UnoMundo Photography wrote:
Never kill anyone's dream !

How are you killing their dream by honestly discussing options?  Especially if you are a photographer making their living in the area, wouldn't it makes sense to share with the model a slice of reality?

KM von Seidl wrote:

How are you killing their dream by honestly discussing options?  Especially if you are a photographer making their living in the area, wouldn't it makes sense to share with the model a slice of reality?

Most people take advice that reinforces their self image and desires.
When faced with opposite advice they usually call the adviser a pompous ass and ignore them.

Fluffytek wrote:

Most people take advice that reinforces their self image and desires.
When faced with opposite advice they usually call the adviser a pompous ass and ignore them.

That's their perogative.  But at least you have shared your experience in the industry rather than just taken the dough.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
Never kill anyone's dream !

You don't need to, the World will.

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
Never kill anyone's dream !

What's wrong with waking someone up?

Dreaming alone won't accomplish anything outside of the dreamworld!

Christine Summers wrote:
Personally, I would appreciate the honesty because it would give me direction and I wouldn't be paying for the wrong kind of shoot, as beautiful as the pics may turn out.  But that would also be free advice, and you may lose the money you would get.  And if you tell her she's not a fashion model she might get offended or something, which would be a waste of effort.  I guess it depends on the person.

... which would also mean that the model doesn't have what it takes to survive the industry (yet?!).

Pretty much every fashionmodel, even high fashion are being rejected at soo many casting calls... everytime another girl is picked... they weren't.

This means: "We don't want you, we want HER!"

It's just how it is.

Fluffytek wrote:
I see it like this.

If the girl says "I want you to shoot me some fashion shots to take to an agency because I want to be a model". You shoot and charge.

If she says, "Do you think I have what it takes to be fashion model?" then you tell her what you think, but let her decide if she wants the shots.

In the first, she wants your services, not your advice. In the seconds she wants both. I have found that when someone asks me to do a job they generally dont want my opinion they want my skills. (Tourist: How do I get to the station, Yokle: Well you dont want to start from here!)

Now if she asks for the shoot and there is no way you can do it, then you cant offer your services so you should not shoot.

Or maybe you need a disclamer (sp?)
"I will only shoot models if I find that they meet my requirements of what I understand to be current marketability in the industry."

Okay, in reading Tony's scenario I took it to mean that the assumption was that 1) you are an actual fashion photographer, not someone who thinks that shooting people in clothes = fashion and 2) that you are familiar, competent, working  in the arena.

And a 5'5" girl with a glamour body walks through your door.  Okay, so how harmful is it, when finding out what kind of work she wants and why (i.e. tailoring the shoot to her needs), that you share with her how you see her look based on your trained experience.   You don't have to be a drama queen and run a disclaimer, "I won't shoot you unless you're a sure thing," but you're simply sharing part of your skills set and knowledge base with another human.  How hard is that?

Or is getting money in your fist no matter what, the bigger picture for some of you?

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
You guys would have discouraged Beverly Johnson, the first plus sized model, the first model daring to be different.

Do you have Beverly's stats handy?

UdoR wrote:

Do you have Beverly's stats handy?

I meant that in 1972 she would have been discouraged as "not the type"

Ransom J wrote:
Shooting a short girl in fashion styling that SHE requested (without asking for YOUR input on whether or not she should try to do fashion modeling) isn't "encouraging" her to become a fashion model.

That's like saying that Wal Mart shouldn't sell bats to 400 lb men because they'll never make it as a pro ball player.

If she asks give your honest opinion, if the conversation meanders around to the subject of whether or not she'll be a successful fashion model, give your honest opinion.  But if she requests the shoot and never asks for your opinion, keep it to yourself.

there is a difference between wanting to be shot in a fashion style and believing that you will be a fashion model.  i am referring to the latter, which is actually more prevalent than the former.

but as someone mentioned, simply shooting a girl in clothing does not make a fashion photograph, just like dressing a 400lb man in a baseball uniform doesn't make him a baseball player.  however, more often than not, the 400 lb man doesn't have delusions of becoming the next jose canseco.  he just wants to go to the batting cage.

but we are discussing ethics, not shooting style.

so -- let's say a girl wants to get some surgery done and approaches a doctor.  she doesn't ask him for his opinion nor does she care for it, but just wants to pay outright for the procedure.  wouldn't it be unethical for the doctor to just keep it to himself and pocket the money?

but why are you already washing your hands clean of the situation if you didn't have any qualms about it to begin with?

Sean Armenta wrote:

there is a difference between wanting to be shot in a fashion style and believing that you will be a fashion model.  i am referring to the latter, which is actually more prevalent than the former.

but as someone mentioned, simply shooting a girl in clothing does not make a fashion photograph, just like dressing a 400lb man in a baseball uniform doesn't make him a baseball player.  however, more often than not, the 400 lb man doesn't have delusions of becoming the next jose canseco.  he just wants to go to the batting cage.

but we are discussing ethics, not shooting style.

so -- let's say a girl wants to get some surgery done and approaches a doctor.  she doesn't ask him for his opinion nor does she care for it, but just wants to pay outright for the procedure.  wouldn't it be unethical for the doctor to just keep it to himself and pocket the money?

but why are you already washing your hands clean of the situation if you didn't have any qualms about it to begin with?

We are photographers, not doctors, our work doesn't risk life or limb so we aren't held to the same ethical standard.  In all reality, our work caters to the most base  of our selfish desires (vanity) WITHOUT the health risk of surgery or the like.  A photograph of ANY kind is unecessary (people don't NEED them, they WANT them), so any time ANYBODY is commanding your services they are doing so without NEEDING them.  So the question of ethics  in comparrision to a Doctor who can injure, render sick/ lame or even kill a patient by giving them something unecessary isn't applicable. Therefore  I see the parallel you are trying to make but don't find them analogous enough to have any merit.

Ethics wise it's STILL not a problem.  Again is wal mart ethically wrong for offering baseball bats to any delusional overweight armchair McGwire?  I should say not.  Wal Mart doesn't care if you want to swing for the big leagues or if you're swatting a few with your son for some bonding time, fact is they have bats for sale and if you want one you can buy one.

And what am I washing my hands of?  You lost me with that statement.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
Never kill anyone's dream !

kill their dog instead.

Ransom J wrote:

We are photographers, not doctors, our work doesn't risk life or limb so we aren't held to the same ethical standard.  In all reality, our work caters to the most base  of our selfish desires (vanity) WITHOUT the health risk of surgery or the like.  A photograph of ANY kind is unecessary (people don't NEED them, they WANT them), so any time ANYBODY is commanding your services they are doing so without NEEDING them.  So the question of ethics  in comparrision to a Doctor who can injure, render sick/ lame or even kill a patient by giving them something unecessary isn't applicable. Therefore  I see the parallel you are trying to make but don't find them analogous enough to have any merit.

Ethics wise it's STILL not a problem.  Again is wal mart ethically wrong for offering baseball bats to any delusional overweight armchair McGwire?  I should say not.  Wal Mart doesn't care if you want to swing for the big leagues or if you're swatting a few with your son for some bonding time, fact is they have bats for sale and if you want one you can buy one.

And what am I washing my hands of?  You lost me with that statement.

This is why I would trust Sean Armenta with money, life & wife before ever I would trust you Ransom.

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

JAY carreon wrote:

This is why I would trust Sean Armenta with money, life & wife before ever I would trust you Ransom.

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Well being that I don't know you from a hole in the wall I think that's probably for the best

Ransom J wrote:

Well being that I don't know you from a hole in the wall I think that's probably for the best

Well Ransom let me fill you in a little bit......Jay is a great, decent, honest, ethical, moral man with a heart of gold and any person who knows Jay is lucky to call him a friend!

All the best,
Britt

Brittney Harrington wrote:

Well Ransom let me fill you in a little bit......Jay is a great, decent, honest, ethical, moral man with a heart of gold and any person who knows Jay is lucky to call him a friend!

All the best,
Britt

I don't doubt it

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Do you take her money and shoot her
the best you can in your style?   Do you explain that your style of photography isn't one that may help her.  Is it your responsiblity at any
level to explain anything?

If you had an apparel client who was currently selling tons of garments to Sears and wants to dump a ton on money into marketing and hire you for fashion images so that they can move into Neiman-Marcus, are you going to turn them down because because you don't think they quality or style of their garments is what Neiman-Marcus is looking for?   Do you have the background in fashion and marketing to know in one or two meetings how and individual or company will fare in the market or how hard they will pursue their goal.  Furthermore, if the market determains that they will not acheive their ultimate goal are you sure that fashion images will not have other benefits even in the market they are currently in?

I believe that the obligation in that situation is to: first take the best shots you are able to, and second offer advice if the model is interested in hearing it.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Okay, in reading Tony's scenario I took it to mean that the assumption was that 1) you are an actual fashion photographer, not someone who thinks that shooting people in clothes = fashion and 2) that you are familiar, competent, working  in the arena.

That seems like a good assumption to make for the sake of discussion, but in this particular "real world" it isn't a valid one.  A high percentage of the photographers here (and on any other model listing site) do "model portfolio" work, and are happy to shoot "fashion pictures" for portfolios.  Few of them are capable of producing pictures that fashion agencies or clients would actually use.

If someone is not ethical enough (or knowledgeable enough) to know and say that they aren't capable of delivering what is requested, the chances of them being ethical or knowledgeable enough to give competent advice to a model isn't very great either.  This seems to me to be a conversation in a bubble, hermetically sealed off from reality.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
However is it a moral or ethical
failing or is it the way the world works?

Any reason why it can't be both?

TXPhotog wrote:
That seems like a good assumption to make for the sake of discussion, but in this particular "real world" it isn't a valid one.  A high percentage of the photographers here (and on any other model listing site) do "model portfolio" work, and are happy to shoot "fashion pictures" for portfolios.  Few of them are capable of producing pictures that fashion agencies or clients would actually use.

If someone is not ethical enough (or knowledgeable enough) to know and say that they aren't capable of delivering what is requested, the chances of them being ethical or knowledgeable enough to give competent advice to a model isn't very great either.  This seems to me to be a conversation in a bubble, hermetically sealed off from reality.

Yes, I was careful to lay out my assumptions before answering, if you note.

The reason, because only with that skills set and background  I laid out does one proceed the way I suggested.

My assumption is that most of the people on this site  (models MUAs photographers) are either doing or wanting to do their work commercially.  The percentage of amateurs wanting to stay as such is pretty small.   Now, how many of MM will actually actualize their dreams of commercial success, I have no idea, and probably no one really knows.

BUT, what I do suspect, is that when money is involved, ethics get fudged.

I don't think many are going to be critically analyzing whether they have the goods to be taking money from people (i.e. helping them attain their goal).    Why?   Just look at how many photographers are charging for "portfolio" development and then look at their portfolios.

To be accurate, I have no problem with photographers charging.  I've done it.  But it wasn't anything I wasn't capable of doing, nor were there any illusions as to what the work was for. 

Personally, I think that before you start taking peoples $$ you should approach it like any sales venture.  With the approach that you treat someone else how you would like to be treated.   If there was a disaster, and you were a store owner and some person came into the store, holding a flashlight needing "D"batteries, and all you had were "D's" but they were severely out of date and not likely to work really well and you sold those to them, then I think that's lame.