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Models taking advantage of TFCDs ?
I only shoot TFCD. I purchase my own supplies. I make sure that my correspondences are worded so that any intelligence level is able to comprehend how I work and I am always prepared atleast 30 minutes prior to any shoot. It never fails, time and time again, the model is late, some times not ever showing up. I receive emails or phone calls from models who expect me to print all images out within 30 days or they want each image photoshopped to death, along with supplying MUA and hair. I supply my paints, backgrounds, lights and camera. I am not a day spa. I am not against paying a model or being paid for my work but I am worried that the majority of models on any site or agency feel that they are to be paid and have things supplied to them. But there has to come a point to when enough is enough. Atleast half the models I have shot show up looking like they just crawled out from under a bridge, looking nothing like the images on any of their pages. Then they expect the "Magic Image Fairy" to pop out and make them so beautiful. No effort on their part. I give the model an unedited CD/DVD after each session prior to them leaving. All the sudden they want all the images photoshopped or sized differently. I dont think so. I enjoy photography very much but I refuse to be used and abused by people who feel the photogrpaher is some toy for them. Perhaps if models opened their eyes and would look around to all the expense photographers put into a shoot, perhaps they would be more respectful of a TFCD shoot. Jul 14 05 09:38 pm Link I feel your pain. Although the models who are like that probably wouldn't have the good sense to read this post. Best thing I can suggest is, try to get a sense of how professional they are beforehand. If they have links to other photographers, follow that link & ask, "Hey, I've seen you've worked w/ so & so. What was your experience w/ working w/ her?" Ask for references w/ people they've worked w/. The more you work w/ net models, the better your flake radar will become. I'm sure there are flakey photographers to but just focus on what YOU can do. Y'know? Jul 14 05 10:30 pm Link I am just grateful there are good models who still do TFP/TFCD. What if all models decided to start charging? Where would we be then? I would go broke trying to build my portfolio if I had to pay hundreds of dollars each time I wanted to shoot with a model. Agree to what will be given ahead of time and don't work with someone agin if you don't like them, and just be glad you didn"t have to pay to use them. Jul 14 05 10:30 pm Link Posted by MyLeah: Last sentence bolded and italicized because it needs more emphasis. Jul 14 05 10:31 pm Link I see part of the problem, you're only shooting nudes. That brings an entirely different mindset to the shoot. But all of the issues you mentioned should be resolved prior to you getting together. Just FYI, I've shot over a hundred models, both paid (they paid) and TFP. Never has anyone asked for a specific crop. Paul Jul 14 05 10:37 pm Link wow, fyre1704, that's an incredibly mature thought for a model your age. I wish more models had the "40,000 feet" view you have. Most that I have worked with do, but most that I see at these sites, make uneducated demands. I can't even give you a disc immediately after the shoot, my camera only shoots RAW images and I have to convert them in my computer. I try to get images back to the model within a week, just to keep from getting backed up. I also pay my make-up artist to make me and the model look good. My offer is if models are willing to do a TFP/CD with me, they get my concentration, a make-up artists eye, and prompt turn around on images. It drives me nuts when I see "models" with webcam/cam phone images demanding $$$$ for shoots that they'll show up with looking like MyLeah describes.... pardon my rant... Jul 14 05 10:54 pm Link First things first...this is Jessica's MOM, Peggy, not Jess. She's off to bed. One of the best photographers that she has worked with had a great TFP/CD set up. Before the shoot, we sat down and he took out a folder for us to keep. In the folder was a flyer with his usual rates for when he charges, a couple business cards, a release form and also a TFP agreement. OK, this sounds like a lot but I was impressed because he went over it all WITH us and asked before the shoot started, if we had any objections or questions. He also said that within 1 week he would send us a disc with all of the shots unedited, as well as within 2 weeks, she would receive 4 shots of her choice, edited and photo shopped or whatever. Those 4 shots would be printed 11x13 professional quality and portfolio ready. He even gave her several choices of background effects/filters for the 4 shots she picked. All of the unedited shots were great but the day we received the disc, we sat down and chose those 4 shots with ease. He followed through with everything we asked. Now, the best part was that when he sent the shots, he sent her a thank you note for working with him with a note that said if she liked them and wanted more, he would provide them at a discount rate. We honestly couldn't have been happier and felt that his offer was more than fair. Anyone who would try to abuse a photographers good nature and abilities is beyond me. This man provided her with wonderful work, 4 edited shots to her specifications and more if she wanted them, at discount for goodness sakes. I believe that making sure all the cards are on the table up front, makes for a much smoother and less complicated and stressful experience. Hope that was helpful. Peggy Jul 14 05 10:58 pm Link I feel your pain .... Jul 14 05 11:02 pm Link Peggy, you make a great point with description of a postive experience. I have always tried to have as many converstaions prior to a shoot as possible and so far it has worked for me. I have had a couple of models show up who looked like the images they had posted had been taken a few years prior, and even then, I bit my tongue, was polite, completed the shoot, and said thank you very much. Jul 14 05 11:07 pm Link "Models usually don't have to pay for anything and take into account of anything. Sometimes, not even their own action. A lot thinks that they've been doing this long enough to start demanding. Those are the ones without character. If you really don't want to get into another situation like that again, I suggest you get to know your model a little before you do shoots with them." Models in general if it's TFCD don't get a stylist...so u have to pay for wardrobe, travel, hair, sometimes you don't even get a makeup artist..so makeup as well..I have yet to do a TFP/TEST shoot that has been absolutely free on my part..tfp always cost something. That is fine, I can always write it off as an expense at the end of the year. As for not having character because you're a model who's been in the biz for a while..I think you're totally wrong. With age comes experience, with experience comes wisdom, when you reach a professional level you should be treated as such..I'm not talking about naomi campbell diva fits..I'm talking about what you bring to the table as a experienced model over a newbie. as with any carreer the more you know you skill and trade, the better you are and the more value you have,senority does have benefits. And with any job once you reach the next level and learned from it ,there are certain things you can ask for because you are that level higher, usually in most jobs it's more pay, this is a profession, I would think most people would want to get paid. Although I agree some models are way too demanding and should be more considerate to the photographer (perhaps splitting costs?) I don't see how that makes you have no character? Jul 14 05 11:22 pm Link I agree with sibyl, but I'm questioning the demands of the rookies, not models with experience or their character Jul 14 05 11:46 pm Link Posted by Rick Edwards: yeah I was actually referring to Fyre1704...her reply the part I qouted, it doesn't make sense to me... Jul 14 05 11:53 pm Link Probably be best if photographer's in this field either 1) IF you want to work with a model that interests you, just inquire if they are interested in shooting timeforprint, if not, oh well... YOU absolutely HAVE to photograph the subject??, expect to offer them money, how much?? I don't know, the only time I ever paid a subject was for her gas to meet me half-way, the photos did not make it in my portfolio, so you live and you learn (found out later, the subject had an adult web site, so even then, the photos weren't going in the 'ol peeortfolio). I would just have a great images on my web site, sorta stay low-key & wait the subjects out, maybe you will, maybe you won't - and always have a back-up plan, even though everything has become digitized & blazingly fast, it's still business as usual. I hope this made sense Jul 15 05 09:43 am Link I ALWAYS have a meeting with the model prior to any shoot. It is a pain in the butt to shoot a person cold. With never having met with them, you wouldnt know any flaws or quirks that they might have. Portfolio pics are meant to be good... With the right MUA you might not see th e mole she has on her neck. But in person you probably would notice it. That is just an example. I always explain what my TFP or paid shoots involve including what they will receive and when. I use a shoot agreement that states the exact time-frame for my sending of the pics/cd. Jul 15 05 01:47 pm Link Personally they are few photog's i've met before shooting. BUT i always make it a point to call them and chat when a shoot is decided.If you can't click on the phone then you definitally won't click in person. Only on 2 occasions have i had a MUA during TFP.As Sybl stated i think both party's put in a deal of money, but thats the name of the game right? I don't know about you guys but when this ceases to be fun for me there really isn't any point in doing it.Just my own 2 cents. Jul 15 05 02:03 pm Link Posted by MyLeah: The hardest lesson I've had to learn as a photographer is Patience. Not shooting is infinitely harder than shooting [esp. if you do it for artistic expression]. But the trick is to be as choosy as models are. I don't shoot very much, but the people I do work with are the ones who respect and understand what I do and why I do it. Your work should merit the same respect, and you should hold out until you find people who will give you that. It's not easy, but in the long run you'll like your models, your work and yourself much better. Jul 15 05 02:14 pm Link Posted by sibyl: I agree for the most part, however, one part I don't agree on is the experience giving you the "right" to demand. If the model has a lot of experience, shouldn't she be doing paid work rather than TFP? Better pay, right? Secondly, if the models want to show up looking like...a "dump" (for a lack of a better word) then she has not just no respect for herself, but no respect for the photographer as well. The photographer has been in the business for quite a while too, don't you think? Seniority like you said. If the model has the right to make demands, then the photographer should be able to as well. Not only that, the model and photographer should split the cost. Jul 15 05 09:53 pm Link "It's a TFP/CD, both parties should be respectful to each other. When I talk about character, I mean respect because that has a lot to do with everything."-Fyre1704 Same thing I was thinking. I thought of TFCD as something I can really take advantage of and also trying to learn a few things along the way. On a side note I wish shooters would say what they want to do during a shoot so I know how to prepare myself. Jul 15 05 10:58 pm Link Posted by Cardillo Photo: I shoot models from all over Ohio. It's hard enough setting up a shoot let alone if the model had to make two trips. If I see a mole, well, that's why's there's PS. Jul 15 05 11:24 pm Link I have seen some very disrespectful models over the 5 or 6 years that I have been modeling, and it really does upset me to see. I feel that if the photographer is giving up his own time, money, film, experience, etc. to work with the new models to help them with their portfolio, then the model should have a little respect for the photographer...no, strike that. She/he should have a LOT of respect for the photographer. While it is true that models do inquire some expenses for a shoot, whether it be new wardrobe, makeup, MUA, etc...it doesn't add up to what the photographer pays for his equipment, paper, lights, etc... I feel that even though it may be a tfp/tfcd shoot, the model should treat it as if she WERE getting paid to shoot. She should arrive on time and ready to work. If an MUA is to be used, the model should actually arrive EARLY, because in order for the MUA to do her job, she will need time to make the model look right. I also feel that it is wrong for the model to be demanding when it comes to her photos. If she wants them done right, she needs to be patient and let the photographer do his/her job. I have never personally demanded photoshopping or cropping be done on my photos. If the photographer feels it needs shopped, he will do it on his terms. I feel that if the model wants the photographer to do such things on her own part, she should pay a certain fee. It just seems right to me. Now, I also feel that if the model keeps up her bargain for the shoot, then so should the photographer. I have personally been jipped on photos that were promised from a shoot, and it made me very mad, because I had driven over 4 hours to do this specific shoot, I dished out my own hotel fees, meals, gas, etc...I had worked with 3 different photographers, shooting for about half a day, and one photographer only gave one photo (and did not even contact me to view any of the other shots), and another photographer sent me a link to maybe 4 photos. The other photographer never even supplied me with even one photo. Needless to say, that shoot was less beneficial to me than it was to the photographers in question. Now, I know not all photographers are like this, because I have worked with some wonderful ones since then. One, in fact, I am getting ready to work with again, and he is by far the best I have worked with yet. I guess what I'm trying to get to is this: the photographer/model relationship should be a 100%/100% relationship when it comes to being professional, and doing what you promise to do. The newer models should realize that you can't just jump into this line of work and expect to be paid big bucks without busting some tail first. If offered a tfp shoot, it is just that...it's not a reason to turn diva on everyone... Jul 15 05 11:40 pm Link Posted by MyLeah: Maybe you should mention this stuff on your site. What you supply what you don't supply how the images/CD goes, how long before they get edited images? and so on. Might make things easier for you. Also mention you don't care for flakes or models who will not show up at the EXACT time. Jul 16 05 12:05 am Link People get taken advantage of if they allow other people to take advantage of them. I feel Zen-like LOL hahahaha:)probably not original but that is how I feel about that:) Jul 16 05 12:09 am Link or my Dad used to always tell me..."Don't take sh*t from anybody". I miss my Dad  Jul 16 05 12:10 am Link I wasn't going to post any thing but then i said to my self. "self you gotta give this guy some advice". From one of the comments i read it mentioned you only do "NUDES" lucky guy if you get tfp nude shoots on a tfp basis. Most modes make it a point to charge for thier nudes shoots, no matter if they are amature or not. I have gotten lucky enough that my work shows what level of photography i am willing to to do and accept. So I do get lots of offers to shoot lingerie and nudes on a tfp basis. You need to advertize your self as a professional photographer and show off your work, If you are doing PLAYBOY OR MAXIUM style of phtoogrpahy hey go for it but if your pics look like Ray Charles would have takent them God Bless his sould then i would sugjest you give the models what they ask for. Communication is tops. Before they sign that Models release let them know what your terms are and what or how far you are willling to work with each model. If they don't like it then as the saying goes.... "NEXT"... and take it from there. Take care and good luck. God knows we all need luck in this world. Bravo Magic Image Photography. (I carry my own Magic) lol Jul 16 05 12:18 am Link Posted by Fyre1704: Posted by MyLeah: Last sentence bolded and italicized because it needs more emphasis. Nice to hear from a model who's mature and appreciative and appears to have her ego under control. Jul 17 05 05:22 pm Link Posted by Herb Way: Nice to hear from a model who's mature and appreciative and appears to have her ego under control. Clone me? For what? There are a lot of people who think the same way as I do. It just so happen that most of them are photographers. Jul 17 05 05:44 pm Link Posted by Fyre1704: Posted by MyLeah: Last sentence bolded and italicized because it needs more emphasis. Fyre, after reading your post, I'm sure that just about every photographer would want to work with you. It's a relief to know that there are models like you. Thanks for respecting our work. -Jennifer Maria Jul 18 05 06:02 pm Link The majority of my shoots have been for models associated with agencies. Those shoots have all been TFCD. Generally, an all day session with 2-3 outfit changes that has been supplied by me from top to bottom including shoes and accessories. The CD of "as shot" images was supplied to the agency before weeks end. If a location used was someones personal property I would supply an image of my choice as a finished print as a thank you for the location usage. There was never a release signed. A signed release means that I intend to use the image for commercial use and the agency would bill ME for the model. No release means the images are intended for promotional use only. Since these shoots are tests I have had numerous models cancelled (the day before) by the agency because the model got a paid booking. I have also had to cancel a model while in transit because the weather was not as expected. So I just keep trying the same agency or other agencies and generally can find available models. Once I have an arranged model they are on time, come with no makeup on and may bring shoes if requested and available. I have never had to supply images to any unusual requirements. The models were usually compensated for transportation and fed lunch. Several have gotten into magazines or commercial assignments as a result of these images (recently, one model was placed in Vogue and another got several national commercials). Also, recently I got a model an opportunity to get into one of the top 5 modeling agencies in NY by simply providing key information. On the other hand, the models I have worked with that are independents have made unusual requests. Anything from mileage rates (greater than current IRS rates) instead of gas or mass transit to requiring 9x12 prints. These models are often less skilled than the agency new faces and tend to yield images less suitable for commercial promotion. Tests done with these models are usually for training MUAs or building MUA portfolios because those MUAs in turn pull me into paying projects. After training we will usually seek out an agency model to do commercially viable test projects. The only time I pay a model is when that model can produce an image that is commercially saleable and is part of a project that provides revenue. Jul 19 05 02:41 am Link Posted by modelmayhemstoryhubcom: Thats the way it should be!! Jul 19 05 02:50 am Link bingo! this is a lesson i learned after signing with an agency. the web, at large, has many models and photographers all twisted and trying to make piles of money off of each other instead of working together to get some paying (read: commercial) clients. you know what they say. if someone doesn't "get it", NEXT!  Posted by modelmayhemstoryhubcom: Jul 19 05 07:35 am Link Posted by MichaelBell: I agree with everything that has been said so far. Trust me, after 25 years of shooting models, I've seen it all. Yes the world wide web has had some really bad effects to our business, but it has also increased opportunities for everyone. Jul 19 05 07:39 am Link I like how he did it. But the one difference for me is that you get either a cd or a couple prints not both. The cost of the prints come out of my pocket so two is the max I give out. Most go for the cd because it has all the images but what these models don't realise is that they are not touched up or cropped and most models do know how to use photoshop. Hell, I barely know how to use photoshop. Jul 19 05 07:44 am Link Posted by MichaelBell: what would happen if all the photographers stopped doing TFP..i'll tell you, you might be able to recover some of your overhead in creating images...the MUAs have collectively put thier foot down and stopped doing TFPs in my area..i have had models tell me they cant afford my rates because they are hiring an MUA... Jul 19 05 07:46 am Link for the most part, this is true in Atlanta area as well. but you know how that goes. what if the models (the ones who are actually capable of producing commercially viable images) stop doing tfps as well? yep, you'd pay them too, just like we sometimes pay photogs. give and take, right? if it's not beneficial to you, i would definitely expect you to charge models. when your portfolio is strong, you don't *need* to chase *free* shoots, right?  Posted by Doug Swinskey: Jul 19 05 07:54 am Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: Many photographers in my area have stopped. I continue to shoot TFCD (which makes my wife crazy) because that is my way of test shooting with a new model. Jul 19 05 07:58 am Link |
