Christopher Ambler wrote:
There is a fantastic location about 15 miles from my house - an abandoned saw mill, complete with rusting band saws and disc saws, conveyor belts, tons of old wood, piping, and lushly overgrown. I've shot there innumerable times over the past two or three years.

Today, I took my assistant and a model out there to do the last shoot for my next book. We got there, picked an inside spot, and started shooting. About an hour into the shoot, we were interrupted by three members of King County's finest law enforcement establishment. The model was, of course, nude, and I was in mid-shot.

They asked us to stop, and one of the cops used his magic words: "We had a report of nudity, and someone was alarmed and affronted." I then used my magic words, "Really? I'm surprised, as we were mostly out of eyesight from the highway, but I'm terribly sorry. There's nothing untoward going on here, I'm shooting for a book. Nothing that appeals to the prurient nature, I assure you, and we had no intent to offend anyone."

Everything defused at that point. The cops let the model get her dress on, they asked for all of our identification which I gladly provided, we all came back 10-60 (no wants or warrants), and they asked the model, aside, if all was okay. The model said yes, and that all was exactly as I had described it.

We were then told, "Well, we don't see anything wrong here other than the fact that this is private property, so unless you have permission from the owner, we're going to ask you to leave."

"Absolutely, sir," I replied. I actually have tried to find the owner to ask permission, but the county records show the last owner, the actual mill company, to be out of business, and the property appears to have reverted to the county. So since there were no "no trespassing" signs, and since I know a lot of photographers shoot here, we chose the location.

"Yeah," agreed the cop, "it is a nice location. But still..."

"Yup. I know." I answered, "No worries."

So I only got one hour out of a three hour shoot, but our run-in with the cops was pleasant and without a problem. They clearly knew our state's standing on indecent exposure, and I'm reasonably sure that I got across, in a polite manner, that I did, too, and we both knew that we weren't even close. The model was in her late 20's, by the way, so that wasn't an issue.

I guess it all depends on where you live and what the cop had for lunch that day?

The third-to-last frame from the shoot is in my portfolio here, to give you an idea of the incredibly rich location. I'm sad to see if off limits now.

who were the officers? both of my uncles are policemen, one is a county sherriff last i checked and i cant remember if it is pierce or king.

edit: one is a puyallup patrol commander, other is a pierce county sgt....havent seen them in about 5 years....either way, sucky story.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Busted by the cops today

sounds more like, uh, you were interrupted, not busted (i.e., actually arrested) ...

FML

Christopher Ambler wrote:
...We were then told, "Well, we don't see anything wrong here other than the fact that this is private property, so unless you have permission from the owner, we're going to ask you to leave."

"Absolutely, sir," I replied. I actually have tried to find the owner to ask permission, but the county records show the last owner, the actual mill company, to be out of business, and the property appears to have reverted to the county. So since there were no "no trespassing" signs, and since I know a lot of photographers shoot here, we chose the location.

"Yeah," agreed the cop, "it is a nice location. But still..."

You didn't think fast enough or do enough research... if the property [buildings, ect, but also including ground ownership] reverted for tax purposes to the county then it MAY BE, factually, public property; - OR - and this too would not be unusual in your neck of the woods, the actual ground may belong to the forest service, BLM, or the state of WA - also public lands.

Do a bit more research on that. You may not be out of luck using it in the future if any of those possibilities is true. The cop assumed it was private property because of the previous use, not necessarily with factual knowlewdge of ownership of the ground, by a private corporation... but is it? Mill sites were, and still are, leased by the forest service, the BLM and the state, on public ground. Railways and mining companies own a ton of that stuff [forest land] in WA state as well. And so does the state of WA, itself, for that matter. Not to mention tribal lands as well.

As to the actual ownership and status of the land... all may not be as the cop assumed it to be.

In the end you fall back to the principle that you have a right to be there unless that right has been removed by constructive notice [e.g.  posting]. What I am getting at is that you probably don't need explicit permission of the "owner" to be on the land, especially if it is publicly owned land in the first place, but even if it is in private ownership - if they don't want you to assume an implied license to be there they can post it to that effect. The cop asked you to leave... but whether he had a right, and a knowledgeable and fully informed legal basis, to do that is what I am questioning. If land is not posted then you have a right to make certain assumptions as well... as it turns out, those assumptions may well be the opposite of theirs.

Studio36

Melissa D wrote:
Unfortunately, you actually were trespassing,

Actually in WA state he may NOT have been trespassing.... REGARDLESS of the ownership status of the former, but now abandoned, mill and land UNLESS it was posted, which he says it wasn't.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.52.090

RCW 9A.52.090
Criminal trespass — Defenses.
   
In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

    (1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

     (2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

     (3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or...

NOTE: Bizarrely, it would appear that if he found an abandoned industrial building to shoot in, in downtown Seattle, the same defence would apply... much less at an abandoned mill in the forest.

--------

There are also other reasons that he may not have been trespassing if the land was publically owned and merely leased to the former mill.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=4.24.210

RCW 4.24.210
Liability of owners or others in possession of land and water areas for injuries to recreation users — Limitation.

Except as otherwise provided in subsection (3) or (4) of this section, any public or private landowners or others in lawful possession and control of any lands whether designated resource, rural, or urban, or water areas or channels and lands adjacent to such areas or channels, who allow members of the public to use them for the purposes of outdoor recreation, which term includes, but is not limited to, the cutting, gathering, and removing of firewood by private persons for their personal use without purchasing the firewood from the landowner, hunting, fishing, camping, picnicking, swimming, hiking, bicycling, skateboarding or other nonmotorized wheel-based activities, hanggliding, paragliding, rock climbing, the riding of horses or other animals, clam digging, pleasure driving of off-road vehicles, snowmobiles, and other vehicles, boating, nature study, winter or water sports, viewing or enjoying historical, archaeological, scenic, or scientific sites, without charging a fee of any kind therefor, shall not be liable for unintentional injuries to such users....

AND also a small clue to what is public policy here:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=79.10.125

Chapter 79.10 RCW
Land management authorities and policies

RCW 79.10.125
Land open to public for fishing, hunting, and nonconsumptive wildlife activities.
   
All state lands hereafter leased for grazing or agricultural purposes shall be open and available to the public for purposes of hunting and fishing, and for nonconsumptive wildlife activities, as defined by the board of natural resources, unless closed to public entry because of fire hazard or unless the department gives prior written approval and the area is lawfully posted by lessee to prohibit hunting and fishing, and nonconsumptive wildlife activities, thereon in order to prevent damage to crops or other land cover, to improvements on the land, to livestock, to the lessee, or to the general public, or closure is necessary to avoid undue interference with carrying forward a departmental or agency program. In the event any such lands are so posted it shall be unlawful for any person to hunt or fish, or pursue nonconsumptive wildlife activities, on any such posted lands. Such lands shall not be open and available for wildlife activities when access could endanger crops on the land or when access could endanger the person accessing the land.

--------

Studio36

Surreal Eye Studio wrote:
From my personal experience (both photographing and being a drunken sot wandering around 1st Ave at 3am looking for the damn bus stop) I can say that King County and Seattle Metro cops are typically very nice people who just want to make sure nothing bad happens in their territory. 

Bellevue cops, on the other hand....

I grew up in Bellevue so I know all about the cops there.

I do commend you and the model for how you dealt with the cops. At least they seemed to be pretty understanding, and I'm sure you keeping your cool and being cooperative helped a great deal.

What's sad is that, with all of the news media's focus on the busts and investigations revolving around the webmodeling industry as well as sexual preditors in general, I believe some of the public fear it has caused has spilled over into our realm as model photographers. It seems to some that seeing a guy taking photos of a pretty girl is becoming viewed more often as being naughty and suspicious.

It just seems to me that we are starting to have to watch our backs alot more, and that is a sad statement on our society. Maybe if we all can do as you did by keeping our cool when met with similar situations, we can beat some of the prejudice surrounding us at present.

Vito wrote:
Besides the possibility that the place may be public property and unable to be used, just apply for a permit? Do they have permits out there?

Never heard of one in an unincorporated area of the state [outside city or town limits] except for state parks [probably on federal and tribal land as well] and even then ONLY for COMMERCIAL [film and video] productions... and I lived in Spokane and Whitman counties for a total of ca 8 years but also worked all over Eastern WA and west to Ellensberg [Central WA]

If it's public property then it is open to the public UNLESS posted otherwise; if it is private property and NOT POSTED it is assumed to be open to the public [that's why there is limitation of liability in law]; if it is farm land/grazing land leased from the public lands and NOT POSTED then it is assumed to be open to the public.

Studio36

Duncan wrote:
All cops want is respect...

I believe it was L. Neil Smith who said, "Cops are like your parents. They don't want justice. They just want quiet. If you give them quiet, they probably won't bother you much. If you go thinking they're trying to do what's right and/or fair, you won't get any further with them than most teenagers get with their parents."

M

Mike Cummings wrote:
I assure you, and we had no intent to offend anyone." [but in any case, fuck you pig, I know my rights.]

Paraphrased from chapter 8, page 264 from the ACLU book: How to Deal With Pigs When They Storm Your Shoot hand guide for photographers

Christopher Ambler wrote:
So as it turns out, it appears that the location is public land!

So there may be hope yet - I'm calling the county later this afternoon.

Probably the best one to contact first would be the county assessor... they have ALL the property records for tax purposes and can tell you who the owner is if it turns out not to be publicly owned property. If it is they can tell you that too. Whatever they tell you try to get it in writing in some form. you may have to pay them a visit and photocopy the stuff yourself... it is a public record, however, that anyone is entitled to see and copy. They should have something like a plat book with survey maps and ownerships indicated.

After you find out, and especially if it is public land, you might want to have a friendly chat with the public liaison officer of whatever police agency ordered you off the place.

Studio36

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Breaking News! I just got a call back from King County Parks - the whole Preston Mill area is, indeed, public land, and, with the exception of the locked areas, is open for public use. I got the name, title and phone number of the property agent at KCPD, and printed out all the property records. The agent not only told me it was cool to photograph there, but offered to have someone unlock the unsafe areas if I wanted access some time (of course, I didn't mention nude models, so I won't be taking him up on that).

I'm thrilled!

Good to know. This is indeed a news worthy of bold texts. You set good example to other photographers.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Breaking News! I just got a call back from King County Parks - the whole Preston Mill area is, indeed, public land, and, with the exception of the locked areas, is open for public use. I got the name, title and phone number of the property agent at KCPD, and printed out all the property records. The agent not only told me it was cool to photograph there, but offered to have someone unlock the unsafe areas if I wanted access some time (of course, I didn't mention nude models, so I won't be taking him up on that).

I'm thrilled!

Fantastic!!!! Good job, wow a great place to shoot and no cuffs. Sometimes nice guys do finish first.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Breaking News! I just got a call back from King County Parks - the whole Preston Mill area is, indeed, public land, and, with the exception of the locked areas, is open for public use. I got the name, title and phone number of the property agent at KCPD, and printed out all the property records. The agent not only told me it was cool to photograph there, but offered to have someone unlock the unsafe areas if I wanted access some time (of course, I didn't mention nude models, so I won't be taking him up on that).

I'm thrilled!

Its nice to see someone do their research! Well done!

Koray wrote:
why doesnt anyone dramatize a shoot being busted by the police?
I know I would if I could....

To what end? Instructional video? Porn?