Blue Water Photography wrote:
We can all agree - perhaps even the flakes will as well - that "flaking" is a problem. That's not to say it never happens outside of "internet modeling;" it does, of course. For some reason though, it seems a zillion times more prevelant with net models.

The best way I've found to reduce the "flake" factor has been to not depend on the net as my sole source for locating models.

I agree with both these statements. "Internet modelling" seems worse for flaking. I also have heard that some areas of the country in the U.S. are worse than others. For example, the level of proffessionalism seems to be higher in NYC and LA which makes sense I guess. Strangely though, I heard Portland was one of the better places to find reliable models.

As I said in another post, I've had problems with models flaking for *paid* shoots and it spelled disaster for meeting the clients' deadline. As a result, I now have a relationship with a land based agency in my area. If I have paid work and go through them, if the model doesn't show, they will send another one that best fits the requirements of the shoot.

McKenzie Bros Photo wrote:
When a model is free (TFCD) your going to experience good and bad.
And for all those experienced photogs...Models never cancel when the sweet mula is involved, right?!

Not true. I have had models not show for paid shoots.

TXPhotog wrote:
In cases where the photographer is not offering money, does not produce pictures of a type likely to improve the model's marketability, and does not shoot pictures of great interest and shows limited skills, the "flake factor" is likely to be very high.  Why would the model be motivated to spend hours of her time with him?

Precisely. I've done plenty of TFP/TFCD work, and I always show up as scheduled - I have no problem with not being paid. BUT, if the photos produced won't make me look good at all - the way the OP's shots are lit make all of the models look blotchy and unattractive - and have no artistic value, why bother? I personally wouldn't discuss a shoot with someone whose work I didn't respect in the first place, but I can see where a not-so-serious model like you described, who is really only in it for the attention, would. It's not a problem of models from a certain area being flaky. It's the fact that, honestly, if your shots would not be a useful addition to anyone's portfolio, and you're not paying anything, why would anyone agree to shoot with you, other than for attention?

Tangerine Media wrote:
Hey Photogs and Models,

I just spent about 6 hours creating a custom-set for shooting a model that confirmed one day before the shoot. TFCD. She then called with the weakest excuse 8 min before the shoot (I need to do more errands so I can't make it, but Maybe next week). My cost: MUA, rented site, thousands in gear, wardrobe, and travel expense.

I generally shoot with local models and locations. Costs are minimal. A flake is frustrating enough even then. I cannot begin to imagine the rage one must feel in a situation like yours.

I'm pissed off just from from reading this. I hope that model gets what they have coming to them!

Catriona wrote:
if your shots would not be a useful addition to anyone's portfolio, and you're not paying anything, why would anyone agree to shoot with you, other than for attention?

To answer the question that I don't think you intended to have answered . . . .

How many times have you seen a model's profile in which she goes into rapture at how wonderful/awesome/great her photographers have been, and how she highly recommends them all . . . and then you look at her portfolio, and every shot in it is struggling to be "mediocre"?

Or how many times have you seen models tell us that they have done lots of shoots now, and want to be paid, or to be accepted by an agency . . . and you see a portfolio full of pictures that are entirely wrong to get them hired, or to get an agency interested?

Fact, is, all too many models haven't got a clue what is good and what isn't; what works for what purpose and what doesn't.  We see it all the time.  (Worse, a fair number of photographers don't have that same clue either.)  And I expect it accounts for a lot of the TFPs that are booked, and no small percentage of those that are flaked on.

Richard Dubois wrote:

It does add up, but give me a break, thousands?  If you're going to spend that kind of money, might as well book a model through an agency.  As for what to do, nothing:  you take your chances when you do freebies, sometimes things don't work out.  Learn how to be thrifty when setting up a creative shoot.

Many of us have "thousands in gear". It is normally used for more than one shoot, so it can't be claimed as a flake casualty.

Catriona wrote:
if your shots would not be a useful addition to anyone's portfolio, and you're not paying anything, why would anyone agree to shoot with you, other than for attention?

Totally true.
Still, even if the only motivation is for attention, the commitment should still be honored...

Blue Water Photography wrote:
In these day of wireless technology, one almost has to look for a way to NOT be contacted rather than to stay in touch.

If someone does not communicate in today's world, it means they don't want to!

Eric Tragedy wrote:
Still, even if the only motivation is for attention, the commitment should still be honored...

Should be, yes - but if the girl is really just an attention whore who posts a profile here to get comments on how pretty she is, she probably won't feel like she has to actually follow through with the shoots she schedules. Just the fact that the photographers showed interest enough to schedule with her at all is probably all the ego boost she needs...

Tangerine Media wrote:
Hey Photogs and Models,

I just spent about 6 hours creating a custom-set for shooting a model that confirmed one day before the shoot. TFCD. She then called with the weakest excuse 8 min before the shoot (I need to do more errands so I can't make it, but Maybe next week). My cost: MUA, rented site, thousands in gear, wardrobe, and travel expense.

This is the 3rd MM model to do it in Portand, OR--like they think reputation doesn't matter. Portland is not the Rose City, it is the Flake City! When I worked in LA, SF, and NYC, the models would appear even if hung over) or at the very least their manager called with a reasonable notice.

Here is my question: how do you handle this situation?

I am thinking of no TFCD and a nominal fee for newer models...is this smart?

How would you do it?

I live and shoot in Portland, Oregon - and I'd like to support our models.  We shoot TFPs and we also charge.  We provide the same level of service and we generally receive the same level of professionalism from either 'type' of model.  We do have our share of inconsiderate models here but most of our models are extremely professional and a delight to work with.  I'd recommend that you check references of any model before you 'hire' him/her or commit to building an expensive set.  If you do have a large number of flakes, perhaps sharing her name with other Portland area photographers will help us in 'rooting out' the flakes.  The same advice goes to the models if they're conserned about shooting with a particular photographer.

As for me, we do have a one-time-you're-out policy: flake on us once and the next time the model wishes to shoot we require a refundable $100 show-up policy.  If the model shows, he/she is credited or refunded their $100. That has cut our “same model; second flakes" to zero.  It doesn't help for the first go-around, but it does for the second time around.  Also, we're no longer shooting TFPs or any first time shots around elaborate sets, for this same reason. 

Sorry to hear about your bad experience here in the Rose City - but I'd like to echo what was said earlier: we have many extremely reliable and professional models living and working here.  That said, if you'd like to email me with the model's name, I'd appreciate it so that we may not fall prey to the same bad behavior.  We will be more than happy to provide references on models we've worked with here in Portland – we don’t know them all, but we generally know which ones you can count on and which ones you can’t.  Caio, Tim at Portland Filmworks

Marker220 wrote:
When you do get a handle on how to handle the situation, let me know. For the most part, any TFP/CD stuff I have done has gone ok...

Then yesterday happened: I had a shoot scheduled with a model -  a beginner model. She did call to say she was lost and could not figure out how to get here. Around 45 minutes after her start time, she showed up with an escort. I have no problems with escorts at all.

Backstory here, I run a graphic arts business with an area of my building dedicated as a studio. The rest of the building is office and shop/fabrication area and looks nothing like a photostudio.

Anyway... they come in and I show them to the studio area, point out the studio area, the dressing room and such and proceed to move a few things around to get started. As I came in and out of the studio area a couple of times, I noticed that both of them seemed to be in the dressing room having a discussion. Moments later, they emerged. I think her statement was something like "I don't mean to be rude, but this is not a photo studio... I do not feel comfortable shooting here - perhaps you can come (to her area about 25 miles away) and do some location shots."

I said that most everything you see in my port was done here, that I certainly would not want anyone to feel uncomfortable and perhaps it was best to figure something else out at another time. Then they left. They were here for a total of about 7 minutes.

She stated that she was new had no idea of what to expect... whatever that means.

So... I'm adding her to my flake list and have no plans to shoot her at all.

I guess you just move on.

I dont get it. I have shot in studios that look like closets and I have amazing images out of those.

Not to mention abandoned buildings!

I feel like one of the only professionals left.

Catriona wrote:

Should be, yes - but if the girl is really just an attention whore who posts a profile here to get comments on how pretty she is, she probably won't feel like she has to actually follow through with the shoots she schedules. Just the fact that the photographers showed interest enough to schedule with her at all is probably all the ego boost she needs...

Would love to challenge you on this one! While you don't say my work sucks, you imply it. Fine, but I've been paid over 100 times for my photos up to $1500. I will put a show out in Portland downtown very soon.

Come over, I'll use the same sets as I prepared for the flakes, then in the end I will either pay you $100 for your hour, or you take a set of 10 prints. I almost guarantee, unless you are some immature headstrong model who KNOWS IT ALL, you will pay to take the photos.  But I CHALLENGE YOU.

TrueBeauty wrote:
It seems to me that the photographer is as worthy as any of the other principal people in a shoot to be able to recoup something...

Tangerine Media wrote:
Hey Photogs and Models,

I just spent about 6 hours creating a custom-... , and travel expense.

This is the 3rd MM model to do it in Portand, OR--...  it is the Flake City! ... .

Here is my question: how do you handle this situation?

I am thinking of no TFCD and a nominal fee for newer models...is this smart?

How would you do it?

From Cleveland, my ex-GF is in Portland, so I can vouch for it being FlakeCity.  LOL

As someone else stated, I meet with the model before the shoot to have an interview.  I will not shoot a 'model' without a coffee meeting to discuss the project ahead of time, and actually this works because I can put THEM on the spot to make them want to earn the job.  That is, I work their ego to my advantage and make them want to prove that they can model.  This has resulted in the best results and the fewest cancelations.

Also, this allows me to discuss the details of my home-studio and also they can set the tone of their expectation from the shoot, environment and other concerns.  I have always worked from a home-studio and I let them know that I shoot in my living area and purchase furnature based on the ease of converstion to a shooting area.  I discuss my equipment, and how I work.

TrueBeauty wrote:
I've read through this thread (and numerous others) where well intentioned people have said..."Pay the model"...or "Pay the MUA, Stylist, Dresser..." etc., etc., etc.

I can't honestly remember anyone actually saying "Pay the Photographer".
As one I ask, "Why Not?".

Forgive me for not quoting your entire post.

"Why not pay the photographer?"  Here's my theory:  The person who retains the copyright should compensate the other participants.  Typically, the photographer retains the copyright.

In most TFP/TFCD cases, the model gets...
   ... a number of images (that number chosen by the photographer),
   ... of a size chosen by the photographer,
   ... of a compression rate chosen by the photographer,
   ... edited to the photographer's taste, and
   ... often with the photographer's name (and not the model's) plastered all over.
The model cannot license the image, cannot print copies & sell the image, cannot publish the image, etc.  In theory, the model even needs permission to post the image on her on-line portfolios.

Meanwhile, the photographer can license the image, can publish them, can sell prints, can include them in a book of photos, etc.

So, if the image turns out to be valuable, only the copyright owner gets to profit from it.

Photofurnace wrote:
I USED TO struggle with this problem of models not showing up but I have found a solution.  My solution won't apply to everyone but maybe it will help someone.  I have a list of projects on my profiles and on my website and those are the only projects I shoot TFP.  I am doing it as an experiment, as a test and for fun.  If a model wants to participate in one of those projects (and the response has been overwhelming) they contact me and we set up a meeting.  This is usually just a 1/2 hour over coffee at Starbucks or some such place.  I don't travel far for meetings, I keep my "investment" low at this point.

I really believe that some people are simply flakes, and there's nothing you can do about that except not work with them. 

So, rule #1:  Avoid them!  Did you check references?  Contact the photographers who made the images on the model's portfolio & ask them about their experience with that particular model.  And, of course, if a model flakes on you, you are not obligated to give her a second chance or to provide a good reference when asked.

I also believe that in some of these cases, the photographer failed to motivate the model sufficiently.

So, rule #2:  Make sure the model is motivated.  Are they excited by the project -- have you communicated your enthusiasm sufficiently?  Is the model comfortable with the compensation you are offering?  Is the model comfortable working with/for you?  Have you treated the model well?  I believe that selecting models, negotiating contracts with them, and motivating them are all parts of the artistic process, and you need to put a good amount of time & energy into it.

I live in the city in question, and I don't have any problems with flakes or no-shows.  In part, it is because I put a good amount of energy into building a good working relationship with the models.  The OP here seemed to be focused on the project and the set and his own needs -- he appears to have gone to significant expense for the project while offering to pay the models nothing.  If his attitude towards his models was similar to the tone he took here, it doesn't surprise me that his models were undermotivated.

Tangerine Media wrote:
It really isn't all about being a naive beginner. Yes, invested thousands in gear, but not necessarily for this shoot.

I just wonder if a new model has a clue on what it takes to make a set happen.

Like almost any creative endeavor, there is risk. And to all you assholes out there with stupid fucking responses, Phuck Yiu.

whoa! you ask for people's opinions and this is your response? WTF?!?!
Im finding this similar thread everyday now....'models that flaked on me...' and its always for a TFCD shoot...
Read, learn and move on.....
this shit gets soooo old!

Eric Tragedy wrote:

Not true. I have had models not show for paid shoots.

Me too. Flakes are everywhere, in and out of this industry, it's a fact of life.