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Details for photo shoots?
I'm not trying to start a fight, but I would like to know why some photogs contact models saying they want to work together yet when asked about their ideas for a shoot they are not forthcoming? I've had this happen repeatedly. I've even got the equivialant of 'I don't know, what do you want to do?' I always thought that if you contact someone about working together that meant you had an idea of what you wanted to achieve or an image in your head of what could be done. Excuse me if this sounds arguementative and I know photogs aren't the only ones guilty of this, but I'm just curious about this 'I want to work with you, but only if it's your ideas?' It's almost like they don't want to use their creativity or (this will sound much harsher than I'd like it to) don't want to think. Does anyone know what I mean? If it's fear of rejection over an idea, how will you get a yes if you never ask? I'm sorry to rant, but I'm just frustrated. I want to collaborate and communicate. To at least hear a photogs thoughts on working with me, not just 'you have a great look', and so I can return the same. Discuss variations, maybe find a whole new tangent has sprung from this discussion, then find more at the actual shoot. That's the best part... starting out with one thing then find it's winded it way somewhere else. This is very long winded, I'm sorry again. I'll stop now. Aug 07 06 11:56 pm Link Some photographers are very protective of their ideas and are scared that you'll steal them. Aug 08 06 12:04 am Link wirehead arts wrote: I agree with that. Look at the photographer's port. It usually hints you on foundations of thoughts from which his/her ideas may spawn. Aug 08 06 12:15 am Link I can understand being protective... but how productive can it be to be so secretive? I'll share my ideas, but I alos know that there is no such thing as an orginal idea. There's who does it first and/or how many variations are there. Aug 08 06 12:20 am Link If a model kicks back that they are interested ill give them an idea of what I would love to use them for..I dont lay it all out...im not too scared of someone stealing my idea..every concept or theme has been done to death..lol..and they may project or see it differently from me. At the same time I ask if they have any ideas that they are wanting to add to their port..etc..common courtesy I geuss Aug 08 06 12:22 am Link I'll be interested in responses on this. As I'm the same way. Maybe I'm not really a photog at all. As I don't see models as "models" , but as women. I love women. I love discovering who they can become when we collaborate. I seek the actor in models, so maybe I'm really shooting a movie, with no dialogue, one character, and whatever wardrobe she happens to bring along. This is very confusing. There was a time when photographers observed and recorded "reality". at least their version of reality. Now it seem primarily about design. And personality is of secondary importance. Anyway when a model asks what my ideas are for her- I rarely have any- till i really understand WHO she is. Just my way of doing this stuff, as an exploration. Aug 08 06 12:32 am Link DezLand Studios wrote: I'm happy with discuss things after mutual interest is declared. It's after I check out their work and say that I am interested, like their work and would love to hear their ideas and get nothing back that frustrates me so. Aug 08 06 12:34 am Link I like to see what the model herself would like to do, first... instead of trying to mold her into something specific; I like to work as a team. If you say, I've always wanted to do A, B, and C, I'll say, how about B with this variation on the theme? I guess I've always thought the model might want to choose what to do for a change, at least for the first shoot (always pretty much a testing each other out shoot for me); and if we work well together, then I'll say, hey, you'd look good doing this or this, what do you think? And so on. Aug 08 06 01:01 am Link J Schumacher wrote: I agree. For a first TFCD/test shoot with a new (to me) model, I like to hear what the model is thinking, before I suggest much. I am particularly good at "springboarding" off models' ideas and making them even better. This approach also allows me to determine a particular model's boundaries and limits, which I NEVER violate...period! If there are certain photos in my portfolio she likes, that is a good place to start. Aug 08 06 01:05 pm Link I'm a little guilty of this. I do have a general look I am going for when I approach a model. I approach the model because I think she can do that look. But I really don't have a specific idea that I want to shoot. Not till I get to work with her once, do my ideas really come out. My first shoot with a model I tend to be all over the place trying multiple things. My second shoot with a model is directed and really productive. I've got a better idea of the person and can come up with ideas that I think work best for that person. Aug 08 06 01:29 pm Link Seeing the model's port tells me how she photographs ... meeting up with her is what starts the real ideas flowing - OR not, if she's not what I thought her to be like. Her current hair color and style may not match what was on her site. That affects everything. Her personal attitude/style affects everything ... I tend to flow with the model's energy - active shots for high energy 'girls' ... quiet beauty shots for those that tend to look good just sitting there. I have pre-conceived ideas, but meeting up can easily change that. Also, during the shoot itself, the ideas tend to shift depending on the flow of how things are going. I might start out wanting to do a high energy action shot, but if the weather somehow puts everyone in a low key mood - then I adapt to that. Aug 08 06 01:33 pm Link You have recieved some good responses. I am pretty much the same way. With most models I like to get a better feel of her personality and views of related subject matter I shoot before dwelling on details. I shoot a lot of weird thing and I have tons of ideas I may want to pitch but sometimes when I meet or talk to a model I see something in her which sparks a whole new direction. After viewing your port and reading your port, I have a fairly good idea where your head is at and I would not have much of a problem thinking you would not be receptive to one of my ideas. Most model's profiles do not give me that feeling. Aug 08 06 02:32 pm Link Great thread. To help the photog out, I usually ask a few specific questions: Jewelry, yes or no? Nail Polish, yes or no? Location? Studio? Colors? ~Keeper Aug 08 06 02:55 pm Link I'm probably guilty of that to some extent. What's funny to me is I've had just the opposite.... I've had models contact me for a shoot, then when I ask them what they have in mind they're suprised I don't have a concept ready that would be suitable for them. Guess it goes both ways. It is fustrating. I particular model that I've been wanting to shoot forever wants to shoot with me, but I'm having creative block right now. I just can't think of a concept I want to shoot at the moment, so there's no point in getting all the "stuff" out. It's a drag! Aug 08 06 03:00 pm Link James Johnson wrote: What He Said! Aug 09 06 04:25 pm Link At times I'm looking to do TFP to update my portfolio and will send a fairly general email stating that and what specific styles I'm looking for. If a model replies back, that's step one, if she actually calls me, thats step two and if she shows up on time and ready to shoot, we're on the way to a great working relationship. Most models that are true professionals aren't flakey...they show up on time, communicate professionally and know that my time is just as valuable as theirs. I try to hold up to these same values. Sometimes I have a specific scene, topic or plan in mind...sometimes I'm more creative when I shoot from the hip. (figuratively) Aug 09 06 04:33 pm Link I'm kind of all over the place. Sometimes I contact someone with an epic novel detailing exactly what I want to do, because something about them or a deadline for a project has me knowing exactly what I want. Other times I am simply captivated by the model him/herself, and am interested in seeing what happens when I'm in the same room with them. I know, good photographers are "supposed" to be able to always pre-visualize, but I can't always. Sometimes magic happens when two people get together and create on the spot. Besides, I do a lot of portraiture and figure work, and that's not exactly concept-heavy stuff. That's more about seeing what kind of emotion can be teased out during our time together. Can't really be predicted for me, only hoped for with crossed fingers. Aug 09 06 04:44 pm Link I think that many of the models that are concerned with a concept should worry about getting the basics covered well first. I see it here a lot..lots of really bad shots of models with swords, or angel wings, on a car, or in a cemetary etc. FWIW I've done much of that myself, but sometimes the execution of the concepts is so poor that maybe many of us just should work on improving (which 90% of the ppl here need) the basic lighting and poses. I know its not very exciting to stand in front of a backdrop over and over, but for many of us here on MM I think there is lots of room for improvement there...so in my case when I speak to models and they ask for concepts, usually my answers are so nebulous I can hear the silence on the end of the phone..  At the other end are the models who look at my work, like it and just want to shoot..they don't need no stinkin concepts..they know there is a high probability they will get something they like (hopefully). So, anyway, thats how I work currently..I'm not saying its the best way or anything, but just an explanation for why maybe I don't concern myself with concepts for models too much at this juncture. Also, I have what I guess you would call concepts for light and composition but when I've talked to models about this, most just get bleary eyed. In my case for much of what I'm currently trying to do the model does end up being a prop for many of the shots. Many of my visualizations are about a particular nook and cranny in a room, and a particular light on it etc..sometimes the model is just there as human interest in an overall composition. Very tough to explain this to them.. Aug 09 06 04:48 pm Link It's everbody. If I contact a model to shoot I always lay out two or three of the ideas I have in mind once I've confirmed that they are interested in shooting, but a lot of photogs don't think that far ahead. But the same holds true for models. That's my biggest pet peeve. I hate when models contact me asking to work with me and then shove the buck over to me to handle all the logistics for the shoot (for TFP, as far as paid work is concerned I don't care if you expect me to lay out every pose for you as long as you pay me). It's irritating as hell to have someone contact you and have no idea WHAT they would like to get out of an exchange with you. Aug 09 06 04:48 pm Link It's because we don't know what in the hell we are gonna do. Psssst...show me your boobies and it might help me get some ideas....  Aug 09 06 04:52 pm Link Sometimes I'll ask to hear a model's ideas so that I can get an idea of what they are interested in and comfortable shooting so that I can come up with concepts which will work well with them. I've fouund that if either model or photographer tries to "cut accross the grain" so to speek then both parties end up feeling uncomfortable. This is an issue for me because I tend to work with people who are artists themselves, but I also have listed loosely developed concepts on my portfolio, but it becomes tedius after a while, as a different model will always work best with a different idea and there is no way to list as many ideas as there are models to possibly work with. I tend to ask what someone is comfortable with and what they have for wardrobe, and fit lighting, setting, stylistic, propping to that model, rather than searching for a model to fit a combination of technical elements which in my opinion is backward unless the shoot is purely fine-art. I've also had a great many number of cases where I've come up with very specific ideas (within preconcieved general concepts) only after meeting a model and starting to shoot and "reading" them for their stylistic tendencies Just an explaination of my opinions..... Ryan Entwistle - Photographer re: photography Aug 09 06 05:02 pm Link J Schumacher wrote: I don't do that at all. Something that some of you on here have to take into consideration. everyone is different. Some models expect the photographer to give direction, (I've seen this topic addressed on here) and others want to put their own ideas into a project. Aug 09 06 05:21 pm Link Tiia Something wrote: It is because their idea is to get you to take your clothes off and they haven't worked out the details farther than that. Aug 09 06 06:01 pm Link This really is just sales 101: 1. Listen before you talk so you know the customer's needs, limits, interests, and hot-button issues. 2. Don't negotiate over email or IM. Non-verbal cues are non-existent and emoticons only help a tiny bit. And it's really frickin' slow. Telephone is better by far, and a go-see is the ideal scenario. 3. Most customers can't absorb technical details quickly. Don't brain-dump on them, it's a waste of time, they either won't read it or won't be able to retain it all at once. 4. Selling a specific concept looks desperate. Sell yourself instead and let the concept come after that. Most importantly, I don't have one idea for a shoot. Like a chef, I have a bunch of ideas of varying quality and complexity floating around in my head. My goal with a planning meeting/call isn't to sell my steak idea only to find the customer is a vegetarian. Instead, I use the meeting to negotiate parameters, then draw from ideas that fit within that framework. Granted, there are plenty of idea-less photographers and we all have occasional blocks, but don't assume that a non-detailed email is a reflection of the photographer's creative depth. Aug 09 06 06:43 pm Link Okay... this might hurt me but here it is; I'm not good at ideas. I am however good at expanding on an idea. The conversation helps me. I think what holds me back on the ideas is the pressure to do something "new". Another thing is finding cool new (to me) locations and accessablity to props and wardrobes and such. I can come up with ideas but I don't have the funds or the know how to support it. I want to do something extraordinary and the plain old same locations seem so blah to me. Once I get behind the camera I see things but the pressure of a cool idea kills me in the beginning. There it is... the truth. Aug 09 06 08:06 pm Link Some photographers are highly protective of their ideas, often for good reason. Some photographers are poor at verbal communication. Some photographrs are a bit paranoid, often for good reason. Some photographers are just dumb shits. Aug 09 06 08:10 pm Link phcorcoran wrote: Ooo, I like that idea. I'm gonna try it out. Aug 09 06 08:14 pm Link re- photography wrote: Exactly! (at least for me). I have an ever growing list of ideas, but I always like to get input from the model so that we end up shooting stuff we're both interested in. I have no problem pitching ideas when asked... I just like a sense of which ones may interest the model first. Aug 09 06 08:17 pm Link I have communicated with a couple of models, then sent them my ideas, and never heard from them again. My work is very far from any blatant sexuality, but if you mention the word sexy or sex appeal some models freeze in their boots.. I think this is a sign of immaturity as a model. This can make some photographers a little gunshy with ideas. Aug 09 06 08:30 pm Link Tiia Something wrote: i know... i should read the whole thread... but i don't have time... so i'll address the original question.. Aug 09 06 08:37 pm Link This is an interesting thread because I'm finding out just how differently photographers prepare for a shoot proving that there is no 'right' way to do this. I come the side of the spectrum that knows pretty much what I want to do before I ever approach a model. I know the location, I know the colors, the props and the 'theme' of the shoot before I make the first contact. I literally try to find the right model for the shoot but a lot of my energy is wasted because you can't tell which models will respond and which contacts will get ignored. Aug 10 06 02:18 am Link If I approach someone, I have a pretty clear idea of what I want to do. Often, I will have a sketch of the general idea or a written concept. That is presented to the model to see if that person is willing to perform the idea. I am not good with "spontaneous" Aug 10 06 05:57 am Link wirehead arts wrote: Well you just have to take a look at all the images of Models pulling down their panties, or Models leaning up against a wall with their ass protruding out....Or Angel Wings...Or... Aug 10 06 08:11 am Link |
