Star wrote:
who would pay whom

Thank you , I am getting too tired to write

Isys Entertainment wrote:
I think you need an award for most prolific thread stater of the month

I think the novelty will soon wear off ,,, Before about 3 weeks ago I had never participated in any sort of on line chat /forum etc so initially this  was all quite interesting but .....

Isys Entertainment wrote:
I think you need an award for most prolific thread stater of the month

No, that one goes firmly to BCG.

Why does one 'have' to pay the other. If they are both talented and inexperienced, they may actually find it mutually beneficial to work together because they want to, and not for money.

Hell, even if they are talented and experienced, they wouldn't have to pay each other. A client would pay them. Photographers have offered 'free testing' for models that they are attracted to photographically since the beginning of photography.

While I do many paid shoots, I just don't understand what this obsession with money is. If you look at the statistics, most photographers and models can't be in it for the money....very few of either make their sole income from it.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Corinne Day and Kate Moss were shooting together before either of them were successful.  I sincerely doubt either were paid.

You and I are of the same opinion in this one. I think most of the best photographers, and hopefully many of the best models, do it for love more than for money.

Star wrote:
I have to do it for love, no one will pay me

Just keep doing it...while you may not get rich, I have a strong feeling that you will be able to intersperse your 'shoots for love' with your other shoots (event, portfolio development, gallery work) pretty soon.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
True story: 

When Lauren Hutton was starting out, she wanted to shoot with a rising star photograher by the name Richard Avedon very badly!  However Richard was not interested in shooting with her.  Lauren was a hard worker ... she would take "tests" and low paying gigs that other models turned their nose up at.   

Eventually Lauren got signed by Fords and was sent to Richard for a "test" shoot.  Therefore, he HAD to shoot her!  At first they were having a hard time "clicking" but then in conversation with her, Richard asked what Lauren did for fun in the Florida swamps where she grew up?  She told him that as a little girl she like to hop like a frog, and proceeded to show him ... that's when he got those classic pictures of her hunched on her legs about to hop. 

So their shoot was a test, and no money was exchanged.  IMHO  They both went on to change the face of the modeling/photography industry as we know it!

It goes to show that passion and hard work is important ... perhaps more important than focusing on money?

Hmm, and where did this little true story come from?

By the time Lauren was starting her career in the mid sixties Avedon had been a staff photographer for Harper’s bazaar for 20 years and had been shooting fashion for them and Vogue for 20 years!. He had won the Art directors club of NY’s highest achievement award in 1950. In ’57 an obscure little movie called “Funny Faceâ€? was made based on his career, starring those unknown’s Fred Astair and Audrey Hepburn! In ’58 he was named one of the world’s ten greatest photographers by Pop Photo. In ’59 he worked on a book with Truman Capote photographing many of the most famous people of the 20th century such as Buster Keaton, Gloria Vanderbilt, Pablo Picasso, Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, Frank Lloyd Wright, and Mae West. In ’64 he did a book with James Baldwin. In 1962 a little museum called the Smithsonian (ever heard of them?) staged an exhibition titled “Richard Avedon.â€?

I don’t know about you, but I think it would probably be safe to call Avedon fairly well established as opposed to a “risingâ€? star by that time, and although being sent back to him by Diana Vreeland of Vogue was what it took for Avedon to shoot her, I don’t think he “hadâ€? to do anything at that point in his career. And he didn’t “go onâ€? from there to change the face of fashion as if that was some sort of jumping off point or turning point for him, he was already “the manâ€? (one of them anyway).

So it doesn’t fit the OP’s hypothetical at all, he wasn’t inexperienced, and it wasn’t a test they both decided to do together on their own for mutual benefit, he did it as a favor on behalf of Vreeland due to his relationship with her and the magazine.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
True story: 

When Lauren Hutton was starting out, she wanted to shoot with a rising star photograher by the name Richard Avedon very badly!  However Richard was not interested in shooting with her.  Lauren was a hard worker ... she would take "tests" and low paying gigs that other models turned their nose up at.   

Eventually Lauren got signed by Fords and was sent to Richard for a "test" shoot.  Therefore, he HAD to shoot her!  At first they were having a hard time "clicking" but then in conversation with her, Richard asked what Lauren did for fun in the Florida swamps where she grew up?  She told him that as a little girl she like to hop like a frog, and proceeded to show him ... that's when he got those classic pictures of her hunched on her legs about to hop. 

So their shoot was a test, and no money was exchanged.  IMHO  They both went on to change the face of the modeling/photography industry as we know it!

It goes to show that passion and hard work is important ... perhaps more important than focusing on money?

I like to read contributions (to the discussion) like this one -but maybe as Aaron stated Avedons star had already risen -thanks for sharing the story though

UdoR wrote:
May I interject?

Anyway... how often does it happen that two highly skilled, determined for great success, individuals are going to work together, which will reflect decades later and will be discussed on bulletin boards or future equivalents?

Guys... you never know who will be the next Avedon or Evangelista etc... BUT... what is this thread supposed to proof?

Models shouldn't be paid?

Photographers shouldn't be paid?

Tell'ya what... do your thing... get paid, pay... whatever, work for free... you never know what a chance shoot provides in a future.

I bet you that, neither Avedon nor Evangelista had an idea that they work with one of the greats of times to come... maybe they felt it, and that's why they didn't charge each other...

... however... WHAT does that have to do with YOU???

I would tend to agree with Udor,  I think whether you are just  starting out as a model or photographer or progressing in your field- you should not get boxed in to always thinking you should be paid ..You ve gotta keep and open mind and  keep your options opened ....Yes one requires a certain amount of money to survive and get ahead but money does not have to be involved in every transaction ....Fashion photography  can be an interesting  journey for photographer  and  model alike and  at the  end of a succesful journey of such nature - my guess is that you wont first think of the money you made but rather the friendships you gained and the interesting people you met .

bpvalentine wrote:
When you are talking about established and sought after photographers and models, I image corporations for perfume and underwear and coke and whoever pay them to work together.  I can't imagine somebody like Kate Moss pays a photographer to shoot her or that a photographer like Avedon had to pay a model in many decades.

No we are talking about when a model or a photographer is just starting  out and meets another model or photographer who is just starting out or is more established

Well you probably have heard the Claudia Schiffer story ( dont know if it true or not ) How Karl Lagerfeld discovered her walking down the street or someth ing like that...
Karl being not only one of the great fashion designers of our time but also a pretty good photgrapher himself ( I think most  of those great designers would be if they had tiem to pick up a camera - they see things in a different way than the average person ....

Lapis wrote:
While I do many paid shoots, I just don't understand what this obsession with money is. If you look at the statistics, most photographers and models can't be in it for the money....very few of either make their sole income from it.

Agreed.  If it's all about the money, it would seem to be a lot smarter to go to law school or medical school instead.

But this is more fun 

Brian Diaz wrote:
Corinne Day and Kate Moss were shooting together before either of them were successful.  I sincerely doubt either were paid.

Bingo!

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

E|||B wrote:
Who the hell is Richard Avedon?

Your ignorance is ASTOUNDING!

Forget the fact that you don't take your photography much less any photography seriousely, to be on a website like ModelMayhem and not know who Richard Avedon is would be like you, a skateboarder, not knowing who Tony Hawk is. 

You enjoy Skateboarding, I'm sure you know who Tony Hawk is.
You enjoy Motorcycling, I'm sure you know who Jeremy McGrath is.
You enjoy Photography, you should know who Avedon is...

Patrick Walberg wrote:
True story: 

When Lauren Hutton was starting out, she wanted to shoot with a rising star photograher by the name Richard Avedon very badly!  However Richard was not interested in shooting with her.  Lauren was a hard worker ... she would take "tests" and low paying gigs that other models turned their nose up at.   

Eventually Lauren got signed by Fords and was sent to Richard for a "test" shoot.  Therefore, he HAD to shoot her!  At first they were having a hard time "clicking" but then in conversation with her, Richard asked what Lauren did for fun in the Florida swamps where she grew up?  She told him that as a little girl she like to hop like a frog, and proceeded to show him ... that's when he got those classic pictures of her hunched on her legs about to hop. 

So their shoot was a test, and no money was exchanged.  IMHO  They both went on to change the face of the modeling/photography industry as we know it!

It goes to show that passion and hard work is important ... perhaps more important than focusing on money?

But didn't Richard get paid from the Ford Agency ?

Hamza wrote:
You enjoy Motorcycling, I'm sure you know who Jeremy McGrath is.

Jeremy McGrath?

E|||B wrote:

Hamza wrote:
You enjoy Motorcycling, I'm sure you know who Jeremy McGrath is.

Jeremy McGrath?

Okay let's try Troy Bayliss or Indian Larry????