Tony Lawrence wrote:
It has less to do with the so called quality of your work then with the lack of serious models on this site.

I don't think that's a fair generalization.  I have had excellent luck with the models from this website, and they have ALL been prompt, professional, and enthusiastic about their work.

Photos By JDS wrote:
Your problem is simple. You are looking for models to shoot but your port has non models in it. Even as a beginner you should be very selective who you shoot TFP.

My portfolio is filled with non-models, and it's gotten me plenty of models to shoot with.

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:

I don't think that's a fair generalization.  I have had excellent luck with the models from this website, and they have ALL been prompt, professional, and enthusiastic about their work.

While you may have been lucky with the models here and you also have solid
work many of the models here are not serious and mostly time wasters.  Not
all mind you but look around and read all the no show, no call posts from shooters.
Many of whom are serious and talented.  I believe it to be a fair generalization.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Iona is multitalented.  She is shooting web content for that website.  She also posed about 100 images in the new book "Digital Boudior Photography" by John G. Blair.

Thanks. I never would have figured that out had you not told me (& no, that isn't sarcasm...the print version could go either way).

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Paying might mean getting models to show up though.  There are some photographers here who really should invest in better models.  They've got great ideals and cool locations but the models they are using aren't models.

That's exactly it though- you want someone to show up and shoot, offer money. It's the most simplistic concept on this site. I think the OP SHOULD invest in better models, or invest in models at all. The good ones want money or at least a tear sheet (IMHO). It's so effing easy. If you offer money, they will come.

phcorcoran wrote:
My experience with Model Mayhem and other Internet modeling sites is that money scares away models faster than nudity will.  When I post for TFP nudity I get more responses than when I advertised paid clothed modeling.  In my profile I write that I sometimes hire models and sometimes offer TFP, and I get more inquiries from models looking for TFP shoots than for paid shoots.

Interesting, the reverse is true for me. Oh well.

Ed Stevenson wrote:
Even when models just have the cell pics, look at the style, complement them on it and explain how you can do it in such a way that will make them look good.

Just be careful with this! I've only been doing this for a few months now but some of the first images I posted were complete crap. I knew it. In fact my 7 year old daughter took one...lol! (Its still up by the way) But I would get such a kick out of how many photogs would compliment them or critique what the photog should have done differently. It was a good laugh and I gladly passed the info on to my daughter:) But my point is, the comments made weren't taken seriously for a number of reasons. It is always better to compliment the model's look, eyes, ability, potential etc, etc, then to comment on a specific pic in my opinion. But don't go overboard! There's been a number of times when I can't tell if the photog wants to date me or shoot me. Flattering, but it won't get you a shoot.

Second, always try to firm up a date right from the start. Excessive emails can cause any model to flake out. Make sure you close the sale! Also try to book the date as close as possible. It gives the model less time to change her mind, come up with excuses, etc etc... (sales, recruiting trick)

And finally, never take anything personally. Models may not respond, follow up or follow through but in many cases this has nothing to do with you. It could mean a number of things including personal issues, mental issues or whatever. As with modeling, a big part of photography has to do with dealing with rejection. Don't let it stop you from showing the world what you got:)

Tony Lawrence wrote:

While you may have been lucky with the models here and you also have solid
work many of the models here are not serious and mostly time wasters.  Not
all mind you but look around and read all the no show, no call posts from shooters.
Many of whom are serious and talented.  I believe it to be a fair generalization.

Okay, I swear I'm going to finish hijacking this thread after I post this, but I feel it's important to say.  We see those threads all the time because the squeaky wheel gets the oil, as it were.  People aren't going to come on the boards and rant about the seven successful shoots they had this week.  They're going to vent their frustration with the one that didn't work out.  I'd venture to guess that there are far more successful shoots set up through this site than no-call/no-shows.  That's just not what we hear about. 

/hijack

Daniela V wrote:

That's exactly it though- you want someone to show up and shoot, offer money. It's the most simplistic concept on this site. I think the OP SHOULD invest in better models, or invest in models at all. The good ones want money or at least a tear sheet (IMHO). It's so effing easy. If you offer money, they will come.

Here's my point.  You are a great looking model but shooting you while a improvment over his other models isn't going to net him really better images based
on his level of creative vision and ideals.  I'm not suggesting he isn't a good photographer mind you.  I think investing in paying a model is when a photographer
has reached a point where friends, family and the girl next door isn't working anymore.  At that point shooting a pro level model is great.  Sort of like having
a Nikon D-200.  Its simply too much camera for a new photographer and one that
instead of being user friendly might prove too hard to work with.  Once you've
reached a certain level of skill then a better model or camera are wonderfull.
You only need two solid models at that point.  One thing though as I also said
his work really isn't the problem its the lack of serious and dependable models.
He's talking to intrested models who just don't follow through.  Why they
don't may mean he has more of a problem with marketing or communication or...
gasp, most of the models are full of sh%^.

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:
I'd venture to guess that there are far more successful shoots set up through this site than no-call/no-shows.  That's just not what we hear about. 
/hijack

I wouldn't bet my milk money on that if I were you Cowboy....

Between flakey TFP's and Flakey gwc's, there is so much Tom Foolery taking place daily that it may surprise were we to be able measure and monitor such activities.

It's usually the "aw-w-w shucks" witty little men with cameras that are advocates of the tfp-tfcd, nudes and such, often the models get creeped out before the shoot andd end up bailing, creating a no show status.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Sort of like having a Nikon D-200.  Its simply too much camera for a new photographer and one that instead of being user friendly might prove too hard to work with.  Once you've reached a certain level of skill then a better model or camera are wonderfull.
You only need two solid models at that point.  One thing though as I also said
his work really isn't the problem its the lack of serious and dependable models.
He's talking to intrested models who just don't follow through.  Why they
don't may mean he has more of a problem with marketing or communication or...
gasp, most of the models are full of sh%^.

Thank you Tony...well said. And thanks to everyone that has replied. All good points and a lot of useful information.

I think along the lines of starting from the ground up. In this situation, being a self proclaimed beginner, I am trying to start with beginner models...people who are closer to the same level of experience as me. I look for people who appear to be serious without the attitude that could at least use some good quality photos in their portfolio (to replace the cell phone shots, out of focus shots, shots, shots with color balance so far off it looks like a Peter Max poster, etc.). I figure I would start there and gain some comfort and experience, develop a style then build up  from there. Wrong approach?

rachelrose wrote:
if you just hire a great model or two and a great stylist team, you will cut out a lot of time that you could be wasting testing with all the amatuer models who who might or might now (probably not) get good shots of. just hire a great team and cut out the middle man, once you have some killer shots of great models- YOU will be bombarded with people who want to work with you.

Again all thats AFTER you develop a style and a vision for yourself.  Lets say
he did as you suggests.  Models see his work and go WOW!  Now they expect
those same kind of results but he dosen't have the stylist and MUA.  So its
back to bussiness as usual.  One of my friends was able to shoot Roshamba
years ago.  She was one of the first Black models in Sports Illustrated magazine.
The photos were average at best.  This was before her big break but she was
working in Chicago.  He had no strong concept or ideals and the images showed
that.  So in this case having a paid model would have been pointless.  Learn
how to shoot first then spend money if needed on all the support staff including
a beautifull model but understand if something isn't working how to correct it.
Learn about light and how to shape and work with it.  Learn what outfits, etc
work well for certain models and their figures.  Have a concept or vision of what
you want to do rather then let me shoot some shots at the beach.   I
think there are lots of photographers here including me who would benefit by
working with a stylist and better models.

RCB Photography wrote:

Thank you Tony...well said. And thanks to everyone that has replied. All good points and a lot of useful information.

I think along the lines of starting from the ground up. In this situation, being a self proclaimed beginner, I am trying to start with beginner models...people who are closer to the same level of experience as me. I look for people who appear to be serious without the attitude that could at least use some good quality photos in their portfolio (to replace the cell phone shots, out of focus shots, shots, shots with color balance so far off it looks like a Peter Max poster, etc.). I figure I would start there and gain some comfort and experience, develop a style then build up  from there. Wrong approach?

You are on target all the way!  While its nice to shoot expirenced models and you
may get better images simply because they are attractive.  Are they going
to be more attractive for example then the beautifull Toni in your current port?
(I love the name, Tony) The answer is no.  They may be more confident and
poised.  You are going in the right direction and trust me you will find serious
and attractive models to shoot.  Once you've gone as far as you can with those
models then consider paying a model.  One thing I would suggest.  Have the
models go to a mall make-up artist and have their make-up done.  Expirment
with lighting and try some new things.  Once your paying a model you want to
be past most of your learning curve.  I want to be clear on this there is nothing
wrong with paying a model but you want to get exactlly what you want and need
from doing that.  At this point it could be a waste of $$$

Farenell Photography wrote:
Thanks. I never would have figured that out had you not told me (& no, that isn't sarcasm...the print version could go either way).

I was in contact with her the other day, she told me about it and gave me a link.
If you look to the left, thats Iona.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Again all thats AFTER you develop a style and a vision for yourself.  Lets say
he did as you suggests.  Models see his work and go WOW!  Now they expect
those same kind of results but he dosen't have the stylist and MUA.  So its
back to bussiness as usual.  One of my friends was able to shoot Roshamba
years ago.  She was one of the first Black models in Sports Illustrated magazine.
The photos were average at best.  This was before her big break but she was
working in Chicago.  He had no strong concept or ideals and the images showed
that.  So in this case having a paid model would have been pointless.  Learn
how to shoot first then spend money if needed on all the support staff including
a beautifull model but understand if something isn't working how to correct it.
Learn about light and how to shape and work with it.  Learn what outfits, etc
work well for certain models and their figures.  Have a concept or vision of what
you want to do rather then let me shoot some shots at the beach.   I
think there are lots of photographers here including me who would benefit by
working with a stylist and better models.

I am saying that having great shots in your book will up his chances of other models, make-up artists, stylists, etc... want to work with him. But as you said, it wont do  lick of good if the photos suck. I assumed that he already had a vision for the images. But what good is it going to do a model to shoot with somebody who has no idea what they are doing? I am going to have to agree and say practive on friends and family until you get it right. Because it's not fair to waste anybody's time.

KM von Seidl wrote:
3) Like flies to shit or bees to flowers, people are often attracted to what they perceive to be a popular choice.

3) If you can't find a friendly glamour photographer in your area that is willing to share (sometimes these guys fancy themselves "model managers" and treat models like their own personal photographic harem), see if you can find 2 or three other photographers willing to pool $$ together to hire models to develop your portfolio.  Obviously you want to get the best looking women you can, since glamour seems to be about that.

I love it...  these are the same guys who deem legitimate managers as pimps and make idiotic statements like; "If a model has representation, i don't shoot them"...

As for Mr Olan Mills here, forgedda about it...this dude ain't gonna pay a model, he'll sell out to confusion and rationalize why paying is not good idea. Even as a youngman in high school, my new shiney Nikkormat proudly hanging around my neck, i knew that using a an oil painting backdrop and and posing a couple in front of it wasn't the most creative of way of doing things.

phcorcoran wrote:

I don't make my living from photographing models.  Not all of us are fashion photographers.  I make money from portrait and event photography.  Most of the models I hire are for nude art print sales.

I do sometimes get jobs that call for commercial models, but in those cases I can't hunt for models on the Internet.  I have to use models who I already know, models whose cell phone numbers are already in my address book along side what days of the week they are reliably available.  Paying work won't wait for emails. 

Commercial work is a whole different situation from what the OP is asking about.

I don't consider myself a "commercial model" and I get paid for most of my shoots. Most of the photographers that pay me don't do this for their jobs either, I seriously doubt they'd consider themselves to be "commercial photographers". They simply choose to compensate the models that they work with, and I have to say they have also been some of the nicest people I've had the pleasure of working with and for. Its a distinct choice, and doesn't neccessarily reflect what someone choses as their "day job."

Mia Ferreri wrote:
I sincerely believe that you get what you pay for in the modeling/photography business. If you pay nothing you take the chance of getting...that's right...nothing.

Paying a professional model at first may indeed take some $$ out of your pocket, but on the other hand, you may be able to learn something from someone who makes a living as a model while you are shooting them. Consider it taking a class in the relationship between model and photographer.

I agree with that statement, Mia.  However, if I am going to hire a professional model, I would do it with someone under contract at an agency with experience I can easily verify.  Not because there aren't some professional models on MM, but because if I am going to fork over cash I want some reasonable assurance of high-quality results. 

I would, however, pay a MM model BEFORE hiring an agency girl/guy, if and only if that MM model had worked with me in the past and I knew ahead of time that his/her performance in front of the camera would be worth the investment.  And, of course, the previous experience with that model would have come from TFCD work.

RCB Photography wrote:
I have been on this site for a few months now mostly as a lurker trying to learn from other people and their work. I am not just a GWC (at least I don't think so). I am serious about my photography.

I have contacted models here on MM that are in my area and state in their profile that they are just starting out and are looking for TFP. After some converstaion back and forth they just stop communicating. After having been kind, polite, sincere and helpful, I just don't get it. These are usually models that are just starting out (like I am in "people" photography) that have cell phone self portraits in their portfolios.

I am no pro at this, but i think I know how to produce a good photo. Has anyone else faced this problem? How can I get beyond this?

If you get into a conversation, nothing will probably happen since the model will eventually forget what was the topic. This is especially true with AOL users since you need to know how to "reply" and retain the previous message. Otherwise the prev message is gone. If you can't set the shoot within 2 emails, that means the model doesn't know what is a photo shoot or is not sure anyway.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Again all thats AFTER you develop a style and a vision for yourself.  Lets say
he did as you suggests.  Models see his work and go WOW!  Now they expect
those same kind of results but he dosen't have the stylist and MUA.  So its
back to bussiness as usual.  One of my friends was able to shoot Roshamba
years ago.  She was one of the first Black models in Sports Illustrated magazine.
The photos were average at best.  This was before her big break but she was
working in Chicago.  He had no strong concept or ideals and the images showed
that.  So in this case having a paid model would have been pointless.  Learn
how to shoot first then spend money if needed on all the support staff including
a beautifull model but understand if something isn't working how to correct it.
Learn about light and how to shape and work with it.  Learn what outfits, etc
work well for certain models and their figures.  Have a concept or vision of what
you want to do rather then let me shoot some shots at the beach.   I
think there are lots of photographers here including me who would benefit by
working with a stylist and better models.

I have dealt with this before. I was contacted by a guy to shoot. We planned an outdoor shoot and the day came and I arrived with my stuff, with my boyfriend who is also an amateur photographer along as well. The shoot progressed and ended up with the photographer being more and more furstrated with his shots. Turns out he only recently bought the prepacked camera and 2 lens setup, and a SB800 flash. The kicker was that my boyfriend ended up helping him out to get the technical things correct with the camera. Otherwise almost all the shots would have turned out entirely overblown. The guy was really nice, and we offered to help him more down the road if he was interested.

The hardest thing was that he had no idea what to *do* with me. I was just a pretty girl standing in the middle of the woods. That is the basis of a good image, but you have to actually have a vision of what you'd like to see to get the results that create an image that is something that someone would like to look at. The model doesn't make the image, the photographer does. So it is VERY important for a new photographer to study and learn the technical aspects, and work on creating images that are pleasing and have some sort of interest. Otherwise you simply end up blending in with all the other GWC's, which is the last thing that any photographer wants to do.

NC17 wrote:

I have dealt with this before. I was contacted by a guy to shoot. We planned an outdoor shoot and the day came and I arrived with my stuff, with my boyfriend who is also an amateur photographer along as well. The shoot progressed and ended up with the photographer being more and more furstrated with his shots. Turns out he only recently bought the prepacked camera and 2 lens setup, and a SB800 flash. The kicker was that my boyfriend ended up helping him out to get the technical things correct with the camera. Otherwise almost all the shots would have turned out entirely overblown. The guy was really nice, and we offered to help him more down the road if he was interested.

The hardest thing was that he had no idea what to *do* with me. I was just a pretty girl standing in the middle of the woods. That is the basis of a good image, but you have to actually have a vision of what you'd like to see to get the results that create an image that is something that someone would like to look at. The model doesn't make the image, the photographer does. So it is VERY important for a new photographer to study and learn the technical aspects, and work on creating images that are pleasing and have some sort of interest. Otherwise you simply end up blending in with all the other GWC's, which is the last thing that any photographer wants to do.

Thank you for this.  While investing in you was smart because he lacked a strong
vision of what to do and also lacked some basic skills his money could have
been wasted.  He was lucky your guy was so helpfull.  This makes me think about
some of our more well off members.  These people spend thousands on equipment
only to produce much of the mindless and sterile crap on this site.  If I never
see another thong in the air shot it will be too soon.  In America we often think
that the value of a thing is only determined by what it costs and thats not always
correct.  The key to this posters problem is to find willing models which he will
be able to do.  Once he's ready then a investment might be good ideal.