of how handsome you are. That might factor in to why they are avoiding you. Just keep following your dreams and I know you'll make it someday. I want to agree with what CAP has to say. At all levels of the communication. This is because 1) I do agree, and, 2) because I just want to demonstrate that in principle and practicality that it is possible that I could agree with a statement that he might make.
It's extremely unlikely that this will ever occur again.
Photographer
Curt at photoworks
Posts: 31812
Riverside, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
My goal was not to offend or insult anybody, even as pissed as I was. It was a rant. My apologies, if I did offend or insult. I have such a high "sigh" threshold, but I'm afraid that it is exceeded here.
Rants have a high probability of offending.
so so so much to learn.
Photographer
WOLF WILSON
Posts: 648
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
James Jackson wrote:
We're an arrogant bunch
\o_
Hi... Meet chief arrogant thinks own shit don't stink
Yes, sometimes it comes off arrogant and double standard-ish that we feel we deserve to be paid, and that models sometimes are the ones that deserve to pay us, but we don't feel we should be paying models on a regular basis.
But then again, as I've said to dozens of models... If you don't like it, you take the pictures. My shit smells like roses
Photographer
Joe Koz
Posts: 1981
Lititz, Pennsylvania, US
Class Act Photography wrote:
According to your profile, you joined ModelMayhem a week ago.
It's pretty amazing to me too that you haven't been flooded with modeling offers.
I don't think it's unreasonable for you to charge top dollar. I think it's possible, that a lot of the prima donna photographers on this site, are just jealous of how handsome you are. That might factor in to why they are avoiding you. Just keep following your dreams and I know you'll make it someday. HELP ... the coffee sprayed all over my monitor! My keyboard is soaked!
GAWD, there's nothing like an encouraging word to make the day go better ... except maybe a good, flat out, coffee spraying laugh.
Photographer
Robert Feliciano
Posts: 580
New York, New York, US
Outlaw Photography wrote:
Ask Niki Taylor to work on a release. *LOL* I'm not sure, but I don't think your understanding of a release is the same as mine or F4's. Of course any professional model signs a release (or the agency signs it for her). The magazine won't publish a photo without a signed release.
If a recording artist is shot for the cover of Rolling Stone, do you think he/she/they is/are paid? No, they do it for the publicity. And the release (which is a contract) states that the magazine can use the photo on it's cover, sell it, and can also use the magazine cover for additional advertising. Depending on who's more famous: the photographer or subject, the photographer may insist on additional rights, like being published in a book. See Mark Seliger's work.
Model
Josie Nutter
Posts: 5865
Seattle, Washington, US
Can you make money as a model from work you get on the Internet? Sure. It's possible. Can you make a living? That's less likely. Will you get rich? Almost certainly not.
For the average model who gets work off the internet, it's probably better to really enjoy what you do and think of it as more of a hobby than a career. Agreed. The only models I know who make a living modelling fall into one of these categories:
* Are signed with a big mainstream agency in a major city.
* Do porn / other "adult" work.
I would think that it would also be possible to live on wages from regular promotional modelling gigs, but that's more sales work than modelling.
Model
e-string
Posts: 24002
Kansas City, Missouri, US
Josie Nutter wrote:
Agreed. The only models I know who make a living modelling fall into one of these categories:
* Are signed with a big mainstream agency in a major city.
* Do porn / other "adult" work.
I would think that it would also be possible to live on wages from regular promotional modelling gigs, but that's more sales work than modelling. I have been able to support myself on photo shoots. Barely, but I did it.
Photographer
D Freeman
Posts: 490
Fresno, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
Oh, and one other thing, Marky boy: You haven't seen my complete portfolio.
Just because this may be YOUR only network site, do not make the mistake of thinking that this is mine. In his defense.. *you* are the one who said you came here to make money. If that was your intention, then we have to assume that the portfolio that you're displaying is the same one you use to market yourself to potential clents. As a potential client.. he's saying that your portfolio is lacking, and to be honest.. I'd have to agree. Before you get defensive.. ask yourself.. if a photographer had the exact same images in his portfolio.. would you really hire him when you have so many other choices?
Photographer
Class Act Photography
Posts: 6376
STUDIO CITY, California, US
TheArchon wrote:
Oh, and one other thing, Marky boy: You haven't seen my complete portfolio.
Just because this may be YOUR only network site, do not make the mistake of thinking that this is mine. Demarcus Freeman wrote:
In his defense.. *you* are the one who said you came here to make money. If that was your intention, then we have to assume that the portfolio that you're displaying is the same one you use to market yourself to potential clents. As a potential client.. he's saying that your portfolio is lacking, and to be honest.. I'd have to agree. Before you get defensive.. ask yourself.. if a photographer had the exact same images in his portfolio.. would you really hire him when you have so many other choices? Demarcus,
Please don't be such a hater. The poor man is struggling to make it in the modeling world and needs encouragement, rather than a jealous tirade. We all started at the bottom once. You saw his portfolio. The poor guy doesn't even own shoes. Please be a little kinder and think of his feelings.
Model
Mitsukai
Posts: 581
Walnut Creek, California, US
Class Act Photography wrote:
Demarcus,
Please don't be such a hater. The poor man is struggling to make it in the modeling world and needs encouragement, rather than a jealous tirade. We all started at the bottom once. You saw his portfolio. The poor guy doesn't even own shoes. Please be a little kinder and think of his feelings. I laughed.
Photographer
Class Act Photography
Posts: 6376
STUDIO CITY, California, US
I think that the "truth" in this situation is as esemplasticly illusory as Berkeley's ideals, and is structurally bound to a specific perceiver. Stating it as a truth indicates an invariable, rather than a highly variable issue. Ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.
Photographer
Analog Nomad
Posts: 4097
Pattaya, Central, Thailand
I think you've gotten some good advice here.
The one thing I will say -- I think most models don't understand the amount of work they have to do to market themselves. There seems to be an assumption that all you need to do is post a profile on a couple of modeling sites, and the work will come to you.
And to some extent, it will. But it's not going to be the kind of work you want. It'll be mostly photographers wanting to shoot TFP with you. Don't be mad at us -- it's just the way the world works. You are free to turn down every single TFP offer you receive.
If you want the paying jobs, you have to get out there and network with the people who are offering them. There is no substitute for face time. This turns out to be a lot of work.
I think your expectation should be that MM will produce one to three paying jobs per year. Beyond that, you will have to go out and get them yourself. Exactly how you do that depends on the specific market you are in. If your market has modeling agencies, you need to visit them immediately. If your market is so small that there are no agencies, then you're going to have to network with photographers, other models, and makeup artists to find out who hires, and then introduce yourself to them.
Regards,
Paul
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 22898
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
Outlaw Photography wrote:
The fact you work on releases tells me alot about you. f4 Photo wrote:
The fact that you don't understand that a release is a contract tells me a lot about you.
A suppose the ASMP is unprofessional too?
http://www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/releases/ You will always be able to spot models that he has advised... they will have "I don't sign releases" in their profile.
That will definitely ensure them a ton of work... NOT!!! ROTFLMAO.
Studio36
Photographer
FKVPhotography
Posts: 30064
Ocala, Florida, US
bang bang photo wrote:
I think you've gotten some good advice here.
The one thing I will say -- I think most models don't understand the amount of work they have to do to market themselves. There seems to be an assumption that all you need to do is post a profile on a couple of modeling sites, and the work will come to you.
And to some extent, it will. But it's not going to be the kind of work you want. It'll be mostly photographers wanting to shoot TFP with you. Don't be mad at us -- it's just the way the world works. You are free to turn down every single TFP offer you receive.
If you want the paying jobs, you have to get out there and network with the people who are offering them. There is no substitute for face time. This turns out to be a lot of work.
I think your expectation should be that MM will produce one to three paying jobs per year. Beyond that, you will have to go out and get them yourself. Exactly how you do that depends on the specific market you are in. If your market has modeling agencies, you need to visit them immediately. If your market is so small that there are no agencies, then you're going to have to network with photographers, other models, and makeup artists to find out who hires, and then introduce yourself to them.
Regards,
Paul This is the best piece of advice on this thread.
I know there are "super models" and "top notch shooters" there who have work flood their way.....I'm not one of them unfortunately!
I have to market myself each and every day. Especially in my small market area. While the reaction I get when someone asks what I do for a living is "hey, that's cool".....the reality is that 75% of my time is spent looking for the work that allows me to shoot the other 25%.
If you think that "looking" like a model and posting a few pics on a some web sites is going to bring in the work......I hope starvation is a feeling you enjoy. Stop thinking in terms of "modeling" and start with business matters......MARKETING!
Photographer
Ty Simone
Posts: 2885
Edison, New Jersey, US
Here we are again back at the release / usage debate. If you do a search you will see that the courts have ruled before, and there is a case pending appeal that will definately finish the debate. (so far it has been in favor of the photographer.) 1. You do not need a release from the model to sell your images in any shape form or fashion, UNLESS, it is to promote a product or service directly. Let me explain that for you once again.... If you are using a photo for an Ad for Nike Shoes, then you need that release. If you are using the photo for a book of artwork, you do not, UNLESS it is the cover image, or is the only image promoting the work itself. Tiger Woods, yes the Tiger Woods, recently lost a case where the photographer took a picture of him, converted it into an art piece (lithograph) Sold it, and even placed it in the brochure to sell it amoung other products. The courts ruled it was not Commercial Speech (which is where you do need a release) because the piece in and of itself was not promoting a product or service other than itself, except it's own sale. In NYC there was a big to do about an image taken of a Jew that was the cover of a book. the courts ruled that a release was not necessary, and that the Jew had no expectation of privacy on a sidewalk, and that he did not have a right to publicity because it was not commercial speech. 2. A release is a binding contract according to the courts. In order to be a contract, there must be an exchange of goods, services, or compensation. in a TFP/TFCD situation, the exchange is Time for Prints (or CD) The Release usually assocaited with a TFP is a Commercial Release, that allows the photographer to use the images in Commercial Speech without further compensation. It protects the photographer from any right to Publicity claims. For the photog that posted he does not work with models or photogs that do not understand releases, does that mean you will no longer work with yourself? Just so you know. I am in production of a book of artwork, and several of my pieces use models that have never signed a release. According to both the publisher and my lawyer, it is not an issue. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CONSULT AN ATTORNEY, NOT A FORUM, FOR LEGAL ANSWERS. as you can see, Legal opinions on here are like assholes, Everyone has them, and a lot of them stink.
Photographer
Ty Simone
Posts: 2885
Edison, New Jersey, US
As for the OP, when you become professional level as a model, then you will make money. It is as simple as that.
I know several models on here that make decent money, so maybe it is just you?
Photographer
Analog Nomad
Posts: 4097
Pattaya, Central, Thailand
Hi Ty, I'm more or less in agreement with what you say here. My only quibble -- right to publicity law is state law, and some states are more aggressive about it than others. So what you have to say may be very true in New York or New Jersey, for example, but the landscape might be a bit different in one of the other states with stricter right-to-publicity laws. Regards, Paul Ty Simone wrote:
Here we are again back at the release / usage debate.
If you do a search you will see that the courts have ruled before, and there is a case pending appeal that will definately finish the debate. (so far it has been in favor of the photographer.)
1. You do not need a release from the model to sell your images in any shape form or fashion, UNLESS, it is to promote a product or service directly.
Let me explain that for you once again....
If you are using a photo for an Ad for Nike Shoes, then you need that release.
If you are using the photo for a book of artwork, you do not, UNLESS it is the cover image, or is the only image promoting the work itself.
Tiger Woods, yes the Tiger Woods, recently lost a case where the photographer took a picture of him, converted it into an art piece (lithograph) Sold it, and even placed it in the brochure to sell it amoung other products.
The courts ruled it was not Commercial Speech (which is where you do need a release) because the piece in and of itself was not promoting a product or service other than itself, except it's own sale.
In NYC there was a big to do about an image taken of a Jew that was the cover of a book. the courts ruled that a release was not necessary, and that the Jew had no expectation of privacy on a sidewalk, and that he did not have a right to publicity because it was not commercial speech.
2. A release is a binding contract according to the courts. In order to be a contract, there must be an exchange of goods, services, or compensation.
in a TFP/TFCD situation, the exchange is Time for Prints (or CD)
The Release usually assocaited with a TFP is a Commercial Release, that allows the photographer to use the images in Commercial Speech without further compensation. It protects the photographer from any right to Publicity claims.
For the photog that posted he does not work with models or photogs that do not understand releases, does that mean you will no longer work with yourself?
Just so you know.
I am in production of a book of artwork, and several of my pieces use models that have never signed a release. According to both the publisher and my lawyer, it is not an issue.
YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CONSULT AN ATTORNEY, NOT A FORUM, FOR LEGAL ANSWERS.
as you can see, Legal opinions on here are like assholes, Everyone has them, and a lot of them stink.
Model
NC17
Posts: 1739
Baltimore, Maryland, US
James Jackson wrote:
Well here's how I view this site (even with my recent discovery of a much greater hobby section than I had previously assumed existed): This is a great site to network, get your name out there, discover techniques, pick up new bits of knowledge here and there, and learn...but for making money? I think there's a very very small percentage that actually make money off being on this site and others like it... most of those are female figure models.
As I've said (and now I'm starting to feel like a broken record, sorry): If you want to be a model and make money you have to figure out what you're going to market yourself as. As with any business you have to sell yourself to your clients, and in your case you need to figure out who those are as well.
So, the general basic model questions apply:
- What kind of modeling do you aspire to?
- What kind of modeling do you qualify for?
- What kind of portfolio do you have?
- What kind of work are you not willing to do (and perhaps more importantly why, but you can keep that internal)?
They're big questions...they have a lot of implications on your future as a model, and they also affect your use of this site and what you try to do while you're here.
Will you become a well paid international male supermodel by just being here? No, not by just being here... This is the best well thought out advice out there. I quoted it all so that it could be read again. It needs to be by any new model.
Being a model requires the forethought to know where you're going. Theres many many different areas out there to focus on, and its up to you to decide what is important. Yes, its very possible to make money off of this site. BUT that all depends on what your focus is. If you're attempting to focus on something that isn't going to work for you in the long run according to how the industry works, then you'll end up bitter and frustrated the whole time. If you're smart you'll figure out where your forte fits in with the industry and run with it. Modeling = marketing of yourself. The better you can do that the more money you can earn.
TheArchon wrote:
My goal was not to offend or insult anybody, even as pissed as I was. It was a rant. My apologies, if I did offend or insult. Maybe next time try warning us that it is a rant. Or put your rant somewhere else that doesn't have relation to this site. Be smart about it, even if you are angry. Believe me, parts of this business make us all angry from time to time.
Best of luck in whatever direction you choose to go in.
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