Mikel Featherston wrote:

You are not mean, you are just allergic to stupidity.

That is great *scribblesnotes*

Iona Lynn wrote:

That is great *scribblesnotes*

If I start seeing it on t-shirts I'll come looking for you!

Iona Lynn wrote:
My good friend used to say


"stupidity should be painfull"

often it is. I have the scars to prove it!

TXPhotog wrote:
Being a manager or agent is hard.  People don't understand that.  It looks easy.

It sounds like your "manager" is learning a lesson he doesn't like and doesn't yet understand.

No he doesn't. He told me that as a business person, he has to do what is best for him. I told him that he should then understand that I need to do what's best for me.

He also said to not get mad if he gives future paying jobs to the girls who do the free stuff. (nevermind the fact that I've already done 2 free things for him.) I told him fine, so be it. That's a risk I will have to take.

Angel Tara wrote:

No he doesn't. He told me that as a business person, he has to do what is best for him.

Oh yes... I think "Alienating the people you depend on" was number 5 in the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.

He also said to not get mad if he gives future paying jobs to the girls who do the free stuff. (nevermind the fact that I've already done 2 free things for him.) I told him fine, so be it. That's a risk I will have to take.

Gotta love threats.

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Oh yes... I think "Alienating the people you depend on" was number 5 in the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.

right. At some point in the umteenth conversation, I reminded him that he works for me, when he mentioned firing me. He said I have no faith in him. I told him that NO, I don't.

I did, however, eventually talk to his partner. He is very upset with him.

Angel Tara wrote:
Thanks Alan. However I was speaking of a model manager. Sorry I was unclear.

You see that, I read your post five times I could not see, from reading it, how you were talking about a model manager.  It sounded to me you were talking the the manager of the new clothing line.

Good luck to you either way.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
This isn't a "free" sort of gig. You should be paid. What useful "exposure" could this possibly bring you?

Exactly.

Hmm, doesn't sound like that great of an opportunity to me... stick to your guns.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

You see that, I read your post five times I could not see, from reading it, how you were talking about a model manager.  It sounded to me you were talking the the manager of the new clothing line.

Good luck to you either way.

sorry, again. I edited it so it should be more clear.

Angel Tara wrote:
He said that the pay was going to be a pathetic $50 but they negotiated for use of the clothing instead (no pay) (lingerie...ewww!) We don't get to keep anything but we get "exposure."

maybe this was mentioned, but I don't get it. At a fashion show - for a designer or boutique - I can't see the model suppling the clothes. thats the whole point of the fashion show. When you say 'USE', I assume you mean for the show.

Jack North wrote:

maybe this was mentioned, but I don't get it. At a fashion show - for a designer or boutique - I can't see the model suppling the clothes. thats the whole point of the fashion show. When you say 'USE', I assume you mean for the show.

Yes but also in the future, for photo shoots. He is looking to build a working relationship with the boutique. He supplies girls for the show in exchange for usage of the clothing.

I said ewwwwww because "borrowing" out lingerie is gross.

Angel Tara wrote:

Thanks!

Yes I am with an agency and they have been calling me more lately. One of the benefits of this gig is supposedly that Dennis Archer's son will be there. Well, through the agency, I just the campaign for his charity event coming out in August and was paid well. So, I'm sure come next month, Archer's son will be sick of seeing my face after reviewing the invitations and banners etc, that it will be on, as will much of Detroit.

So, now that I think about it, it's a no brainer and a dumb question. I don't need it....

Smart is soooo sexy!!!!

Angel Tara wrote:
right. At some point in the umteenth conversation, I reminded him that he works for me, when he mentioned firing me. He said I have no faith in him. I told him that NO, I don't.

I did, however, eventually talk to his partner. He is very upset with him.

Is there a good reason why you are still with these people?  They have a fundamental misunderstanding about what being a manager is all about.

Angel Tara wrote:
Thanks everyone. I was just mad because he said I was wrong, and that I'm trying to take advantage of people.

I was especially mad when he said initially there was pay, but he renegotiated it for the benefit of his company (to hell with the girls).

I need a new game plan. I need to be like Cristal.

thanks again everyone

That he changed the terms half way through is reason enough to tell him to screw off. Even if the inital amount was chicken feed, to try to go back and then say "now it's for free" is taking advantage of you.

Really, this "exposure" isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I would have bailed, too.

Christopher Ambler wrote:

How could it hurt you? You're making $0. If you do the gig, you make $0. If you decline, you make $0.

Looks like you make $0.

If you keep doing free gigs, you make $0. If you decline, and it gets you paid gigs, you make money.

Were I in your position, I would move on. That includes finding a situation in which paid gigs were coming my way. But that's me.

I'll add this as well.

Acutally, you'll make less than that if you DO the gig.  As mentioned above, this is happening way too much.  I can understand this if this is TFP and no one is making money on the deal and everyone is benefiting from the images.  But this is a show.  Where is the benefit for you here other than feeing good about doing the new manager a favor? (even that's questionable) The store get to benefit from using a beautiful model that is good enough for any agency.  What do you get out of the deal?

So the precedent is set. I think you are hardly subtitutable but if they do then it's their loss.  You would benefit more doing a TFP shoot than doing this show for free.

Tell then to pay you.  Even if it's a token amount it is a symbol that you are worth something to them.  If you can't leverage your look to get what you want then why are you modeling, right?

Angel Tara wrote:
sorry, again. I edited it so it should be more clear.

No worries.  Now dump the guy!  If he doesn't understand that he works for you, I don't see the point of being with him.

You are too good to mess around with someone who is so bad!

Angel Tara wrote:
No he doesn't. He told me that as a business person, he has to do what is best for him. I told him that he should then understand that I need to do what's best for me.

He also said to not get mad if he gives future paying jobs to the girls who do the free stuff. (nevermind the fact that I've already done 2 free things for him.) I told him fine, so be it. That's a risk I will have to take.

if you can allow me to get serious for a second, lol...

first off, how is "generic guy" giving you exposure (if there is such a thing at a fashion show with low budget) when he is new and you arent? i mean, dont get me wrong - being new is a beautiful thing because you get to see somebody grow and develop over time, but still i ask... how is he helping you when he isnt even known at all? if anything, youre helping this show out by lending your valuable experience and "backstage morale" with your professionalism and preparation. thats the problem with these "yo yo yo" fashion shows. they dont have any budget to want to work with (note: want to), and they dont "go for the kill" instead of just reaching short for the least productive decisions, then they ... mind you, dont have any sense of aspect about the concept of what theyre doing, tell you that they are helping you out by giving you exposure, which is such a popular word used in the yo market.

sorry but fashion shows are WORK. a photo shoot situation can be argued about pay, but a fashion show, especially a show without a cushion budget, can be brutal, because we all know you will end up finding yourself doing more work than just working the runway/stage. you'll probably end up having to help the stylists or help fit the other girls or even help the designers out, you know SOMETHING is going to shake up the day of, and thats how about.... 99% of non-cushion budget fashion shows work.

no offense to you angel, because you're an absolute hell of a talent, but this is business in your situation. business is business, and you are as Angel Tara, a business. the future is the future, but who's to say you'll be around for the future? you are a business, and businesses need to be compensated NOW for NOW stuff. if the future is so much of an issue to them, let them hire you in the future when they can cut some checks. is this potential situation worth zero dollars and more stress? hope everything works out.

Angel Tara wrote:
It's a small world eh? I was just called by my friend, who still remains my friend. We had a good conversation about this issue and this thread.

This is interesting, and it changes the power relationships some.  This thread, although it does not name them, does not paint them in a positive light.  You have shown (but not exercised or abused) your power to create "exposure" for them in a way that they may not enjoy.

A thoughtful "manager" might want to give some consideration to the fact that you are an opinion leader, and that he is not the only one with access to people in the community.  I would think, if he is indeed thoughtful, that would cause him to reconsider some of the things he has said to you.

Have I been obtuse enough with that?

chris paul wrote:
You know one thing this thread neglects is that a manager and an agent are different an agent is supposed to get you work a manager is just suppard to help you in business dealings and should work to make sure your optimizing every oppourtunity.
If the manager doesn't have contacts already you need not be with them. At one point I was going to get into managing but I don't want to until I get a little more law experience and a few west coast contacts

Chris, before you get into managing, you need to learn that there are many, many different types of "managers" and that they provide a very wide range of different types of services.  Some of them are indistinguishagle from agencies; others provide the very limited services you describe.

This particular batch seems to be shading more into the "agency" side of that spectrum.

Angel Tara wrote:
I hate starting threads, but I need to vent and I'd also like some advice.

I got into it today with a "manager" at a new start up model management company. He asked me to do still modeling at a local fashion event for a boutique owner. He said that the pay was going to be a pathetic $50 but they negotiated for use of the clothing instead (no pay) (lingerie...ewww!) We don't get to keep anything but we get "exposure." They are going to put the shots (begin sarcastic tone here) in a couple magazines and some important people from Detroit will be there.

Looking at what you wrote in your original post.. if it was your manager that "negotiated" you out of 50 buck just to let you "wear" the lingerie... then he actually screwed you out of 50 bucks... not in your best interests..

If it were me and I got screwed out of that 50.. he would be gone faster than superman racing a train.

TXPhotog wrote:

This is interesting, and it changes the power relationships some.  This thread, although it does not name them, does not paint them in a positive light.  You have shown (but not exercised or abused) your power to create "exposure" for them in a way that they may not enjoy.

A thoughtful "manager" might want to give some consideration to the fact that you are an opinion leader, and that he is not the only one with access to people in the community.  I would think, if he is indeed thoughtful, that would cause him to reconsider some of the things he has said to you.

Have I been obtuse enough with that?

I never meant to "out" anyone, and I will admit to feeling bad. But if it boils down to it, then so be it.

Angel Tara wrote:
I never meant to "out" anyone, and I will admit to feeling bad. But if it boils down to it, then so be it.

Of course you didn't mean that.  And of course I wasn't suggesting it - unless you choose to find the suggestion in what I wrote.  But perhaps the "manager" will come to understand that he is not the only source of information that people (including models) listen to.  If he doesn't have a monopoly on information, then it's harder for him to pull the BS he's been trying to feed you - too many other sources to call him on it.

And, he might be concerned that you are also a very credible source of information, both from your own knowledge, and from what you can acquire from sources like, say, here.  And people might listen to you.

But no, I would never, ever suggest outing him.  Unless there were a good reason for it, of course.

Angel Tara wrote:
I said ewwwwww because "borrowing" out lingerie is gross.

That was my thought. Who reuses underwear? Especially if a model has been sweating in it. Doesn’t sound like much of a boutique if they loan out underwear. At least not one I want to shop at. If I buy underwear for a model to shoot in, please, take it home with you.

TXPhotog wrote:

Of course you didn't mean that.  And of course I wasn't suggesting it - unless you choose to find the suggestion in what I wrote.

Noooo! I was referring to this whole thread as possibly "outing" someone, and not that you were suggesting it. I never imagined that someone would be reading this and would know what I was talking about. I just wanted to express myself and it sucks that I can't do that without it becoming bigger than it need be.

But, as you have pointed out, I have some solace in the fact that some view me as a credible source. If it becomes a big problem, I atleast have that.

markcomp wrote:
The more zero dollar gigs you do, the more you are percieved as having that same worth.

Angel Tara wrote:

Noooo! I was referring to this whole thread as possibly "outing" someone, and not that you were suggesting it. I never imagined that someone would be reading this and would know what I was talking about. I just wanted to express myself and it sucks that I can't do that without it becoming bigger than it need be.

But, as you have pointed out, I have some solace in the fact that some view me as a credible source. If it becomes a big problem, I atleast have that.

My advice to you cut and dry, just get a better understanding of the business. no matter what opportunities come your way, you need to know for your own sake. I'm very serious. do you have an agent? if not, get one, but make sure you have a good agent. but learn this stuff too.

Angel Tara wrote:
I hate starting threads, but I need to vent and I'd also like some advice.

I got into it today with a "manager" at a new start up model management company. He asked me to do still modeling at a local fashion event for a boutique owner. He said that the pay was going to be a pathetic $50 but they negotiated for use of the clothing instead (no pay) (lingerie...ewww!) We don't get to keep anything but we get "exposure." They are going to put the shots (begin sarcastic tone here) in a couple magazines and some important people from Detroit will be there.

Perhaps I'm having a bad day and I'm over reacting but I got mad. I said I'm tired of doing these events and things for free, and that someone needs to pay me $100 and I don't care if its her or him. He said I'm bogue, and that I'm trying to take advantage and that no one is getting paid. I said that's the problem around here and I don't understand how no one ever seems to have a budget for models and that if he was really a good manager, he'd be getting his girls money. At this point it is the principle behind it all, as $100 is not a lot of money. He said I'm messing up his deal and that I should do it as a favor and please, baby, please, blah blah blah. He said he's new, I told him I'M NOT. I told him she picked me, she wants me, she can pay me or replace me.

I'm heated but at the same time I don't want to lose out on a good opportunity. I don't want to be at home sitting on my bum, being forgotten about. Then again, that's what they always say...exposure, exposure, exposure.

Is puttin my foot down going to hurt me or help me get away from the "free" rut, and most importantly, is it beer:thirty yet???

JM Dean wrote:
That was my thought. Who reuses underwear? Especially if a model has been sweating in it. Doesn’t sound like much of a boutique if they loan out underwear. At least not one I want to shop at. If I buy underwear for a model to shoot in, please, take it home with you.

It's illegal to resell used underwear here in California... my friends own a store that caters to the 'exotic dancer' community, so they make a lot of underwear. They have signs in the store stating to make sure you have your size right, because you can't return it.