Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
Everyone has had been experiences with others. Some of us may have had a bad day that day or had something going on in our lives that made us act differently than normal (both photographers and models). There's also just the fact that sometimes me and a photographer may not mesh. We're all just people in the end and there's even been photographers that I had problems with, but we've "made up" so to speak and worked together again.

I don't share my bad stories and don't tell anyone who they should or shouldn't work with. That's not professional in any way, shape, or form. I'm always willing to working with someone again, unless I had to press criminal charges of course, which I've never had to do in the past five and a half years lol.

As for me, I'm on a million black lists, and that's ok. If people want to listen to others instead of coming to their own conclusions by working with me themselves or talking something out with me, nothing I can do about it. 

Myla, you sound like a very sensible and mature lady.  It is very true that we can all have our bad days! I don't care if you are on a billion black lists, I'd work with you if the opportunity was there! 

Posted by Christopher Wright: 
Man, I am gone the entire day and I miss a thread that was generated from Doug and my conversation. I honestly think it is very important for not only models to keep other models informed about photographers and photographers to keep other photographers informed but also models to keep photographers informed tooand vice a versa. Most photographers have a core of several models that they use more then once and those models have worked with other models so they can let a photographer know if they are good or not.

I have a shoot coming up with a model that I really have been wanting to work with but who normally only does paid shoots. But because a model I work with told me to contact her and use her name I now have a shoot lined up with her. As a photographer I tell the other photographers in this area that I have worked with a model and I think they might like to work with her or to possibly be careful of a particular model. I've also suggested to some models that they might want to get in touch with certain photographers because I think they have a look that another local photographer would want to work with. It's the exact reason why there is this forum to open the lines of communication so everyone might be able to benefit from that knowledge. Speech concluded, now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Chris

Yes, Chris ... that must have been an interesting and informative conversation!  I appreciate that you look at both the good and bad aspects of a "Black List" because it is important to know who is "good" to work with also! 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Person: "Hi, I'd like to open up a checking account"

Teller: "That's great! Have you ever banked with CAL-Fees-Up-The-Ying-Yang before?"

Person: "A long time ago, but that was when I was younger, dumber and full of cum. Your basic run-of-the-mill, fresh-off-the-grad-stage idiot."

Teller: "Well, why don't we get started by giving me your specifics. First and last name?"

Person: "Okay, my name is Pierre DeSuave, blah, blah, blah"

Teller: *looks up "Pierre DeSuave" and gets a list of people who are on the black list*

Teller: "I'm sorry Mr. DeSuave, but I'm afraid I can't open an account for you today"

Person: "Why not?!"

Teller: "Well, it appears that when you were a customer, you kinda-sorta had a way of bouncing checks and flirting with the pretty tellers. So, I'm sorry."

Person: "Um, okay. Pssh. Thanks anyway"

Teller: *watching customer leave the building* "...loser"

Person: *Puts Treasury check for $10,000 back into his wallet and goes to the check cashing place down the street.*

Joe, You don't know how many times that situation has come up!  LOL  I have opened checking accounts at some of the major banks only to close my account after getting hit with the nastiest service charges, and the poorest customer service imaginable!  Now I am a happy customer of one of the smaller banks that does not make me feel like "a number!" 

People DO change! Circumstances change!  Looks can be deceiving!  All these cliches are true!  I've known guys with money who will dress down to look poor just to see how differently will people react. It's a shameful thing how many people will treat others based on what they think the other person is "worth" to them.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
I guess my point is, why bother with a blacklist? People change, things change, situations change. If a blacklist could predict the future, then it would be worthwhile to me.

So I thought about it in a positive way. Do we really need a "Black List" or is it just an excuse to gossip about others? Why not talk about the positive experiences of working with someone? I thought about calling a positive list of people a "White List" but then that does not seem good either! Nothing is truly black and white, is it? Is it because most people are more interested in the "dirty laundry?"

Now where do I get the idea that people dig hearing the gory details of bad stuff but not the good? I had started a thread a while back encouraging folks to post about their positive experiences ... but it died off after a short time.

What had inspired me at the time was that a person who I had worked with had recently come back into my life. She saw me at some of my very worst times. We are renewing the friendship that I thought was completely irreparable and gone. It is a wonderful thing when that happens!

So let's start a "Rainbow List!" It means I'll give anyone a chance if they put in the effort too! Sure there are those who don't show up for work or are late. If it is a habit, they wont be working long! Also anyone who is a criminal should be on a list of sorts as that is very important for the protection of others! But let's not forget that we can all have a bad day and they we can change. It is a good thing when we can forgive and make amends!

Posted by Jack D Trute: 
The powerful of the earth--- the wise,  the good,
Fair forms,  and hoary seers of age past,
All in one mighty sepulchre.--The hills
Rock-ribb'd and ancient as the sun, --the vales
Stretching in pensive quietness between;
The venerable woods--rivers that move
In majesty,  and the complaining brooks
That make the meadows green;  and pour'd round all, 
Old ocean's grey adn melancholy waste-
Are but the solemn decorations all
Of the tomb of man

From Bryant which I take to mean.

I need a scratch and sniff list.

Jack, you know there are days when I get frustrated with people who don't listen or don't seem to care ... and that is when I appreciate a good dog!  I'll scratch your back, but I wont sniff ya!  LOL

Posted by Jack D Trute: 
The powerful of the earth--- the wise,  the good,
Fair forms,  and hoary seers of age past,
All in one mighty sepulchre.--The hills
Rock-ribb'd and ancient as the sun, --the vales
Stretching in pensive quietness between;
The venerable woods--rivers that move
In majesty,  and the complaining brooks
That make the meadows green;  and pour'd round all, 
Old ocean's grey adn melancholy waste-
Are but the solemn decorations all
Of the tomb of man

From Bryant which I take to mean.

I need a scratch and sniff list.

Dayyyyym! I'm impressed dawg! Really impressed.

Makes me wish "Bard" was one of the choices in the career pick list. "scratch and sniff list" ...too funny

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
...I rethink my thinking and it goes away!  That's the power of positive thinking!

Well said.

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
!  I'll scratch your back, but I wont sniff ya!  LOL

Look weirdo hither your attempts to be weird.

Come lovely and soothing death,
Undulate round the world,  serenly arriving,  arriving,
In the day,  in the night,  to all,  to each, 
Sooner or later delicate poop flies out my butt.

A slight change of Walt Whitman. 

Now clean it up,  cook my dinner for Alpo doth cross my tongue,  then rub my tummy.

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
Sure there are those who don't show up for work or are late. If it is a habit, they wont be working long!

I can't tell if you're saying conversations are good, just tuck them away if they're bad, or if you'd rather not know the bad.  If the former, you might likely work with the bad seeds anyway, but perhaps only once if they hurt your shoot too?  If the latter, well, this is how the bad seeds keep working.  Those bad seeds must be having a lot of bad days!  They are being allowed and encouraged to continue having bad days at the expense of client, crew, and resulting shoot.

Sorry, but I want to know the bad things.  If it happened once, well there may be circumstances, but if feedback from various sources comes in the same way, you can bet I won't work with these people if I have any say in the matter.  But if no one shares the negative feedback, those late and no-show people keep working.

If these people were rep'd by an agent, you'd tell the agent if something went wrong.  Depending on the circumstances, in many cases, that agent will drop them.  If the circumstances are really bad, that agent will inform other agents, and that person simply won't work through any agencies again - at least in that market.  And freelance work typically isn't as good as the work provided by agents.

Posted by EmElle: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
Sure there are those who don't show up for work or are late. If it is a habit, they wont be working long!

I can't tell if you're saying conversations are good, just tuck them away if they're bad, or if you'd rather not know the bad.  If the former, you might likely work with the bad seeds anyway, but perhaps only once if they hurt your shoot too?  If the latter, well, this is how the bad seeds keep working.  Those bad seeds must be having a lot of bad days!  They are being allowed and encouraged to continue having bad days at the expense of client, crew, and resulting shoot.

Sorry, but I want to know the bad things.  If it happened once, well there may be circumstances, but if feedback from various sources comes in the same way, you can bet I won't work with these people if I have any say in the matter.  But if no one shares the negative feedback, those late and no-show people keep working.

If these people were rep'd by an agent, you'd tell the agent if something went wrong.  Depending on the circumstances, in many cases, that agent will drop them.  If the circumstances are really bad, that agent will inform other agents, and that person simply won't work through any agencies again - at least in that market.  And freelance work typically isn't as good as the work provided by agents.

EmElle, I meant what I said!  So far I have never had a model do a "no show" on me.  I have had very few "bad" experiences to speak of.  There have been times when I'm running late or a model is running late, but that is only once in a great while. We have each others cell phone numbers so we can communicate this information with an Estimated Arrival Time. 

Now I don't understand if you are saying that there are people we must label a "bad seed" because they wont ever change?  But conversation is always good if we can learn something from it. 

Are we talking about a list that is about circumstances such as being late, not showing up, being grumpy, not telling decent jokes?  Or are we talking about really BAD seeds as in someone who molests you or doesn't pay you ... then that is a different matter entirely!

I do not work with people who do not show up, are late all the time (everyone is late once in a while, right?) or do not pay me when that was the agreement. I do not molest or harrass models, or disrespect them.  The people I work with are respectful, and we work well together. That is why I don't think a black list is important. I think it is more important to talk about those who we SHOULD be working with! The bad seeds get left behind that way!

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

EmElle, I meant what I said! 

That didn't help.  I was trying to get you to help me understand what you were saying.

As near as I can figure out, you simply don't want to know, and aren't ever going to talk about someone else if the information is bad.

As I said before, things can go wrong once.  Life happens.  I get that.  But if people are getting paid, if plans were made (or broken) to accomodate a shoot, late (really late) and especially no-shows are expensive on a variety of levels.  If the attitude sucked, that can be expensive too... bad attitudes can bring the morale down on a shoot... creativity gets shot, the shoot itself might stink, everyone may want to give up early, and *that* shot we were after may never have been achieved.  If people are completely uninterested in the shoot (like a makeup artist who refuses to actually watch the shoot and instead reads a book) that can be expensive.  Don't tell me you'll just photoshop it, because you may not catch the problem.

Now I don't understand if you are saying that there are people we must label a "bad seed" because they wont ever change? 

Well, yeah, maybe.  The shelf life of a model is such that s/he may not grow up in time to save their career.  Same with makeup artists, actually.  It's *tough* to build a career as a mua, and it's easy to build yourself a bad rep before you even get going, after spending $thousands on a decent kit.  You're broke, not working, and have to drop out.  Maybe that's true for photogs too, but you guys seem to stick around longer than the models or muas. 

As much as 80% of muas are out of the biz after two years.  That's not a lot of time to figure out where you went wrong, change it, and find some way to overcome all the obstacles you set in place for yourself.  Especially in a small market.  Large markets, well, you can simply shift to a different segment for more chances at growing, learning, and re-building the rep.

Are we talking about a list that is about circumstances such as being late, not showing up, being grumpy, not telling decent jokes?  Or are we talking about really BAD seeds as in someone who molests you or doesn't pay you ... then that is a different matter entirely!

Everything except the bad joke teller.  Don't care about that.  And again, if they are late or a no show ONCE, there's circumstances.  They are late everytime, or never show, there's a problem.  If they are always grumpy, problem.  If they don't pay, you bet I want to know their names.

I think it is more important to talk about those who we SHOULD be working with! The bad seeds get left behind that way!

If you only talk about the good people, the people you're talking to may never know you've already had experience with someone at a negative level.  Therefore, these bad seeds are still going to get work.  No one is providing feedback in your world that would help someone re-think their intentions for their shoot.

Have you never had occasion to talk to a photographer who complained about how a model was an hour late twice in two shoots, and then you said, "well, yeah, I've worked with her several times, and she was late every time."  And did that photog ever ask you why you didn't share this sooner?

If anyone on that shoot is getting paid by the hour, this is critical information.

Posted by theda: 
My list is rainbow colored. Yeah, I have people I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, people that I'm always up to working with and everyone in between. 

Right on! It's the truth for all of us! 

Posted by Christopher Wright: 
So if we all adopt the rainbow list would that make all of us the "rainbow coalition"? Okay, I know that was bad but it had to be done.

Chris

Hey man, we are ALL ONE PEOPLE!  Right on!  LOL

Posted by Kevin Connery: 
I don't accept other opinions as gospel, but I don't need to make all the mistakes myself either.

If a handful of photographers tell me that a model cancelled the day of the shoot, or failed to show without warning, I'm less inclined to work with that model--or take extra precautions.

If a handful of models tell me horror stories about another photographer, I'm less inclined to recommend that photographer myself.

The opposite is also true: models who get praised by other photographers, MUAs with great feedback, photographers who many models say great things about--I'll pass that along if asked, and I'm more inclined to consider working with them.

True ... but have you ever wondered how these models who "never show up" get a portfolio together? I always try to meet with models before the shoot if it's the first time working with them.  Other wise ... I have never seen the "no shows" because they didn't show!  LOL 

Posted by theda: 
Okay. Let's all hold hands and sway.

(no idea how to spell this, so...)


koombayah

Posted by theda: 
Okay. Let's all hold hands and sway.

Can we do the lighter thing like they do at Heavy Metal concerts?

Posted by Joe K. Perez:
Can we do the lighter thing like they do at Heavy Metal concerts?

can we ...uhhh... "smoke" too?

Dude!

Okay, it must be past my bedtime.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Folks, I think what's missing in this thread is some context.
...well, you get the picture.

What's your take?

Posted by Jack D Trute: 
I just hurled.

Look chunks.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Folks, I think what's missing in this thread is some context.

Examples:

- a commercial shoot for a client
- a spec shoot
- a test shoot
- a TFP/TFCD shoot

The list could be longer, but using what I've outlined so far, think real hard. If such a blacklist / rainbow (preferred list) were to be formed somewhere in the Internet, which of the above situations should they be applied to? Should it be for one situation, or all?

If I had to pick one, then I'd have to go with bullet item 1, for the reason that these type of jobs are potentially high profile, high budget, time constrained and...well, you get the picture.

What's your take?

Joe, man you know I respect your "lists" on this forum, you always come up with some great ones! So what if I do come off as seeing through rose tinted glasses, it's alright! It's just the filter on my lens!  LOL    But really ...  I do know that being aware of certain "problem" people is very useful.

The E-Bay website has a ratings and comments area for others to rate the sellers.  Most of the time the ratings and comments are positive. However some sort of method of rating on a website is difficult to keep from getting manipulated. Not only is it difficult to set up and monitor,  but no such system would be "perfect" either!

Yes, "a commercial shoot for a client" would also be my choice as the most critical. The "client" is one who should want to look at the work record of the photographer, MUA, and model(s) involved being that it's coming out of their pocketbook. But how many of us here on Model Mayhem are in the position where we are working with clients who give us the opportunity to pick our "team?" 

So I get hired to shoot an add for a motorcycle shop.  Let's say that the "client" put me together with a difficult or problem model.  Let's say for example ... she is late! LOL The shoot might be stressful, but I get it done anyway.  So then I go and place a comment about this model on some website. Later I find out that the model was the girlfriend, wife or daughter of the "client" who hired me! By now I think you know where I'm going with this ... right?  It can certainly backfire on the messenger of this information if someone else with a personal vested interest sees it as a personal attack of that other person they put you with.

As I said before, when the information is critical for prevention of death, rape or harassment to a model, it's absolutely the right thing to tell the proper authorities. Maybe a website such as this MM is not the right place for it to be posted.  It's also great to know if someone is running a scam, not making payments as agreed or basically conducting business in an unethical manner, but then it's a Civil matter. Again, it may not be wise to post it on Model Mayhem.

Fake talent agents and managers are a major ass irritant to me!  Here in California, I have turned in more than my share of so called agents and managers who were pulling scams. Everything from working without a license, taking money without giving a receipt to not giving a copy of the contract (the copying machine "was" broken!)  For everyone closed down, another crawls out from under a rock! This is where I would like to see a "blacklist!"

But there are good talent agents and managers out there too!  So Joe, are you ready to make another list?  LOL

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Folks, I think what's missing in this thread is some context.

Examples:

- a commercial shoot for a client
- a spec shoot
- a test shoot
- a TFP/TFCD shoot

The list could be longer, but using what I've outlined so far, think real hard. If such a blacklist / rainbow (preferred list) were to be formed somewhere in the Internet, which of the above situations should they be applied to? Should it be for one situation, or all?

If I had to pick one, then I'd have to go with bullet item 1, for the reason that these type of jobs are potentially high profile, high budget, time constrained and...well, you get the picture.

What's your take?

Hmmmm ......


I had written something but it got lost in transition ... or was it translation?



Oh Oh!  There it is! The forum has been acting strange with holding back posts lately!

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
True ... but have you ever wondered how these models who "never show up" get a portfolio together? I always try to meet with models before the shoot if it's the first time working with them.  Other wise ... I have never seen the "no shows" because they didn't show!  LOL   

Ever wondered? More like always wondered.

I hired 2 models for a Saturday shoot, got telephone confirmation from both of them on Friday, and neither one showed up. Both had decent online samples from various photographers. Since then, I've spoken with a handful of other photographers who had similar results from those same models. Booked, either for pay or trade, and no show. Yet they both have updated images.

They can't always flake or they couldn't be getting new work--but I won't (attempt to) work with either one again.

Why? Because I'd scheduled a rental studio, brought in a stylist and a makeup artist, dragged out a bunch of clothes, etc., and inconveniencing that many people, and involving even the relatively small amount of money makes them bad risks for me.

Had it been a simple setup and shoot outside, it might have been different. In this case, they both knew what was involved, and neither showed nor called (nor answered their phones).

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Folks, I think what's missing in this thread is some context.

Examples:

- a commercial shoot for a client
- a spec shoot
- a test shoot
- a TFP/TFCD shoot

The list could be longer, but using what I've outlined so far, think real hard. If such a blacklist / rainbow (preferred list) were to be formed somewhere in the Internet, which of the above situations should they be applied to? Should it be for one situation, or all?

If I had to pick one, then I'd have to go with bullet item 1, for the reason that these type of jobs are potentially high profile, high budget, time constrained and...well, you get the picture.

What's your take?

Agreed.

For the others, the situations are annoying.  If any money is exchanging in any of the rest of the situations, then the importance jumps for me.  Even in the TFP/CD situation where I am expecting something for my time, it's important.  But if the shoot went south (like the model showed up looking way different than she presented herself to be) then I may lose interest in the results anyway.  Maybe the shooter lost interest too, and that's why I haven't seen the images.

Spec shoot, whether I'm paid or not, if it gets picked up, I'm supposed to be paid - so yes, I'd be upset.  If it gets picked up and the idea is that we keep shooting similar stuff, then you bet I want to have that communication.  That impacts me.

(Yes, even if the shoot may be TFP/CD between the photog and model, I might still be charging.)

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Time is money for all of us. So, everyone in favor of creating a blacklist have to ask themselves one key question:

- How much time do we (or you as an individual), want to spend, explaining why someone was put on your blacklist (for a non-felony, non-misdemeanor offense)?

I spend about as much time explaining my blacklist as I do explaining how someone got on my rainbow list.

At no point do I end up in random conversations with random people and name drop anyone on my blacklist.  I only discuss my list with people I know who I don't have to explain anything to.  These are also the people I would discuss my rainbow list with, and the people who I might pair up with other professionals for future projects.